Suggestion: Decrease hit percentage => Lengthen the Rush + Reduce Artificiality

[cuddly_rabbit 102]

The following thoughts are based on the following basic assumptions:

 

• DayZ's tensest moments are that split-second when you hear the bullet whizz past, and you realize someone is shooting at you. The near-miss is a very good element to create immersion.
• When you are hit, it often means "You are dead". A shot, a black screen. DayZ is unrelenting and your life is often gone before you could enjoy the thrill of fighting for it. We lose massive potential here. 
• The current healing mechanism is silly. You are shot, then you bandage, then eat and drink and you heal up in 10 minutes. That's so unrealistic that it hurts, even though I am fully supporting a "gamplay over realism" approach. 

Taking into account these 3 basic assumptions, I would like to make the following suggestions:

 

 

Proposal: Make us shoot more and hit less;
The chance to hit another player should be decreased in general.
It needs to be rather low.

 

Reasons, why this makes sense:

 

 

1. Realism: Untrained, unskilled Survivor =/= Soldiers:

 

We play untrained, random people. Not soldiers. It is damn hard to handle guns, even when you have the training. I am a Staff Sergeant (reservist) and went though infantry training and infantry leadership training and it is still far from easy. Even with perfectly aligned guns, training and experience, it is very hard to hit under realistic conditions. After running, diving down, picking up target, shaking from adrenaline... you will hardly hit anything. Breath control, steadying the gun, etc... that's all advanced techniques that normal survivors do not have. After shooting every week for more than a year, I still suck pretty much at handguns, and can't hit a human shape at 15 meters after running and some stress exercises reliably. And that's only training. No one is shooting at me. An unskilled person would have even less of a chance. 

 

And sniping... ye. Just forget it! It is an art. Not a "take gun, aim, shoot, done" thing. I carried the medium range scope for the G3 in training and it is an art to align it after putting it on the rifle. You need test shots, an observer, it is loud, it takes time, the thing needs to be taken care of painstakingly, you need to calibrate it and measuring distances with it is a pain. By no means you hit perfectly where you aim, even after you did everything right. At least not in suboptimal (=realistic) conditions, and an untrained person would not hit anything at high distances.  

 

 

2. Realism: Bad equipment

 

MilSims always have good equipment. But have you ever fired a rifle that had taken a hit to the barrel? I did. With my personal G3 in basic training, I had to shoot 8-low-left to hit 10-center on a ring targetboard. At 50 meters, prone, supported, shooting range conditions...no problem. At 150 meters? Haha, good joke! And I bet that compared to DayZ gun conditions, my stupid rifle would have counted as pristine and in great shape.

 

In the military genre, people assume that sights are aligned. They are not. They are only (at least in the German military) when the gun went to the armourer. After that, it hits 10-center when you aim at 10-center. Drag it around for a while, throw it to the ground, hit your helmet onto the sights when diving too quickly, basically just use it... and it will lose the accuracy. If you do not believe it, look at the deterioration of accuracy of modern day assault rifles. E.g. the G36 - after firing a lot of shots in burst - loses accuracy to a crazy degree.  Even the press picked up on that.

 

I could go on on the quality (or the lack of it) in ammunition. But I guess I made the point: The equipment is bad. So should be our hit chances.

 

 

3. Gameplay: Lengthen the rush

 

Hearing that sniper bullet whizz past you and strike the wall with an impact animation is tense. => At least 2 players react emotionally at this moment and at least two hearts start pumping faster. Likely more, when you play as a team. That's the coolest part of the game, when you look for cover, try to figure out where the shots come from, etc. 

 

It is 100 time cooler than the sudden end of: "You are dead". => It leaves one player satisfied for a few seconds, and another one frustrated. 

 

A good game needs to focus on its strengths and that is that rush that you feel when you realize that you are in danger of losing that character of yours that you have become linked to in some way (I assume that building this link and the intensity of this link will become much stronger the more the game developments proceeds, as it is one of the game's main strengths).

