Thoughts on the Map

[doctorbadsign 645]

Ok so I want to make it emphatically clear that this topic is mostly my opinion and I am willing to accept that it may differ from yours, despite this I wish to keep things civil. Also I want to make it clear that despite some heavy criticism of the map, I do not hate DayZ, I am just thinking about how it could be improved in my opinion. Finally if you want to scream "alpha" you'll just get ignored, this is not about any features that are subject to changes that radically alter my criticisms, its about the map---which despite some minor changes will be pretty much as it is on release. Any changes that are made, unless they are ridiculously large and beyond the scope of the project do not invalidate any of my criticisms.

 

Now that's out of the way, lets get to some of my thoughts.

 

I think that defenders of Chernarus are often touting the fallacy that large = better. Whilst size is a factor in a good map, I think it needs to be balanced with a map that draws you in and makes you want to explore it. I hear some of you about to say "well I like exploring Chernarus" and that is fair enough, but it is evident that the majority of the player base are happy sticking to a few select areas, thus it would seem that for most the map does not call for exploration. 

 

Why doesn't Chernarus call for exploration? Firstly because the terrain lacks a great deal of variation, we do not see any mountains that call out for us to climb them for example. Secondly we know what to expect everywhere. What I mean by that is, we know what the buildings look like in every town on the map as they are just pasted everywhere and most of us do not feel an overt desire to see them in different configurations. We also know exactly what all the forests and fields look like from a glimpse of any of these areas. Even the potentially cool exploration points such as castles are just copy/pasted. 

 

Many people will protest that they only hang around the coast because there are no vehicles. But the thing is people will not use vehicles to explore they will use vehicles to drive around to specific copy/pasted buildings in search of specific items and this will be done in a very formulaic "there's a piano house in this town" manner. The distance is a chore that requires a car, not a pleasure that would be fun on foot. In my opinion Chernarus doesn't feel like the kind of map where I think "I just want to drive around and get lost" like say San Andreas did. Even if it were, if cars are made exceptionally hard to maintain this would not be plausible anyway. 

 

Another problem with having a larger map is that the larger the map the less chance you have of encountering other players. This is probably the main reason people hang around spawn points. No matter how the spawn system works, people will hang out where people are, that's what DayZ is about anyway. If the map size was reduced people would feel more like exploring because the chances that there will be someone else around that area will be increased. 

 

I know nothing will be done to change the map in DayZ, but that does not stop me from criticizing it or us from discussing it. In short I think DayZ could do with a smaller map with a much higher attention to detail. Whilst it is cool that BI used satellites and shit when making Chernarus, this data does not necessarily create a great game map. Really a new map could be designed with every aspect of gameplay considered, with enough wilderness, containing enough variation to satisfy explorers, with no copy/pasted buildings to remove the extremely formulaic looting process and encourage everyone to explore, that is not so big that people view it as a chore to traverse.

 

An example of a good map would be Skyrim. When I am in that world I think "fuck the fast travel I'm walking everywhere" because it is so beautiful and fun to explore. When I am in Chernarus I feel no such inclination. My exploration is limited to, "there's a town, there's a chance of such and such an item in that house, lets take a look, ignore everything else. Fuck it I'm going to log out, I'm bored of hiking."

 

Basically, despite being a really good concept pretty much all other areas, DayZ is let down by its map, which fallaciously assumes that larger is better, and in doing so sacrifices any inclination to explore because of its copy/pasted towns which make looting formulaic and boring and it lacks of places that call out for exploration. If you've been to Electro, you've basically seen every worthwhile building on the map, and if you've been in the trees around it you basically know what the rest of it is like. 

 

Players hanging around a small portion of the map is not a symptom of poor spawn mechanics, or loot balancing or anything, its because the map is poor and the map is poor because it sacrificed so much in order to be bigger than everyone else's map. 

 

TLDR? Find another topic. 

[SGT. Kalme 106]

In my opinion the big map allows you feel the freedom when playing DayZ. I like the Chernarus for all the emptiness there is because it makes everything more realistic for me. Going somewhere takes time, in that time I can see the nature, explore what I may not have seen yet and meanwhile I can get in situations where having the large areas gives me more freedom of choice how I deal with situations.

