confirmed new stuff in exp. 46.

[Irish. 4886]

Rare = more effort/time/risk expended to get item X.

 

So, there has to be a reward for said expenditure of risk to acquire said rare item.

 

Hence why they should be, and need to be good. People just need to accept that. And I'm not sure why folks don't, because DayZ is all about inequality and is very anti-balance in the traditional sense (even though it is prudent in certain scenarios).

 

Im not saying they should not be good. I want mil-spec weaponry and I want to find it within reason at any mil base. I basically want the mod experience in a polished package. 

 

I dont like the concept of rare, not because I want the weapons.. its because of what it does to the game in the end. If you have a squad of 3 that have all acquired the best weapons, and have been playing long enough to use tactics well .. who is to stop them? Well, in the mod just 1 man could. By himself. Because he had a good chance of being equally armed and if he got lucky, let alone good tactics, he may just come out on top.

 

Again, take the mods.. nothing was truly rare save for the really large caliber sniper rifles and the elusive NVG's. Even then they were obtainable within reason if you looked long enough in the right places.. but if just one guy had the right NVG set-up at night.. everyone else was basically screwed unless they were adjusting their video settings to make the dark go away magically.

 

The SA shows promise of being much worse in many aspects due to 1 person being so heavily armed with AKM, Drum, PSO, and grenades... against someone with a bat and a bow and arrow (based on their ideas of central loot control and making items extremely rare). The guy with the bow and arrow has little to no chance if he has been spotted.. so then you end up with the inevitable camp fest near spawn points and loot places of interest. A well armed player gets smart and learns to just wait for the loot to come to him.. you're the guy looking to finally loot a heli crash for your first time and BAM! "YOU ARE DEAD." Easy kill for Mr. Well Armed Player.. insanely frustrating moment for Mr. I just want to have some fun here folks.. it took that poor guy 10 hours just to get his bow and arrow, and crafted pack and cooking items gathered.. Now Mr. Armed to the Teeth player has himself and easy meal, restock and back to the drawing board to do it again over and over until hopefully one day he makes a colossal mistake and someone finally gets him. So its basically a race to get good with the weapons and whoever finds them first will rule the land. I know this is a fact because it used to be my play style.. hunt others in high traffic areas after arming myself to the teeth so that I can find the loot that is tough to come by sometimes like matches and whatnot. I will go right back to it eventually if they make this game the way they are talking about.. Ill eventually find what I need to murder anyone I want.

 

..Or you could allow players to have some fun, like in the mods, and play how they want.. if anyone can get an AKM with 75rd. Drum within an hour or 2 then nobody will NEED to kill for one if they see a player carrying it, nor will players NEED to camp spots to kill others, or NEED to server hop or exploit the loot respawn system.. they can do what they wish and not be encumbered by mechanics. I dont think you should just find weapons everywhere.. but if you look hard, you should find it within a game session or 2. Not within 50 or more.. otherwise only the prosperous will prosper.  

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Rare = more effort/time/risk expended to get item X.

 

So, there has to be a reward for said expenditure of risk to acquire said rare item.

 

Hence why they should be, and need to be good. People just need to accept that. And I'm not sure why folks don't, because DayZ is all about inequality and is very anti-balance in the traditional sense (even though it is prudent in certain scenarios).

 

I of course agree with you about making it so that firing a weapon causes zombies to jump you. That's essentially what I mean when I say "add consequence" (among other factors) to killing folks, and is exactly what I mean by consequence not being "a punishment." People always jump to conclusions when I say "killing people needs to have consequences" and then reply "the humanity system didn't work." Well, duh, because consequence is different from punishment... and there are more natural forms of "consequence" than humanity points.

 

 

Yeah, not sure how anyone could possibly... ever... think that DayZ mod took place in the eighties.

 

There are so many blatant anachronisms pointing the opposite direction (i.e. M4A1s, EOTechs, MOLLE interface gear [see the standard vest for mod characters], AS50s, M16A4s, etc.)

 

I mean, theoretically it could be taking place in a fictional timeline divorced from that of ARMA II (a la Black Ops) but the evidence available doesn't support that.

Well, people assume that consequences always have to be negative because of how it tends to be used in common language. However, the word 'consequence', is essentially a synonym for; 'result'.