 

Making that intense part longer is good for the game. Reducing the percentage of instant death makes the gameplay better. Allowing a surprised party to get away with the shock improves the game. Giving a surprised party the chance to fight back, makes for a tenser experience for all involved, as it lets both parties of a confrontation participate in the action.  
 

 

4. Gameplay: Less Artificiality => An easier injury system

 

Look at action movies: the main character is somehow protected. They are seldom shot into the left lung, or the lower stomach when they have to continue. They are grazed in the arm, leg, shoulder, side... why? Because every major bullet wound (or wound in general) is deadly if not treated fast and properly.

 

Fast and proper treatement with high tech medicine. Hm, DayZ? High tech medicine. DayZ? Fast transportation. DayZ?

You get the point. Every serious injury means death in DayZ. It is part of the unforgiving setting and it is good like that.

 

Therefore the hit system I suggest is incredibly easy: It differentiates between:

 

• a graze: a hit that did not damage much, can be bandaged and heals. Action hereos are thrown against a wall, groan, grunt, then get up and continue. The limp, but they live after banadaging themselves with a necktie or... rags.
• a serious hit: there is no way a serious hit can be survived in DayZ. Therefore every such hit should result in death. As slow death by internal bleeding, organ failure etc cannot be avoided, we can skip fast forward to the black screen. There is nothing to be gained by a slow dying process in front of a black screen.
• alternative: a medium hit. That could be a hit that can be "cured" by primitive (= DayZ) medical means (once an enhanced medical system is in the game). Extract a bullet from a non-lethal wound, clamp an artery, things that a skilled medic with equipment can do. But healing should take a lot of time. And somehow, even if it affects you for days of playing, it's still kind of silly. If you had a minor surgery once, you know that even with painkillers and under perfect conditions, it can take weeks to be fully up again.  And a bullet wound is never "harmless".

That's why I would skip all the "we need organ hitboxes", etc systems as supposed in other threads. And go for a simple "harmless hit" vs. "deadly hit" (perhaps: "medium hit") categories.

 

 

The combination of: Less hitting, longer rush, longer fights, less artificiality in wounds system would make for a better experience in my opinion.

 

I'm curious what you think. ;)

Andy

 

 

[-Gews- 7443]

Keep in mind that for every bullet that whizzes past and improves your gameplay there is a player cursing on the other end. I hate the current dispersion mechanics. I don't like random dispersion once it gets past a reasonable level either. You didn't mention dispersion but I have to mention it.

But making it harder to hit people is good. Placing the cursor and clicking is extremely easy. More advanced wounds are good. Sighting in rifles and barrels overheating are worthy if unlikely features. There is really nothing objectionable here.

[gibonez 3633]

The random dispersion and the inconsistent gun mechanics are detrimental to gameplay.

 

The only thing your suggestion would do is take away a players skill and put luck as a substitute.

 

 

 

Making shooting harder by putting in real life factors such as wind, realistic elevation adjustments, realistic sway, simulating trigger pull and weapon resting and bipod deployment would achieve the same thing that you suggest without punishing player skill.

 

The current damage mechanics and damage system is also ass or as my British friends would say it is pants.

 

A more detailed damage system that models organs is absolutely needed. A bandage should not heal a gunshot wound if you are shot in the chest or stomach you should be physically hurt your characters speed and run animation should suggest it.

 

A bandage or rag should only soak up some of the blood, and it should take multiple rags to finally stop up the bleeding.

Edited May 15, 2014 by gibonez

[xalienax 621]

Make shooting harder with real effect the player can over-come with SKILL.

 

if "random" mechanics make it to final release thats ground for perma delete from HD and cut my losses for buying. same with phazing zeds. infact they better not be able to stroke thru walls while standing outside either. this isnt a mod anymore theyre charging for it and i expect to to get to professional quality. failure in that = trash it.

[gibonez 3633]

Make shooting harder with real effect the player can over-come with SKILL.

 

if "random" mechanics make it to final release thats ground for perma delete from HD and cut my losses for buying. same with phazing zeds. infact they better not be able to stroke thru walls while standing outside either. this isnt a mod anymore theyre charging for it and i expect to to get to professional quality. failure in that = trash it.

