Petition: No more randomness in weapons, SKILL based combat.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

Yes I understand. I agree with having realistic gun parameters. I think everyone does.

 

Starting from that agreement, the problem is how to get the state of the player, and maybe the state of the equipment too, to reflect in the game.

 

It seems to me, that any modifications to the players ability to aim - sway for instance - must be sent by the server. So the server must move your muzzle mm by mm, with no rubberbanding, no lag.. or you would go crazy trying to aim.

I think this might be technically difficult.

If sway is locally generated on your PC, any scripter could cancel it out to have perfect aim whatever his avatar's state.

 

I will be completely happy if I am wrong about this.

In the past in these forums I have asked for suggestions on how to implement changes in avatar ability. So far the reply seems to be "someone should get to work and come up with something better"

 

xx

 

[the difference between DayZ and ArmA  - is that this game is not about tactics and weapons, it is about survival, and zombies, fire, food, axes, animals, illness, injury, and many other elements, are exactly as important as weapons, firearms are only one part of the game among many]

The server can send you sway data all you want, you can just ignore it. What makes dispersion more "hardened" against hacks is that the client doesnt know where the bullet will go once the server received the firing packet. Since it cannot be predicted client side, a cheat cannot compensate against it.

 

Sway on the other hand require the client's cooperation, and since the bullet goes exactly where the player was aiming, its just a matter of stripping out the sway code, or compensate for it.

 

Same for other things, blurred screen, ear ringing, (but also shadows, or GRASS) all these effects rely on the client cooperation and are suceptible to be manipulated.

 

That's how ESP hacks work too, nothing is easier than injecting in the 3D view a marker that shows exactly where the client was told to play "mosing_reload.wav"

Edited May 21, 2014 by Lady Kyrah

[cuddly_rabbit 102]

Good point about the client-side/server-side methods of making shooting more difficult.
I can imagine how the "must pvp!" fraction on the game (which I am not a fan of) would find a way to reduce the sway/wind/moisture/ammo quality/... parameters and end up with even more of an advantage.

 

Therefore, server-side random dispersion seems actually a very good thing.

It's fair, because everybody has the same.
It is realistic if you accept that you are playing a random guy who survived by whatever luck he had, not an expert. Missing is just bad luck or a shooting mistake. For an unskilled shooter, these happen quite a lot.

 

So, keep it as it is.
Add a few more server-side means of making it harder to fight at the long-extreme distances of the gun range. It's too easy to hit targets at long range, still.

[FrostDMG 398]

If only Dayz had this type of sway

http://youtu.be/m92X1UOAeQ8

There would be zero need for the crappy dispersion and accessory system.

I call that SWAG

[pilgrim* 3514]

The server can send you sway data all you want, you can just ignore it.

 

Yes, I wanted to make it clear that to add 'sway' fairly, the server must have precedence over the client for gun movement, as in player movement, where the server is authoritative - hence occasionally causing (instigating) rubberbanding client side. In the same way the server would have to be authoritative on where your muzzle is pointing, and the client must conform to that, to avoid player-advantage scripting. But this would be a crazy way to try to control 'sway' I think. It would be technically a whole new pain in the neck, and even then, cause mega-more complaints than 'dispersion' does at the moment.

 

In ArmA the sway is competely client side because that is a team game, not a player-competitive game, so there is no gain in scripting player advantages. There will be folk who turn it off anyway (you heard it here first?)..

 

I think people who are less technical (more player side, than game structure and soft side) do not realise how many-many-MANY ways there are to mess with a game - AND it is a field of endless innovation, often you have to admire a hacker's original creativity, so there's no future in providing easy openings, especially considering SA's origin and development history. Would be great if more players understood.

I'm an outsider here, for me it's not work, just intellectual fun to watch.

Edited May 21, 2014 by pilgrim

[Sutinen 635]

Well, the server side random dispersion then can be toned down to levels where it would make sense, and first shot dispersion should be very, very low, if it's more hacking proof.

[scriptfactory 620]

Puh. You realism fans. :) I would make a "DayZ is not Arma" thread but I don't want to clutter the forum up any more that it already is...