 

I agree that things look similar everywhere but that doesn't stop be having an adventure on that map. I don't go around just to see buildings. The environment itself creates the right atmosphere for that. I wouldn't mind seeing large variation of different buildings and towns,

 

How I see it, modeling those buildings isn't all that difficult, takes time but a team could do a lot in time when DayZ is in alpha. I don't expect all buildings to be different but there could be some villages or towns that only consists of buildings you can find there and nowhere else. making few villages of 15-20 houses wouldn't and shouldn't be difficult for bunch of 3D artists. Even more, I think they could take a submissions from outside of their dev team - I bet there are many people playing the game who would like to participate in creating it. They could help to create the models for this game. Both parties would win - players get more variation without having to put more work on dev team.

 

Even more, they could model trees and whatever would be needed.

 

Overall, it depends so much on a player - there are people that expect different things from the game. I, for example, didn't enjoy Skyrim all that much.

Edited April 1, 2014 by SGT. Kalme

[CyberGuru 35]

I think the size of the map is fine.  I agree that it does need more diversity, less copy/pasting of buildings and more points of interest which beckon for deeper exploration.  

[Etherious 907]

Well, some people's (not you) problem is that they automatically hate on it, without even going into the map to explore. It's just like when I went to go see the movie Frozen with my best friend, I had a "Oh the movie is gonna be shit" mindset...so what happened? It was shit to me because of my ignorant mindset. Granted yes, they could use a couple more different buildings although that shouldn't be a problem since alot of ArmA's base buildings were actually already open.

[eirikr 34]

I'll have to assume you didn't play the mod.

 

When vehicles and persistent items are added, exploring the map will be more attractive. You will have more reasons to explore, and a faster way to do it. That, and they haven't finished their additions to it. We don't know what sort of attractive locations they may be adding, or where.

 

 

I've spent like 2000 hours exploring that map, and I still love it. When the nubs have a reason to keep their pants on and get off the coast, they will too.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Erik204

[doctorbadsign 645]

In my opinion the big map allows you feel the freedom when playing DayZ. I like the Chernarus for all the emptiness there is because it makes everything more realistic for me. Going somewhere takes time, in that time I can see the nature, explore what I may not have seen yet and meanwhile I can get in situations where having the large areas gives me more freedom of choice how I deal with situations.

 

I agree that things look similar everywhere but that doesn't stop be having an adventure on that map. I don't go around just to see buildings. The environment itself creates the right atmosphere for that. I wouldn't mind seeing large variation of different buildings and towns,

 

How I see it, modeling those buildings isn't all that difficult, takes time but a team could do a lot in time when DayZ is in alpha. I don't expect all buildings to be different but there could be some villages or towns that only consists of buildings you can find there and nowhere else. making few villages of 15-20 houses wouldn't and shouldn't be difficult for bunch of 3D artists. Even more, I think they could take a submissions from outside of their dev team - I bet there are many people playing the game who would like to participate in creating it. They could help to create the models for this game. Both parties would win - players get more variation without having to put more work on dev team.

 

Even more, they could model trees and whatever would be needed.

 

Overall, it depends so much on a player - there are people that expect different things from the game. I, for example, didn't enjoy Skyrim all that much.

 

Thanks for the response.

 

I pretty much agree with you. 

 

My only question would be that how would you solve the issue of players staying in one part of the map? I'm not sure different building models would do it. In my opinion its a symptom of the fact that the distance is not worth it for loot that can be found in a very small area, which implies that the map does not really call players to explore it (if that makes sense).

 

I like your idea of community based contributions, I'd love to see the development team get the community involved with competitions for designing new buildings and stuff.

[doctorbadsign 645]

I'll have to assume you didn't play the mod.

 

When vehicles are added, exploring the map will be more attractive. You will have more reasons to explore, and a faster way to do it. That, and they haven't finished their additions to it. We don't know what sort of attractive locations they may be adding, or where.

 

 

I've spent like 2000 hours exploring that map, and I still love it. When the nubs have a reason to keep their pants on and get off the coast, they will too.