 

Pretty much.

 

When it comes to shooting and gun mechanics Dayz would benefit by mimicking real life as best as it can.  The closer to reality it goes the better it will be. There is no reason why a player should be able to shoot a player at 1400m by simply going prone, then pressing page up 14 times. This essentially makes a 1400m shot just as easy as shooting someone at 10 feet.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

@OP: I'd agree if this weren't DayZ, but a survival game should put stealth over "epic gun battles" every time.

 

If you're in a position to be picked off, then you shouldn't see it coming. You'd pay with your life the same way you would if this weren't a game. (;

[xalienax 621]

Pretty much.

 

When it comes to shooting and gun mechanics Dayz would benefit by mimicking real life as best as it can.  The closer to reality it goes the better it will be. There is no reason why a player should be able to shoot a player at 1400m by simply going prone, then pressing page up 14 times. This essentially makes a 1400m shot just as easy as shooting someone at 10 feet.

Indeed, infact i would say to go so far as to add in things like the kestrel and range tables to military loot  up north to force you to adjust your rifle like in ACE mod. this would give the mill sim vets thier much desired high skill pvp with High value loot, without adding any cheap "lulz ur dead cuz this eazy" things to the game.

[gibonez 3633]

Indeed, infact i would say to go so far as to add in things like the kestrel and range tables to military loot  up north to force you to adjust your rifle like in ACE mod. this would give the mill sim vets thier much desired high skill pvp with High value loot, without adding any cheap "lulz ur dead cuz this eazy" things to the game.

 

I say no range tables at all.

 

Force the community and players to make their own for each rifle and each scope combination.

 

I want to see people print out range charts for their rifle like so.

 

Then keep the sheet at the ready next to them while they play.

[Karmaterror 982]

Pretty much.

 

When it comes to shooting and gun mechanics Dayz would benefit by mimicking real life as best as it can.  The closer to reality it goes the better it will be. There is no reason why a player should be able to shoot a player at 1400m by simply going prone, then pressing page up 14 times. This essentially makes a 1400m shot just as easy as shooting someone at 10 feet.

 

Isnt zeroing a real life thing on some scopes though?

 

I would argue to keep zeroing in because it is realistic and can be a skill in itself. Guessing the range for that first shot is crucial. Get it wrong at big distance and it could end up loosing your prey. Even getting flanked in a worst case scenario. Anything that adds more variables to a shot is a good thing to me.

 

Weapons themselves just need to behave properly, im no gun nut, so not very clued up on them. But iv read all the dispersion threads and agree they need to be fixed.....but keep zeroing that's just another level of immersion....maybe just have it on particular scopes :)

[xalienax 621]

I say no range tables at all.

 

Force the community and players to make their own for each rifle and each scope combination.

 

I want to see people print out range charts for their rifle like so.

 

Then keep the sheet at the ready next to them while they play.

That actually would be quite an interesting endeavor, tho i do see a potential issue with it being hard to discern impact points at very long ranges due to rendering distances. (you often wont see impacts in A2 at or beyond 1k). alternatively the decal for the bullet hole would thave to survive long enough for you to walk all the way to target, and atop all of this you'd need some way to get precise ranges.

[xalienax 621]

Isnt zeroing a real life thing on some scopes though?

 

I would argue to keep zeroing in because it is realistic and can be a skill in itself. Guessing the range for that first shot is crucial. Get it wrong at big distance and it could end up loosing your prey. Even getting flanked in a worst case scenario. Anything that adds more variables to a shot is a good thing to me.

 

Weapons themselves just need to behave properly, im no gun nut, so not very clued up on them. But iv read all the dispersion threads and agree they need to be fixed.....but keep zeroing that's just another level of immersion....maybe just have it on particular scopes :)

 some guns irons and mid range scopes do have a simple range scale on them, however long range shooting requires a more complex understanding of the variables at hand and a reasonably accurate way to measure or atleast aproximate them.