[louist 163]

Until I see a video that shows a bullet not reaching its target from dead center I'll advance that the weapon system as it is is fine. Gun shoots where I aim it, of course it works better prone, while holding breath. I fail to see what the issue is - unless im wrong and bullet spiral or something? Also, I am wondering if lag is a factor on people claiming their shots dont register on target.

Gews has repeated showcased the ridiculous dispersion, pulling data from the game files directly. It's not merely anecdotal evidence.

[Katana67 2907]

I'll never see the logic in dismissing something on the off chance it could be hacked. Ballistics could still be calculated by the server regardless of whether there's dispersion or not, so no matter what your screen tells you, your rounds will still go where the server desires. The dispersion can be there, it just doesn't have to be on the order of tens of feet at reasonable ranges.

 

We aren't playing as anyone, we're not playing as a bumbling civilian or a trained individual. Our avatars have no background as enforced by the game. The only background our avatars have, is the one YOU as a player create in your mind. Other than that, there is no reference through which we can say our avatars are X... at all.

 

So, rather than simulate ineptness... just add systems which are intuitive and straightforward as to demonstrate the prowess of the PLAYER. If the PLAYER is inept in shooting, he or she will be inaccurate. You don't have to screw the folks over who're doing the right things by "simulating" anything.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Katana67

[zeroy 240]

Gews has repeated showcased the ridiculous dispersion, pulling data from the game files directly. It's not merely anecdotal evidence.

 

I still have seen nothing, link?

[Katana67 2907]

I still have seen nothing, link?

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/158038-mosin-and-m4-accuracy-test/

[zeroy 240]

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/158038-mosin-and-m4-accuracy-test/

 

This is tested with no sway at all? I doubt it. Get him to retest using the no sway trick and then we can get better data.

Edited May 21, 2014 by zeroy99

[Katana67 2907]

This is tested with no sway at all? I doubt it. Get him to retest using the no sway trick and then we can get better data.

 

Errr, what? Sway doesn't affect down-range dispersion after the round leaves the muzzle. If you fire when your crosshair is on the same point, sway isn't a factor.

[zeroy 240]

If you fire when your crosshair is on the same point, sway isn't a factor.

 

If you do yeah. If sway isnt removed from the test who says the bullet left the weapon dead center?

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

Yes, I wanted to make it clear that to add 'sway' fairly, the server must have precedence over the client for gun movement, as in player movement, where the server is authoritative - hence occasionally causing (instigating) rubberbanding client side. In the same way the server would have to be authoritative on where your muzzle is pointing, and the client must conform to that, to avoid player-advantage scripting. But this would be a crazy way to try to control 'sway' I think. It would be technically a whole new pain in the neck, and even then, cause mega-more complaints than 'dispersion' does at the moment.

 

In ArmA the sway is competely client side because that is a team game, not a player-competitive game, so there is no gain in scripting player advantages. There will be folk who turn it off anyway (you heard it here first?)..

 

I think people who are less technical (more player side, than game structure and soft side) do not realise how many-many-MANY ways there are to mess with a game - AND it is a field of endless innovation, often you have to admire a hacker's original creativity, so there's no future in providing easy openings, especially considering SA's origin and development history. Would be great if more players understood.

I'm an outsider here, for me it's not work, just intellectual fun to watch.

And that's the issue, you cannot have the server take precedence on something like your aiming vector because there is no relation of causality, unlike walking for example where the server take your input and then tells you where you are now, sure you can move your camera somewhere else, but it will not let you shoot from that point or use objects, because even if you disregard the server's instructions, as far as its concerned, you arent' "there"

 

When it come to aiming however, you do not have this relation, the server COULD consider that you cannot have turned your view this fast, but a small distance like rectifying gun sway is totally achieveable, even in a single update frame. You might not have autority on your position, but there isnt much the server can do to be certain that your firing angle is legit.

[gibonez 3633]

If you do yeah. If sway isnt removed from the test who says the bullet left the weapon dead center?

 

Say the weapon did not leave dead center event hen the amount of variance caused by that is minimal and the test would still show the insane amount of dispersion.

[-Gews- 7443]

If you do yeah. If sway isnt removed from the test who says the bullet left the weapon dead center?