 

I did play the mod. However I never found driving much of a pleasure and the extent of my exploration was to get to a specific way point on the map, rather than I'll just drive around. Although I admit that this may have been a symptom of how it felt to drive a car in the mod.

 

In fact perhaps my criticisms are biased by how much I played the mod. I explored Chernarus already. There is no getting lost in it anymore, ergo its kinda boring when I know where to go to get what I want. I have forgotten what it felt like when Chernarus was new to me I am fully aware that this might factor into things.

[SGT. Kalme 106]

Thanks for the response.

 

I pretty much agree with you. 

 

My only question would be that how would you solve the issue of players staying in one part of the map? I'm not sure different building models would do it. In my opinion its a symptom of the fact that the distance is not worth it for loot that can be found in a very small area, which implies that the map does not really call players to explore it (if that makes sense).

 

I like your idea of community based contributions, I'd love to see the development team get the community involved with competitions for designing new buildings and stuff.

 

Hmm, yes. The loot. It is a problems through the mod and SA. I think it is not about the loot or if it is worth to adventure the map for it. It is more about the players - people are not used to so much freedom in a game that they don't think about going around and discover the map. Other part of players don't even care about the map and just want to sit on a hill and kill players. And the best is to do so on coast where you spawn because there are most players and biggest chance to meet one.

 

I think if there would be towns that you can't fn anywhere else than where they are, people would go and seek for them. Even more if, lets say there would be different loot in them. Like some villages/town has a lumber near it, there could be some gear that can be found in lumbers and not any random location. Same with fields and factories. I can't imagine why would say hoe spawn in or near a building where are obviously no fields nearby. Specific loot and spawns would call people further in map.

 

Other than that, this problem is quite hard to solve because it is not really about map size or buildings on it. For most part I even assume it is not about the game at all but how people are used to play pc games.

[igor-vk 909]

I guess you have to be DayZ junkie to leve the ma. I find it awesome. I ve been to 99% of towns/villages, I explored all empty locations prepared for new towns. I played mod a lot and comparing map from mod to Chernarus+ is even better (Stary, Polana, Vybor are completly redone). What Im doing is already searching for locations for my camp. There is still hudge area that will be filled with buildings, I hope for some new types. There are 3 or 4 new ones, but they copy/pasted too. So its hard to find, but close to towns to go for suplies...I want vehicles just to have some to do (repair, upgrade, search for tools, parts, fuel, oil, bateries...)

[LigerRider 82]

I would like to see more random, unique houses or shacks in the middle of nowhere. Maybe at one spot in a forest with an overgrown road leading from it could have been an old war-vet and avid gun collector's hunting shack (chances for some good loot?), with different, random locations of said shack on every server.

[Scott61 93]

Could not have said it any better,the size of the map is what I like about DayZ

The fact that the map is not chock full of people everywhere I go!

 

I like exploreing,I also like taking my time doing it unlike most who seem to just want to spawn into game then loot up to be fully geared up in 15 minutes

 

In my opinion the big map allows you feel the freedom when playing DayZ. I like the Chernarus for all the emptiness there is because it makes everything more realistic for me. Going somewhere takes time, in that time I can see the nature, explore what I may not have seen yet and meanwhile I can get in situations where having the large areas gives me more freedom of choice how I deal with situations.

[Jex 1104]

I have the opposite view of the map. AFAIK, they brought in some guy who is an artist at map making and I think they've done a stunning job! From 3 valleys, to the burnt out village, to the farmlands of the north, the brick bridge by Vibor, Pobeba Dam (or whatever it's called), black lake, those little wooden bridges, the secret underground military base...... the list goes on and if anything,I wish the map was 4 times the size. 

 

I do think they could add more static things in like a creepy cabin in the woods or a campsite that survivors had made before running off or being eaten alive in their tents, their bones still in them. More story elements to the map like that a big yes but the map as it stands is brilliant - they did amazing work with it.

[Jex 1104]

I'll have to assume you didn't play the mod.

 

When vehicles and persistent items are added, exploring the map will be more attractive. You will have more reasons to explore, and a faster way to do it. That, and they haven't finished their additions to it. We don't know what sort of attractive locations they may be adding, or where.

