Subsonic and Supersonic Rounds [Torchia Tweet]

[Katana67 2907]

Chris Torchia @ctorchia
@JakeW0518 no plans for sub and supersonic at the moment because it would require separate mags to work right.

 

 

So, does this not conflict with the inclusion of suppressors in-game? I mean, there are 5.56x45 suppressors for the M4, yet they don't actually do anything because, for one, it doesn't modulate sound at all (i.e. change the sound itself, not the volume). And second, we have no subsonic ammunition to use with suppressors so that they can actually be used to quiet rifle shots.

 

Point being, suppressors are pretty useless now. And unless they decide on having them work for normal supersonic ammunition, they need to include subsonic ammo.

 

Wasn't a point of emphasis in differentiating magazines from ammo in SA to get away from the dependency on magazines to dictate the usefulness of the type of ammo inside? This was the case in the mod, and it was sort of silly.

 

Moreover, with the increasingly threatening zombies (and the future revamp of zombie aggro) having suppressors down before that happens is essential.

 

I'm not sure how subsonic ammo would require a different magazine on any of the weapons currently included in DayZ. Likewise, the weapons which already fire subsonic ammunition do not appear to be affected by the use of a suppressor anyhow (I could be mistaken, I haven't had the chance to use a suppressed pistol that wasn't an Amphibia S post-patch).

Edited March 31, 2014 by Katana67

[-Gews- 7443]

Thank God for this...

 

The only gun that would benefit from subsonic would be the 9mm CZ-75.

 

-no military anywhere uses any form of subsonic 5.56

-.45 is already subsonic

-the Amphibian uses high-speed .22 which is automatically rendered subsonic as it passes through the barrel and integral suppressor

[Irish. 4886]

 

Chris Torchia @ctorchia

@JakeW0518 no plans for sub and supersonic at the moment because it would require separate mags to work right.

 

 

YES! ..because contrary to what the OP assumes this is a very good thing. We dont want it like in the mods where you had to have separate ammo and mags. That was BS. Just give working suppressors once they are coded properly and all will be well. I dont mind if it was like some of the mods where only the Zeds could not hear it, but other players hear it fine just nerfs the distance can be heard. Or full on suppressed, either way. :)

Edited March 31, 2014 by lrish

[Etherious 907]

YES! ..because contrary to what the OP assumes this is a very good thing. We dont want it like in the mods where you had to have separate ammo and mags. That was BS. Just give working suppressors once they are coded properly and all will be well. I dont mind if it was like some of the mods where only the Zeds could not hear it, but other players hear it fine just nerfs the distance can be heard. Or full on suppressed, either way. :)

But I miss having separate mags and ammo....it made the game harder and more brutal. This whole make the game easier stuff is killing me, but that's just me. :P

Edited March 31, 2014 by DJ SGTHornet

[Katana67 2907]

YES! ..because contrary to what the OP assumes this is a very good thing. We dont want it like in the mods where you had to have separate ammo and mags. That was BS. Just give working suppressors once they are coded properly and all will be well. I dont mind if it was like some of the mods where only the Zeds could not hear it, but other players hear it fine just nerfs the distance can be heard. Or full on suppressed, either way. :)

 

The mods required you to have separate mags, which were hard-coded with separate ammo values. Which I'm concerned about, not proposing.

 

In the SA this is no longer the case, as the magazines are split from the ammo. Ammo is a separate entity. This is good.

 

Torchia, however, is saying (for some reason) that new ammo would require a new magazine. Thus approaching it the way it was approached in the mod.

 

Either way, I'm not suggesting an approach so much as I'm suggesting making suppressors work somehow. See this statement in the OP, "And unless they decide on having them work for normal supersonic ammunition, they need to include subsonic ammo."

Edited March 31, 2014 by Katana67

[Katana67 2907]

Thank God for this...

 

The only gun that would benefit from subsonic would be the 9mm CZ-75.

 

-no military anywhere uses any form of subsonic 5.56

-.45 is already subsonic

-the Amphibian uses high-speed .22 which is automatically rendered subsonic as it passes through the barrel and integral suppressor

 

Never said .45 was supersonic. Refer to this "Likewise, the weapons which already fire subsonic ammunition do not appear to be affected by the use of a suppressor anyhow (I could be mistaken, I haven't had the chance to use a suppressed pistol that wasn't an Amphibia S post-patch)."

 

I'm merely stating that on the weapons which do fire subsonic ammo, like the FNX, suppressors have no effect. Save for the Amphibia S, which works fine with subsonic .22 LR.

 

Likewise, I'm not suggesting a particular approach. I'm suggesting that suppressors work somehow. Whether that be through just applying "quietness" to all rounds regardless of sub/supersonic qualities. Or, having subsonic ammo be included.