If my aiming error is 5cm and the weapon's dispersion is almost 600 cm it doesn't really matter. That test was just to provide a visual example, the exact numbers are right there in the game files.

[attackm0de 38]

the problem is you round a corner. theres another person in the street with an M4. you both start shooting.

 

right now the overly stupid cone of fire "random dispersion" has a significant effect on whose landing more bullets. this fight will be significantly effected by getting lucky with the "dispersion gods". it should not be that way.

Oh ok I see what you mean thanks for clearing that up.

[zeroy 240]

If my aiming error is 5cm and the weapon's dispersion is almost 600 cm it doesn't really matter. That test was just to provide a visual example, the exact numbers are right there in the game files.

 

Thanks for clarifying.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

I will also add that random spread is actually a deterrent to combat because to be efficient you have to move closer to your target, which makes him more likely to have the jump on you. It also reduce certainty in the outcome of a firefight, making it more likely that you will just decide to "live another day" rather than risk it.

 

If anything, how you approach a situation and your placement should be more important than how well you aim. In the real world, most of the battle is over before the first shot is fired.

[xalienax 621]

I will also add that random spread is actually a deterrent to combat because to be efficient you have to move closer to your target, which makes him more likely to have the jump on you. It also reduce certainty in the outcome of a firefight, making it more likely that you will just decide to "live another day" rather than risk it.

 

If anything, how you approach a situation and your placement should be more important than how well you aim. In the real world, most of the battle is over before the first shot is fired.

One of the biggest strengths that the mod's combat had was being built on arma mechanics. as game that said "screw balance for the sake of realism". Situational awareness is your only safeguard.

 

This is exactly what i think they are doing tho; trying to pander to all the anti combat cry babies and weaken the combat mechanics to steer playstyle. the mod was on the other hand, more like "heres all the toys and the toyshop to boot. have fun and do anything you please to eachother". the game was great because of that.

 

miss being able to insta drop people from 250m + with ARs especially the AKM firing single rounds off. it makes you fearful. 'Omg i think i just saw something.. hmm should i try to chek? maybe i shoudl just camp in this corner for 10 minutes to see if someone comes inatead?' realistic shooting mechanics means a skillful shooter can move into a position and take one fatal shot and you just hear CRACK then you are dead. it's about combat rewarding those with skill and expereince and punishing those who just spray like arcade kiddies. we should NOT be seeking fair/balanced engagements in an apocalypse.

[gibonez 3633]

 

 

This is exactly what i think they are doing tho; trying to pander to all the anti combat cry babies and weaken the combat mechanics to steer playstyle. the mod was on the other hand, more like "heres all the toys and the toyshop to boot. have fun and do anything you please to eachother". the game was great because of that.

 

Sadly I think we will have to wait for mods for any of the game to even get remotely realistic.

 

Painted mosins

LRS on mosins

Dispersion

Unreal Tournament Movement

Miracle rag healing

7.62x51 mosin nagants

etc

 

The game is a unrealistic mess that is clearly trying to cater to the common peasant.

 

This will only lead to the vanilla game being completely and utterly abandoned insanely fast once a competent mod comes out.

or

People playing the competition.

[Whyherro123 2283]

Sadly I think we will have to wait for mods for any of the game to even get remotely realistic.

 

Painted mosins

LRS on mosins

Dispersion

Unreal Tournament Movement

Miracle rag healing

7.62x51 mosin nagants

etc

 

The game is a unrealistic mess that is clearly trying to cater to the common peasant.

 

This will only lead to the vanilla game being completely and utterly abandoned insanely fast once a competent mod comes out.

or

People playing the competition.

"peasant"? Really? 

 

You just lost whatever respect I had for you.

[gibonez 3633]

"peasant"? Really? 

 

You just lost whatever respect I had for you.

 

It's a reference to consoles.

 

Edited May 22, 2014 by gibonez

[Whyherro123 2283]

It's a reference to consoles.

 

I understood the reference. I just don't particularly agree with it's usage. 

[xalienax 621]

I understood the reference. I just don't particularly agree with it's usage. 

its pretty accurate tho. i feel like everything thats ever been multi-platform has seen its PC side hindered as a rsult. game design concessions made with consoles in mind, etc.