 

 

I've spent like 2000 hours exploring that map, and I still love it. When the nubs have a reason to keep their pants on and get off the coast, they will too.

 

Have you had the feeling of knowing exactly where you are but feeling entirely lost at the same time because they changed the way a hill looked or some other geographic feature?

[igor-vk 909]

.... the secret underground military base...... 

 

wat????

[Zeppa 562]

Map size doesnt really matter when it comes to RV-engine, when the forests etc lack huge detail like undergrowth and terrain level variety, all together its not interesting on any map. Towns are more or less ok as those are easy to spice up with objects.
Also adding fetures etc will make more use of the map and through that more interesting to explore, persistent items will make people seek for camp sites and so on.
As said problem is not the map size, but the lack of content atm.

The thing I dislike the most in RV engines is the draw distance of grass etc and dull terrain variety. Forests need shitload of work to get to the decent level of detail. Doesnt matter if they buy 100 times more detailed satellite pictures when the foundation is shit. The game has 3 dimensios so make use of it.
I also understand that what I ask will demand more from the hardware but its worth it.

ps. Smaller map would only bring it more close to a COD deathmatch... no thanks.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Zeppa

[M0RG0TH 40]

I get lost even when I know where I am because everything looks fucking generic and the same throughout the whole map. No variety what so ever other than positioning.

[Jex 1104]

So you mean it looks like real life then.

[DropBearChick 1216]

I dont like the mod mao bery much, but it is realisric which i liked and big which is always better ;) but with chernarus+ the redone towns, i mean OMG there awesome, svetlo and cernaya are great and the new streams are cool, the swamps are awesome the rock formations are sick, and they are making more buildings everymonth and adding them to towns, so the map will just get better.

[gibonez 3633]

Map is good I just wish it was one big island and the spawns were all around the map.

[agentneo 337]

After playing  a couple hundred hours on Altis; Chernarus seems small and you can run width of Cherna in about 20mins...

[St. Jimmy 1631]

I think the exploring gets quickly very boring because you can run everywhere in no time. Just like fast travelling makes the world very quickly boring in Bethesda games no matter how wonderful they're.

Also you got to blame the spawns just like OP said.

[Lizardo 1]

I strongly agree with the topic creator on this one. I have been playing a good amount of hours now (150+) and i think i have covered almost all sections of the map, andi'm the type of guy willing to do the hiking as long as i haven't seen what is on the other side of the hill, so i consider myself patient :P alot of the people i play with just wanna kill cause the sororundings does not appeal to them in any "exploration-way" all they know is as where there a good loot and thats it.

 

So i will suggest some things i think could create alot of curiosity among the community :)

 

- Underground areas

- More custom buildings

-More "Special" areas like the car junk yards, huge factory areas (that are somewhat in the game already - but with non-enterable building :( )

-More things to do in the wilderness

-And i think when the game progresses it needs to have zones that are virtually unpassable unless you have a shit load of ammo or your a few guys. Like highly infected places that offered some sort of reward for good geared players to go and work together against getting. I think that could really bring a whole new level to the game, even thou i know it would seem pretty weird at the moment i deffinetly think that the developers could do it. Imagine a place you can't get to just cause the amount of zombies :D

 

Alot of what i mentioned above is maybe already in production or in the process of been thought up, and i think when the features i mentioned are implemented we wont see all thoose people flocking around the coast. I also think that they talked about putting in more people on a server which i think would totally make a big difference, if for example 200 people were on the map you could count on seen people almost in every "hot spot" there is.

Good thread! AND OUT WITH THE COPE PASTE CITIES ! :D

 

(Sry for noobish english :P)

Edited April 2, 2014 by Lizardo

[Karmaterror 982]

Dunno if this is the same tthing, but I feel people are more inclined to stay in one area on chernarus+, because every type of loot is avalible in many small parts of the map. Building diversity and cool landmarks could be one waay to make people explore. But I think loot spawns could do it just as well.