I think shooting grenade launchers would actually be quite interesting in this position. The actual firing wouldn't make too much noise, but the impact would certainly draw plenty of zombies to a location (whether it fired high explosive, smoke, or flare rounds, they're still going to have a high attraction rate). That would make for some interesting gameplay; using grenade launchers to guide zombies away from (using smoke or flares, as you'd obviously not waste a 40mm HE trying to direct them) or towards a position.

If you did try to use an HE round (or any explosive in general), you'd attract many more zombies than just from a simple gunshot. That's why I don't think having M203s/GP25s, M79s, M72s, or RPG-7s is that bad of an idea. They're not "overpowered" at all, if done correctly.

It's not like we're asking for Javelins, Stingers, or M202 FLASH launchers, people.

[Katana67 2907]

Im not saying they should not be good. I want mil-spec weaponry and I want to find it within reason at any mil base. I basically want the mod experience in a polished package. 

 

I dont like the concept of rare, not because I want the weapons.. its because of what it does to the game in the end. If you have a squad of 3 that have all acquired the best weapons, and have been playing long enough to use tactics well .. who is to stop them? Well, in the mod just 1 man could. By himself. Because he had a good chance of being equally armed and if he got lucky, let alone good tactics, he may just come out on top.

 

Again, take the mods.. nothing was truly rare save for the really large caliber sniper rifles and the elusive NVG's. Even then they were obtainable within reason if you looked long enough in the right places.. but if just one guy had the right NVG set-up at night.. everyone else was basically screwed unless they were adjusting their video settings to make the dark go away magically.

 

The SA shows promise of being much worse in many aspects due to 1 person being so heavily armed with AKM, Drum, PSO, and grenades... against someone with a bat and a bow and arrow (based on their ideas of central loot control and making items extremely rare). The guy with the bow and arrow has little to no chance if he has been spotted.. so then you end up with the inevitable camp fest near spawn points and loot places of interest. A well armed player gets smart and learns to just wait for the loot to come to him.. you're the guy looking to finally loot a heli crash for your first time and BAM! "YOU ARE DEAD." Easy kill for Mr. Well Armed Player.. insanely frustrating moment for Mr. I just want to have some fun here folks.. it took that poor guy 10 hours just to get his bow and arrow, and crafted pack and cooking items gathered.. Now Mr. Armed to the Teeth player has himself and easy meal, restock and back to the drawing board to do it again over and over until hopefully one day he makes a colossal mistake and someone finally gets him. So its basically a race to get good with the weapons and whoever finds them first will rule the land. I know this is a fact because it used to be my play style.. hunt others in high traffic areas after arming myself to the teeth so that I can find the loot that is tough to come by sometimes like matches and whatnot. I will go right back to it eventually if they make this game the way they are talking about.. Ill eventually find what I need to murder anyone I want.

 

..Or you could allow players to have some fun, like in the mods, and play how they want.. if anyone can get an AKM with 75rd. Drum within an hour or 2 then nobody will NEED to kill for one if they see a player carrying it, nor will players NEED to camp spots to kill others, or NEED to server hop or exploit the loot respawn system.. they can do what they wish and not be encumbered by mechanics. I dont think you should just find weapons everywhere.. but if you look hard, you should find it within a game session or 2. Not within 50 or more.. otherwise only the prosperous will prosper.  

 

Well, the prosperous (ostensibly) devoted more effort/time/risk to getting what allows them to prosper (i.e. rare gear) than the un-prosperous. The only time a problem arises, in my opinion, is when the effort/time/risk to get something that's supposedly "rare" (and more importantly, powerful) is not proportional to the advantages offered by said item. Moreover, it is also a problem when the use of said "rare" items becomes inconsequential.

 

Take NVGs, they were relatively easy to come by in the mod (although comparatively they were indeed rare). Yet, they offered a massive advantage at night (ignoring the gamma tweaks, sorry for all the parenthetical add-ons haha). And they were just 100% effective as well. You didn't have to find, loot, and swap out batteries to keep it up. You didn't have to really do anything to keep your perfect-vision-at-night-100%-effective-cross-server-persistent NVGs going. They didn't degrade over time at all. That and you could just server hop to loot farm, so any notions of rarity were thereby skewed.