[-Gews- 7443]

That actually would be quite an interesting endeavor, tho i do see a potential issue with it being hard to discern impact points at very long ranges due to rendering distances. (you often wont see impacts in A2 at or beyond 1k). alternatively the decal for the bullet hole would thave to survive long enough for you to walk all the way to target, and atop all of this you'd need some way to get precise ranges.

Have no fear, I'm sure all the necessary corrections would be on posted on Reddit and the forums the first day that was introduced...

[gibonez 3633]

Isnt zeroing a real life thing on some scopes though?

 

I would argue to keep zeroing in because it is realistic and can be a skill in itself. Guessing the range for that first shot is crucial. Get it wrong at big distance and it could end up loosing your prey. Even getting flanked in a worst case scenario. Anything that adds more variables to a shot is a good thing to me.

 

Weapons themselves just need to behave properly, im no gun nut, so not very clued up on them. But iv read all the dispersion threads and agree they need to be fixed.....but keep zeroing that's just another level of immersion....maybe just have it on particular scopes :)

 

Yes mostly russian scopes.

 

Most modern scopes have universal elevation adjustments so the scope can work on any weapon and caliber combination.

 

Having a scope with dials that let you range it by increments of 100m would only work with one specific weapon and one specific caliber that fires out at a very specific muzzle velocity.

 

I am not arguing to get rid of zeroing what I am saying is replace it with how it is done in real life.

 

This not only makes sniping require more skill and practice but if mastered gives the player a higher skill potential.

 

For example a remington 700 with a 20 moa base + a normal modern day target scope with 120 moa of elevation would allow a player to stretch out that rifle to maybe 1200m.

[xalienax 621]

Have no fear, I'm sure all the necessary corrections would be on posted on Reddit and the forums the first day that was introduced...

i honestly dont care if its posted on a website, the forums or what. welcome to online gaming. the fact that the player must still estimate range and wind with some degree of accuracy and adjust the scope in real time is of sufficient realism and would be no different then a range table found in a barracks. either way achieves the same ends of making powerful snipers still require some work to use, and some expereicne to do this esitmation quickly enough to be effective.

[Karmaterror 982]

Yes mostly russian scopes.

 

Most modern scopes have universal elevation adjustments so the scope can work on any weapon and caliber combination.

 

Having a scope with dials that let you range it by increments of 100m would only work with one specific weapon and one specific caliber that fires out at a very specific muzzle velocity.

 

I am not arguing to get rid of zeroing what I am saying is replace it with how it is done in real life.

 

This not only makes sniping require more skill and practice but if mastered gives the player a higher skill potential.

 

For example a remington 700 with a 20 moa base + a normal modern day target scope with 120 moa of elevation would allow a player to stretch out that rifle to maybe 1200m.

 

Ahha....I understand now.....yep all for that, anything that makes sniping more involved. Id love the tools of the trade eg rangefinder and wind metre to be like the compass, making "spotter" a real role not something a sniper can do all by himself in seconds. These range calculations could fit that role while the sniper keeps eyes on :D

[Evil Minion 943]

When I first read the topic I thought it was about increasing the health of survivors to create longer combat - which would have been a "NO!" from my side. But those ideas might be a good thing if not overdone.
 

1. Realism: Untrained, unskilled Survivor =/= Soldiers:

While I do agree with the realism argument I don't think it would be good for gameplay. Taking away a lot of combat skill by default would probably just cause randomness in combat or frustration on the side of the players. Instead the maximum performace should stay BUT there should be certain factors you need to look at. Players should be given the toold but they should be harder to use:
(A) Stamina (your body)
I posted some suggestions elsewhere so I will make it short here: If you are exhausted from physical activity you will have a much harder time hitting your target. Can be mitigated by keeping your stamina high.
(B) Accuracy (your weapon)
In reality most weapons do not shoot perfectly straight. There is always a bias. I do not mean the spread but simply the fact that the expected center of your shots is not the point you aimed at (or straight below it). If every weapon had such a bias players would need to know their weapon to get the expected outcome.
©

2. Realism: Bad equipment

This is not accuracy but precision. Even the best condition weapon should have some bias but with lower condition there should be much more spread (around the biased center) that you cannot mitigate by just aiming. Instead you need to find good equipment (most weapons you will find should be in rather bad condition) and keep it in good shape: With every shot your weapons condition gets worse until it finally stops working if you don't take action.
(D) Weather
Weather conditions should influence your shots especially if shooting over longer distances by making your shots go short or to the side. So a skilled marksman has to study his environment and work it into his shot to hit his target.