 

But what Torchia said doesn't make sense, whereby a new TYPE OF AMMO requires a NEW MAGAZINE when it would be fired by the SAME WEAPON. If they wanted to include subsonic 5.56, they could just have it use the default STANAG mags. Creating a new magazine doesn't really factor in.

 

If they're not going to include subsonic ammo, then they need to actually have suppressors either facetiously suppress supersonic rounds. Or, they have to include sub-sonic ammo. Either way is fine by me. 

 

And here's a contract blurb from the CTTSO detailing a SOCOM contract for 5.56x45 subsonic ammo issued in 2005

 

"August 24, 2005 - The Tactical Operations Support (TOS) Subgroup of TSWG has awarded a contract off of Broad Agency Announcement 04-Q-4255 for the development of a new 5.56mm subsonic ammunition cartridge for use by US Military Special Forces. The Alliant Lake City Small Caliber Ammunition Company, LLC of Independence, Missouri will develop the ammunition to be compatible with a variety of special purpose weapons"

Edited April 1, 2014 by Katana67

[taco86 156]

I think the disappointing part is that we're not going to have different types of ammo within a particular ammo family...  While subsonic rounds may be fun at some level,  I was really hoping to see rare match grade bullets make it in...

 

As for the technical reason, I'm a little bit confused...  Does Chris mean that you would have to have a specific magazine for a specific ammo type?  Or that only one type of ammo could be loaded into any given mag?

[Katana67 2907]

As for the technical reason, I'm a little bit confused...  Does Chris mean that you would have to have a specific magazine for a specific ammo type?  Or that only one type of ammo could be loaded into any given mag?

 

This is the point of the thread, that some people appear to be missing. It's Chris' reasoning that's confusing. I don't care for one particular approach. But if they wanted to implement subsonic 5.56, they could just use the existing magazines.

 

If that's not possible, then it seems they've retained some level of the scripted/string-based weapon code from the mod despite statements to the contrary. If the ammo is still hard coded to the mags, then that aspect hasn't changed from the mod.

[Weedz 1105]

Sweet! I always got so pissed off about this in the mod.

 

Oh you have a normal M4 and you're shooting subsonic 5.56 rounds full auto? Or even better doing it with a M249 ...

THAT DOESN'T EVEN WORK!!!!!!1!! RAAAAAAGE!!

 

Oh you need MP5-SD rounds for an MP5SD? .... WHAT?!? THAT'S AGAINST THE ENTIRE POINT OF A FUCKING MP5SD!!!!!

 

 

 

To me, basing off the comment he is replying too, it means that it wouldn't work to put both types of ammo into the same mag.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Weedz

[OrLoK 16186]

Hello there

 

Dont forget the key words are "at the moment" so this may change later.

 

To me it also sounds like a legacy issue but thats just a guess.

 

So, basically it does not mean they absolutely will not be implemented.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[-Gews- 7443]

But what Torchia said doesn't make sense, whereby a new TYPE OF AMMO requires a NEW MAGAZINE when it would be fired by the SAME WEAPON. If they wanted to include subsonic 5.56, they could just have it use the default STANAG mags.

This is not the way the engine works, everything is considered a magazine. Magazine = magazine. Clip = magazine. Single rounds = magazine. Changing that would require a bunch of work and so it is not a priority at the moment.

 

And here's a contract blurb from the CTTSO detailing a SOCOM contract for 5.56x45 subsonic ammo issued in 2005

Here is a SOCOM solicitation topic from 2013 which states:

"Today, there is no sub-sonic ammunition currently type classified for use in the calibers provided by any DoD Service."

http://www.sbir.gov/node/385624

and goes on to detail the problems with subsonic ammunition in general and how they aren't currently using any. So I assume that contract was for evaluation purposes. If you see a picture of a soldier with a suppressed 5.56mm weapon - any weapon - he is using supersonic rounds.

I don't want to see random, rare, only-used-by-civilians-who-want-to-show-off-their-suppressors subsonic 5.56mm which in all likelihood would also be unrealistically represented, as it was in ARMA 2 - and therefore I treat the lack of subsonic as generally good news.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Gews

[Katana67 2907]

This is not the way the engine works, everything is considered a magazine. Magazine = magazine. Clip = magazine. Single rounds = magazine. Changing that would require a bunch of work and so it is not a priority at the moment.

 

Here is a SOCOM solicitation topic from 2013 which states:

"Today, there is no sub-sonic ammunition currently type classified for use in the calibers provided by any DoD Service."

http://www.sbir.gov/node/385624

and goes on to detail the problems with subsonic ammunition in general and how they aren't currently using any. So I assume that contract was for evaluation purposes. If you see a picture of a soldier with a suppressed 5.56mm weapon - any weapon - he is using supersonic rounds.