 

I do sort of agree with you, that these things should be made rare... but not so rare as to offset things in favor of the few. However, I do place an emphasis on rewarding the diligent. But in the case of most things, and indeed DayZ, it'd be less of a "who tried hardest" scenario and more of a "who got there first" scenario.

 

I wouldn't necessarily have any problems with that approach, if simply having these "rare" items incurred a consequence that was relative to their advantageous capability (however small or large). So, for example, if I came across a Mk 11... if I had to first repair the weapon itself, find a decent amount of 7.62x51, loot specific Mk 11 magazines, just to get the thing operational... then it becomes a bit more feasible to have these things not be hyper-rare. Likewise, if their use (not just your having these items) wasn't inconsequential, then they wouldn't be as blatant.

 

The opposite can be seen with the FAL in the mod. It was rare, relative to supposedly rare weapons like the DMR... yet it was worse (by being less flexible). So nobody used it.

 

I disagree with Torchia's (and therefore Dean's) approach to things like a humble SVD being "regulated" via their upcoming loot management system. Personally, I think that system should only be reserved for the management of hyper-rare items. But, most items should be off of that list. If I had my way, I'd make it so that every weapon type (and certain types of gear) would be able to be looted without regulation. But the really good versions of said weapon type would be reserved for that fixed loot management list.

 

So, you'd have M14s, SVDs, and G3s floating around. But that Mk 17 would be a restricted and limited item. Not because it's just patently better than an SVD, but because it's marginally better in a certain area. It wouldn't necessarily kill folks faster per-shot, but it may be more flexible in terms of its application.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Katana67

[barnabus 1708]

640Mb of update to make a hat green when it was red? Don't let the haters hear about that. ;)

 

Anyway, I don't suppose the frame rates are any better? That would be nice.

Oh, just wait til they see what's become of NEAF, I predict much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[Irish. 4886]

Well, the prosperous (ostensibly)...

 

-snip-

 

I agree on many fronts of your retort.. in that scenario I imagine things like the M4 being prevalent, but the MP parts and acog as well as mags being on the "rare" list. That is of course just an example of how I read it. And I think that would work out really well. A good balance must be found between rewarding the hard working, and neglecting the player who maybe has less time. Like binoculars and the Blaze rifle are easy to find.. to counter the sniper who has found himself a SVD with 8x scope after 15 hours of searching for and building it. If you play your cards right, you can get him just as easy as he can get you.. but that balance must be found properly. I have faith that this community will be so loud that eventually a mutual agreement can be found between devs and players on loot spawns and rarity.

[Katana67 2907]

I agree on many fronts of your retort.. in that scenario I imagine things like the M4 being prevalent, but the MP parts and acog as well as mags being on the "rare" list. That is of course just an example of how I read it. And I think that would work out really well. A good balance must be found between rewarding the hard working, and neglecting the player who maybe has less time. Like binoculars and the Blaze rifle are easy to find.. to counter the sniper who has found himself a SVD with 8x scope after 15 hours of searching for and building it. If you play your cards right, you can get him just as easy as he can get you.. but that balance must be found properly. I have faith that this community will be so loud that eventually a mutual agreement can be found between devs and players on loot spawns and rarity.

 

Agreed. And I just think, as healthy/necessary as discussion is at this point, it's just too early. I mean, it's really deceptive because we feel like we've been playing DayZ for two years and we suppose a sense of what should be rare. But we haven't really been playing anything coherent, and with the turnover of development systems, there's a lot of stuff that needs to happen before we can get to the point where we can actually offer full feedback on rarity.

 

I do think we need to have a discussion about what weapons folks feel need to be rare, and/or relegated to the "loot management" system. Because like I said, I think the criteria for entering something into the "loot management" system should be based on flexibility and not necessarily lethality.

 

And perhaps, converse to what I've been saying, rare weapons could be easier to maintain as a potential advantage. Whereas the lesser types are more plentiful, easy to rearm, but more difficult to keep running. Just a thought, haven't really articulated an argument for that position.

[Bororm 1156]

But you don't want to search through 100 gun spawns to find 1 can of beans

 

That's not how the loot tables work.

[Irish. 4886]

And perhaps, converse to what I've been saying, rare weapons could be easier to maintain as a potential advantage. Whereas the lesser types are more plentiful, easy to rearm, but more difficult to keep running. Just a thought, haven't really articulated an argument for that position.