However, taking all those things into account you should be able to snipe just well. An alternative would be a skill system that makes your current character better at something by doing it and worse at something by not doing it over a prolonged period of time.
 

3. Gameplay: Lengthen the rush

Definitely. But careful planning (see above) should be rewarded - otherwise the whole thing would cause frustration on the other side: You are in best condition, know your weapon like a brother and carefully line up your shot - BAM you still miss. Thats even more frustrating than getting instakilled (here you basically "failed" to sneak successfully) and takes away the reward for doing it right. Same here: Instead of making it impossible for players to be snipers make it much harder and rewarding.
 

4. Gameplay: Less Artificiality => An easier injury system

I don't have much problems with the current health and injury system. Keep in mind that its still a game and people don't want to spend weeks recovering from wounds. The injury system does not sound that bad but here I also would give players a chance. So you either got a graze (equivalent to the non-lethal shots we got right now), an instantly fatal shot (like head or neck shots) and something like your medium hits that can be treated but it needs to be done (a) quickly (e.g. by making them drain health until treatened) and (B) by somebody else.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Evil Minion

[NagsterTheGangster 388]

i like the idea of longer firefights....but i would be so frustrated shooting bullets everywhere and none of them landing....\\

let alone make another reason for the zombies to become more.....difficult then they always are.

[massacrorBKK 64]

Sniper players will hate me...

 

But, about realism I'm quite sure in such apocalypse you won't have any snipers at all unless army professionals. Most of every gunfights between unexperienced civilian wouldn't exceed 15-20 meters range between the fighters (basically like it is nowadays when people without proper training start a gunfight... watch for police statistic...).

[BeefBacon 1185]

Stamina should have a profound effect on accuracy, but I think that weapons in general should be more skin to their real-life counterparts. I wouldn't mind seeing a suppression system (Think Red Orchestra 2) where if a bullet whizzes past you your character panics and suffers a penalty to accuracy. Seems a bit silly to have a sniper sitting calmly while M4 rounds land all around them. I'd be shitting myself.

 

Could be interesting to add proper zeroing, as in the necessity to align your sights. You pick a target and fire at it. You then adjust your sights accordingly and fire again. Repeat until your sights are aligned. You waste ammo, but it means that in the long run you'll be more likely to land your first shot.

[gibonez 3633]

i like the idea of longer firefights....but i would be so frustrated shooting bullets everywhere and none of them landing....\\

let alone make another reason for the zombies to become more.....difficult then they always are.

 

Thats why they need to remove the random dispersion system and adopt a realistic approach to sooting where if you miss its player error or the player exceeding the weapons maximum effective range not pure bad luck like it is now.

 

 

Realistic shooting mechanics, sway,  trigger pull , sight alignment + realistic dispersion = best solution.

[lipemr 160]

Sniper players will hate me...

 

But, about realism I'm quite sure in such apocalypse you won't have any snipers at all unless army professionals. Most of every gunfights between unexperienced civilian wouldn't exceed 15-20 meters range between the fighters (basically like it is nowadays when people without proper training start a gunfight... watch for police statistic...).

 

Yeah, cause no one uses scoped weapons for hunting, only lead ball muskets and bows, right?

 

You better be joking.

 

And @ topic

 

That a big motherfucking NO.

 

The fact that you'll die for a simple mistake you make is what makes the game so brutal. This is not cod where you can take 5 shots to the chest and regenerate faster than wolverine, IRL weapons are much more accurate than they are in game and you'll die without knowing from if you're not careful.