 

Take the mod for example, a lot of things only spawned at NWA. This made people head there over and over. They would go from different spawn points and would explore on the way. But now why bother? theres barracks on the coast, all up the west side, even one with the enterable building mid map.

 

Now if they adjusted loot spawns to make it very specific, eg, only chance of a mosin/M4 would be NWA leaving only the sks avalible at most of the other barracks. I think that on its own could encourage a lot more exploration. OK so they are all heading to the same spot, but from different directions and discovering new places each time. They may want to revisit that place or show it to a friend :)

[liquidsnake 275]

I'm just gonna assume you've never been up north. A lot has changed up there and it might change your vision at least a bit. The new towns have the same buildings, yes, but teh design of the streets, placement of trees and benches along the roads give it a  unique feel. The existing towns, though, are indeed all alike. But up north, a new Chernarus is forming. Three new cities as of now, two of which are really unique and really make you forget you are in that good ol' Chernarus. Beautiful ridges and mountains, the likes of which can be seen nowhere else on the map. Rivers (WIP, no water in them as of yet), lots roads that lead to concrete floors (soon to be unique buildings), some roads that seem to form a new town in the future, some unique buildings that are already finished (a train station for example). Go north and see.
South? Except for a few small additions, everything you said.

[Katana67 2907]

Players hanging around a small portion of the map is not a symptom of poor spawn mechanics, or loot balancing or anything, its because the map is poor and the map is poor because it sacrificed so much in order to be bigger than everyone else's map. 

 

The assertion that larger = better isn't a fallacy, its an opinion to be held. One can assert that larger maps are better, based on personal taste (because "better", like most things... is entirely subjective).

 

I take wholesale issue with the above statement. The current "state" of the map, whatever that means to you (I have tons of fun in the north and have for two years) can be explained by the things you dismiss as irrelevant.

 

I'm not sure what it sacrificed to be bigger than everyone else's map either. I mean, can you name a large map that has near 100% enterable non-instanced buildings and all of the systems that go into DayZ (i.e. the basic FPS mechanic, survival mechanics, vehicles (inbound), coherent zombies (inbound) etc.) I think you're placing too much significance on the map and not taking a wholesome outlook as to the aspects which FACTOR IN TO HOW WE USE the map.

 

I have yet to hear the map's size be used as an excuse for not doing X.

 

Nevermind that aesthetically, the north has been upgraded SIGNIFICANTLY. Most of the forests have been improved, there is now a large city north of NEAF (and it looks like one will be going in north of NWAF as well). The towns inland have been completely revamped and are now much more substantial than in the mod. Most have high-value buildings.

 

You said it yourself in the OP, people tend to hang around where they spawn. So why not diversify the spawns so that people hang around in more areas? I'm not sure how this could be done, as I don't want folks spawning inland. But I'm sure it could be addressed. Nevermind that people DO in fact move away from their spawns. But even then, why not give people incentive to move inland or away from their spawns?

 

Loot balancing also plays a heavy role. It dictates, for now, where people travel. It's almost the sole determinant in this. Trouble is, there's too much loot around the coast. Why they thought it prudent to put in a barracks at Balota is beyond me. Moreover, the loot distribution system hasn't been implemented (which will place a finite amount of rare items on the server/hive).

 

Plus, once the zombie numbers are upped and they can actually BALANCE the map, I suspect the large cities on the coast will be near suicidal for the unarmed player.

 

The big thing that you're forgetting, and that has been the case since the mod, is that there's not much to do other than loot and kill people. Even when one is fully geared, there's nothing to do.

 

Even something as simple as persistent storage worked wonders in moving people across the map, just to store equipment. The same can be said about vehicles, which both allow for storage AND allow for rapid movement across the map. Not to mention construction.

 

Likewise, it would've been more prudent to argue that the size-to-player ratio is too low. Meaning that we need to add more players to increase the likelihood of people being in X location across the board.

 

There are just so many competing factors which dictate how folks behave in DayZ that the size of the map is a non-issue when viewed in context.

 

That and I don't have an issue with the coast being a clusterfuck. More loot and wide open space for me.

 

With that said, I do think that in the future (like the next decade) they will have to look into procedurally generated maps.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Katana67