 

That is an excellent proposition. I have been a fan of the "larger the mag count, the more it rare it is to find" idea as well as your own. To elaborate, the AKM may be easy to find, the ammo is slightly harder to find, and the mags are very rare. The 75 rd. drum is like a unicorn, rarely seen and often spoke of. This way you could say have a high end weapon quickly, one that is easily maintained as an AK should be, but you have to reload it manually cartridge by cartridge unless you happen to have spent enough time looking for a magazine. And only the uberleets would have multiple mags that they had killed to obtain over long periods of time. This would be a great balance as long as more common firearms were easy to arm, but as you stated difficult to maintain. Which quite truthfully in most cases would ring true to their real life counterparts. Even further things like an AK can be drug through the mud. An M4 has known overheating issues after long firefights. Most pistols need constant cleaning to be accurate at any distance, etc.. may just be things that they can offer down the road so all we can do is contemplate, and practice patience through this process. 

[kakysas666 191]

I'd like to confirm that now m4 sounds differently. More like AKM.

[kircheschm 6]

LOL Very extremily nice job for the DEVS, finally the tends... S2 this game

[Irish. 4886]

LOL Very extremily nice job for the DEVS, finally the tends... S2 this game

 

Im not so sure the Dude abides.. or even understands what that means

 

[Weyland Yutani (DayZ) 1159]

Like the 4th Mosin nerf…to Red Rider BB Gun proportions, but we're getting grenade launchers? Makes sense...

[gibonez 3633]

Like the 4th Mosin nerf…to Red Rider BB Gun proportions, but we're getting grenade launchers? Makes sense...

 

How is the mosin nerfed ?

[frosti 2165]

How is the mosin nerfed ?

 

While introduced mosin killed with 1 shot in any part of the body at any range. Week after that systematic nerfs happened.

 

It took 2 shots to kill in any part of the body, then it started to matter if you place this 2 shots in legs or torso to kill.

 

And now to kill someone with mosin you usually need at least 3-4 shots.

 

Personally I often tank 2 torso shots from mosin in military buildings while chasing mosin guys with my 30 mag AKM.

[gibonez 3633]

While introduced mosin killed with 1 shot in any part of the body at any range. Week after that systematic nerfs happened.

 

It took 2 shots to kill in any part of the body, then it started to matter if you place this 2 shots in legs or torso to kill.

 

And now to kill someone with mosin you usually need at least 3-4 shots.

 

Personally I often tank 2 torso shots from mosin in military buildings while chasing mosin guys with my 30 mag AKM.

 

I thought that was all due to the crappy damage model in game not the mosin itself being nerfed.

[mushroom911 14]

Grenades are a much needed addition. On hardcore servers the one with a defenders advantage can take down 10~ people before being taken out. And that is usually due to either being overrun or running out of ammo.
2 people with AKM's can hold the apartments in berezino against 10+ people for as long as their supplies last(seen this happen). The grenade will allow players an alternative to bum rushing, which is great. And will add that extra bit of fear in the camper's mind, like: "What if the guy outside is cooking a grenade right now?".

Also more stuff = more ways to play the game. Plus If the grenade launchers really do come ingame then we will have a bunch of people blowing up their friends because they never learned how to use them in arma.

[Bororm 1156]

While introduced mosin killed with 1 shot in any part of the body at any range. Week after that systematic nerfs happened.

 

It took 2 shots to kill in any part of the body, then it started to matter if you place this 2 shots in legs or torso to kill.

 

And now to kill someone with mosin you usually need at least 3-4 shots.

 

Personally I often tank 2 torso shots from mosin in military buildings while chasing mosin guys with my 30 mag AKM.

 

That's not really a mosin specific nerf, it's just that the way damage is done has been affected by items.  Every gun does less damage than at the start of the SA, because items/clothing mitigate some of the damage now.

When the SA launched, the FNX killed in one shot too.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Bororm

[frosti 2165]

I thought that was all due to the crappy damage model in game not the mosin itself being nerfed.

 Well that's also possible.

 

on the begining it took 2 shots from m4a1 to kill a  guy, so I had fun double tapping people.

 

Then the damage absorbtion by items was introduced and it was 2-4 shots to kill.