 

Even a badly shaped mosin will hit a man target at ~400 meters if your sights are on.

 

Damn man, so much fucking casuals and carebears on these forums nowadays, i feel that most of the community want the game to be an open world cod/wow with zombies.

 

They want less weapons, less weapon accuracy, easier zombies, more random mechanics, what's next? aim assist?

Edited May 16, 2014 by lipemr

[gibonez 3633]

Sniper players will hate me...

 

But, about realism I'm quite sure in such apocalypse you won't have any snipers at all unless army professionals. Most of every gunfights between unexperienced civilian wouldn't exceed 15-20 meters range between the fighters (basically like it is nowadays when people without proper training start a gunfight... watch for police statistic...).

 

That is incorrect.

 

There number of hunters that are likely to survive a SHTF scenario is insane.

 

These hunters would bring with them their precision shooting and hunting rifles many of which are on par if not exceed what a military sniper rifle is capable of.

 

Take a deer rifle in .243 for example a good accurate deer rifle in .243 shoots a 90 grain bullet out of the barrel at around 3600 fps with a hot load at that speed the time to target is insanely fast and with say 10 mph cross wind the .243 will be affected by wind by 20 feet less compared to a .308 from say a m24 or m40 rifle.

 

When it comes to precision shooting, the civilian market and hunters have far better equipment.

[gibonez 3633]

Even something like this would make firefights last longer without having to resort to random dispersion.

 

[nexventor 429]

Elemental effects like wind and such fine any mechanic to randomise things like dispersion HELL NO!

 

As for increasing the longevity of the "RUSH"

 

Try this.... 

 

Don't die

 

I watch so many people people do the same dumb things over and over again and instead of blaming themselves, analysing what they did wrong and adjusting next time. They blame the game mechanics or hacks lol

[massacrorBKK 64]

That is incorrect.

 

There number of hunters that are likely to survive a SHTF scenario is insane.

 

These hunters would bring with them their precision shooting and hunting rifles many of which are on par if not exceed what a military sniper rifle is capable of.

 

Take a deer rifle in .243 for example a good accurate deer rifle in .243 shoots a 90 grain bullet out of the barrel at around 3600 fps with a hot load at that speed the time to target is insanely fast and with say 10 mph cross wind the .243 will be affected by wind by 20 feet less compared to a .308 from say a m24 or m40 rifle.

 

When it comes to precision shooting, the civilian market and hunters have far better equipment.

 

Hunting a deer and be caught in a gunfight with one or many people shooting back at you is not the same thing in my opinion.

 

I gonna quote Cyberpunk 2020 rulebook talking about the game fighting rules.

 

There's a lot of vague ideas and theories about modem weapons encounters - most of them from the Hollywood Never-Empty-Six-Gun-School of Armed Combat. These misconceptions have crept on little flat feet into the design of many role-playing games, leading to characters who can be repeatedly shot with large caliber handguns until they run out of "hit points" and who can fire Ingram MAC-10's one-handed and hit with every bullet.

In other words, good, clean fun.

FNFF is not good, clean fun. Most of the data herein has been complied from ballistics reports, police data, FBI statistics and other not-clean fun sources. These sources tend to point to a couple of basic truths about firefight combat.

80% of most gunfights occur between untrained amateurs at a range of 21 feet. 50% of these raging gun battles happen within 8 feet or less! Most (60%) occur in dimly lit and difficult conditions - dark, tiny alleys, with both participants panting and out of breath, pausing momentarily to snap off a badly aimed shot at a fleeing shadow, then ducking back for cover. Hits are surprisingly rare. When they do occur (assuming a large caliber weapon's involved), the victim is usually hors de combat on the first shot from a combination of round-shock and terror. A solid hit with a .44 magnum will usually splatter a real person all over New Jersey.

 

This was just what I meant by doing my other post about snipers players. To be a sniper is not as easy in real life as in game. Anyway, I'm not complaining about snipers, I just telling some fact. In game I'm careful and aren't been snipe yet.