 

Now it's 4 shots at freshpawn and 6-8 at a guy with lot's of clotches on him, specally when he has vest.

[frosti 2165]

Grenades are a much needed addition. On hardcore servers the one with a defenders advantage can take down 10~ people before being taken out. And that is usually due to either being overrun or running out of ammo.

2 people with AKM's can hold the apartments in berezino against 10+ people for as long as their supplies last(seen this happen). The grenade will allow players an alternative to bum rushing, which is great. And will add that extra bit of fear in the camper's mind, like: "What if the guy outside is cooking a grenade right now?".

Also more stuff = more ways to play the game. Plus If the grenade launchers really do come ingame then we will have a bunch of people blowing up their friends because they never learned how to use them in arma.

 

I don't get it why is that a  hardcore server issue? Becouse people can't peek inside the building with 3pp camera?

[Munson_fry (DayZ) 312]

mosin isnt very valid anymore ....

 

we camped berezino a few days ago to shoot us some nice tasty rooftopsnipers.

we had to wait 3min ! and the first showed up on the roof of 4 story flat.   

we had our distances measured out (450m)

mosins with lrs, compensators bipod ( everyting pristine ) and started firing 

 

2 possibilitys : 1. we didnt hit him 

                       2. we did hit him but he did not die 

 

we shot both 4 times on the guy and no way we could haved missed him he was prone and there was no obstacle in our line of fire.

 

we changed positions and repeated the process...

 

we didnt manage to kill a single soul ( with the mosin ) that day.

 

 

after that i switched to sks that brought me the  longest killstreak in my DAY Z history 

 

great gun! but now i followed the hype and got myself an AKM like all the " badasses " out there  ;)

Edited June 26, 2014 by Munson_fry

[frosti 2165]

 

mosin isnt very valid anymore ....

 

I think mosin or/and mosin bullet need a stealth buff.

[Element47 2480]

Haha, the proverbial racism against military weapons continues.

 

As if they somehow had sex with your mother and beat up your father, and thus warrant vitriolic and unfounded "they'd ruin gameplay categorically" statements. With little argument to back said statement up.

 

It isn't Mk 48s and AKs that encouraged folks to kill people. It's the fact that there's no consequence to killing someone, period. Not a punishment. But there's no thought process. It's, "Oh, there's another person... BLAM... /loot.... /continuelivinglife." Doesn't matter if you've got a Mosin or a DMR, the process is the same.

 

Likewise, they can include anything inasmuch as it is made rare. Period. There's a difference between including a variety of weapons, and making them rare. People have a hard time differentiating between the two concepts for some reason. If it's less likely to be encountered overall, then it will be seen less often. That was one of the issues of the mod, and current issues with the standalone. Ammunition is entirely too common, thus making killing someone inconsequential (there are more ways that this is true as well). And the tired "Well, it could be exploited" excuse is the absolute most illogical thing I've ever heard.

 

Well no shit, things can be exploited. Should we remove M4A1's then? Or Mosins? Because someone could dupe them, ya' know! Oh lerd! And damn that "fixed loot management" system, people are just going to exploit it! Tell Dean to stop all production ASAP!

 

Lets work on fixing exploiting then, shall we? Instead of artificially limiting the game based on the fear that someone might exploit something.

 

Grenade launchers, yes please.

 

i am against grenade launchers, and disagree with some things there, but you make a good point. have beans.

 

Im not saying they should not be good. I want mil-spec weaponry and I want to find it within reason at any mil base. I basically want the mod experience in a polished package.

I dont like the concept of rare, not because I want the weapons.. its because of what it does to the game in the end. If you have a squad of 3 that have all acquired the best weapons, and have been playing long enough to use tactics well .. who is to stop them? Well, in the mod just 1 man could. By himself. Because he had a good chance of being equally armed and if he got lucky, let alone good tactics, he may just come out on top.

Again, take the mods.. nothing was truly rare save for the really large caliber sniper rifles and the elusive NVG's. Even then they were obtainable within reason if you looked long enough in the right places.. but if just one guy had the right NVG set-up at night.. everyone else was basically screwed unless they were adjusting their video settings to make the dark go away magically.

The SA shows promise of being much worse in many aspects due to 1 person being so heavily armed with AKM, Drum, PSO, and grenades... against someone with a bat and a bow and arrow (based on their ideas of central loot control and making items extremely rare). The guy with the bow and arrow has little to no chance if he has been spotted.. so then you end up with the inevitable camp fest near spawn points and loot places of interest. A well armed player gets smart and learns to just wait for the loot to come to him.. you're the guy looking to finally loot a heli crash for your first time and BAM! "YOU ARE DEAD." Easy kill for Mr. Well Armed Player.. insanely frustrating moment for Mr. I just want to have some fun here folks.. it took that poor guy 10 hours just to get his bow and arrow, and crafted pack and cooking items gathered.. Now Mr. Armed to the Teeth player has himself and easy meal, restock and back to the drawing board to do it again over and over until hopefully one day he makes a colossal mistake and someone finally gets him. So its basically a race to get good with the weapons and whoever finds them first will rule the land. I know this is a fact because it used to be my play style.. hunt others in high traffic areas after arming myself to the teeth so that I can find the loot that is tough to come by sometimes like matches and whatnot. I will go right back to it eventually if they make this game the way they are talking about.. Ill eventually find what I need to murder anyone I want.

..Or you could allow players to have some fun, like in the mods, and play how they want.. if anyone can get an AKM with 75rd. Drum within an hour or 2 then nobody will NEED to kill for one if they see a player carrying it, nor will players NEED to camp spots to kill others, or NEED to server hop or exploit the loot respawn system.. they can do what they wish and not be encumbered by mechanics. I dont think you should just find weapons everywhere.. but if you look hard, you should find it within a game session or 2. Not within 50 or more.. otherwise only the prosperous will prosper.

there is a large issue here, a contradiction if you want - not in your post, but in the game.

balancing for PvP means creating a level field. But this would mean easy and fast access to the same (end-tier) equipment. Which is fundamentally against a scavenging/loot oriented gameplay, which draws its appeal from a long, challenging hunt for the elusive "epic lewtz".

trying to accomplish both will ruin both.

the equation above ignores the environment, because it is irrelevant at the moment. If my hopes come true, you will rather carry survival-oriented items with you than a second drum mag. you will rather shoot a bow silently than bring a horde of -deadly- infected to the yard thanks to gunshot sound. but thats something not close to reality at the moment. we will see what the future brings, and THEN we can argue about PvP balance and item rarity ;)

Edited June 26, 2014 by e47

[gibonez 3633]

i am against grenade launchers, and disagree with some things there, but you make a good point. have beans.

 

There is nothing wrong with grenade launchers if they are put in correctly.

 

They have a relatively small blast radius , limited range and heck they dont even detonate if you fire them at something close.

 

Problem is how games like COD portray them as one shot kill point blank weapons.

 

If added faithfully they will not be a problem as 99 percent of rounds will go harmlessly into the ground as the shooter was trying to shoot it at someone within 30 m.

 

I do kinda wish the first grenade launcher was this beautiful beast. Such a classic and iconic beauty.

 

Edited June 26, 2014 by gibonez

[blacklabel79 949]

fnx and mosin still can oneshot kill if you hit them square in the face. ( iam not a Long range guy, id say most Engagements happen between 20-100 meters. only use the LRS for scouting ahead. )

 

Altho, sometimes weired things seem to happen and one Needs more shots.

Edited June 26, 2014 by {Core}BlackLabel

[pilgrim* 3514]

"You don't want to search through 100 gun spawns to find one can of beans "

 

That's not how the loot tables work.

 

I know how the loot tables work, dude.

 

I was trying to keep it simple, just to underline a SIMPLE point

 

If you sat down with a piece of paper and a pencil for 10 mins you yourself could work out some statistics on item spawns.

Wake up dude..

 

It's the people with the "rarity" arguments don't care, or haven't thought,  how loot tables work.

Katana67 explains his "granularity" proposal (for individual weapon + attachments), but he hasn't done the distribution math. Once you have enough different guns (or any object) they become impossibly rare - non existant - in practical terms OR the game is flooded with them. Especially when various objects have to be combined for them to work (e.g. gun and ammo).

 

In this thread "rare" is a word used to paste over a lack of understanding of "playability"

 

You really think you know how the loot tables work ?

Explain please..

Edited June 26, 2014 by pilgrim