I don't want to see random, rare, only-used-by-civilians-who-want-to-show-off-their-suppressors subsonic 5.56mm which in all likelihood would also be unrealistically represented, as it was in ARMA 2 - and therefore I treat the lack of subsonic as generally good news.

 

Fair enough about the 2013 update. I suspect the original contract was either dropped, or found to be without use.

 

Although, I'm not finding your specific quote in that contract solicitation. SOCOM13-005 in-fact appears to be a solicitation FOR the development of a variety of subsonic cartridges (5.56, 7.62, and .338). So not sure what to make of that. It also seems to be concerned with polymer-cased rounds as well.

 

As to Chris' reasoning, then this would seemingly contradict their weapon revamp from the mod. Whereby they were transformed from strings to objects, IIRC. Could be different for the magazines/attachments.

 

As I said, I couldn't care less about what particular approach is used. But as I said, and Orlok later on, it seems that they've retained some legacy systems which appear to be adding to the confusion. I was under the impression that magazines had been transformed into container objects, into which ammunition is placed. So, as per my previous understanding, it would only require them to add another type of ammo which works in STANAG mags (i.e. subsonic 5.56).

 

I personally think it would be simpler if they did one of two things. One, made suppressors just suppress (as if the rounds were subsonic regardless) all weapons. Or two, have suppressors merely modulate (not diminish the volume of) the sound.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Katana67

[OrLoK 16186]

But as I said, and Orlok later on, it seems that they've retained some legacy systems which appear to be adding to the confusion. 

Hello there

 

Dont forget Im guessing here and we dont know what they have planned.

 

They might remove suppressors altogether and just implement flash "hiders".

 

R moves in mysterious ways. (Although he is not the messiah...)

 

I myself, whether its possible or not would love to have assorted ammo types, especially a self load system to create ones own rounds.

 

Fingers crossed eh?

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[hannibaldaplaya 1095]

Hello there

 

Dont forget Im guessing here and we dont know what they have planned.

 

They might remove suppressors altogether and just implement flash "hiders".

 

R moves in mysterious ways. (Although he is not the messiah...)

 

I myself, whether its possible or not would love to have assorted ammo types, especially a self load system to create ones own rounds.

 

Fingers crossed eh?

 

Rgds

 

LoK

 

If they add reloading, you'll see people picking up the shells and brass from their fired rounds. People will go to Elektro or Airfields just to pick up empty shells on the ground.

 

I'll attach a bucket to the side of my gun so that it catches all of them .:D

[-Gews- 7443]

Fair enough about the 2013 update. I suspect the original contract was either dropped, or found to be without use.

 

Although, I'm not finding your specific quote in that contract solicitation. SOCOM13-005 in-fact appears to be a solicitation FOR the development of a variety of subsonic cartridges (5.56, 7.62, and .338). So not sure what to make of that. It also seems to be concerned with polymer-cased rounds as well.

It's in there. They were looking into it, I doubt they'll adopt any in 5.56. It's a .22-cal... the other two are much larger and have more purpose. I would bet they've also played around with the .300 Blackout. The Russians seem to have got it right with the 9x39mm.

 

As to Chris' reasoning, then this would seemingly contradict their weapon revamp from the mod. Whereby they were transformed from strings to objects, IIRC. Could be different for the magazines/attachments.

 

Single chambered rounds are still magazines, and magazines themselves still can only use one single type of ammunition. Single rounds inside magazines are just a digit.

 

I personally think it would be simpler if they did one of two things. One, made suppressors just suppress (as if the rounds were subsonic regardless) all weapons. Or two, have suppressors merely modulate (not diminish the volume of) the sound.

They should copy real life, you don't need subsonic ammunition for a suppressor to be effective, even with supersonic ammunition it still reduces the sound considerably, and you get to keep the supersonic's superior killing power, range and flat trajectory.

An M4 Carbine produces about 165 dB, with a suppressor that could be reduced to a mere 135 dB. For comparison a Ruger 10/22 (unsuppressed) produces about 140 dB.

So to the human ear, even with supersonic ammunition the suppressed M4 carbine should appear roughly 6 times quieter...

In addition a suppressor can confuse enemies as to the location of the shooter, since the loudest sound for the target is the crack that accompanies a passing bullet (90 degrees from the shooter's actual position) and which may also reverberate off surroundings.

[Weedz 1105]

An M4 Carbine produces about 165 dB, with a suppressor that could be reduced to a mere 135 dB. For comparison a Ruger 10/22 (unsuppressed) produces about 140 dB.

So to the human ear, even with supersonic ammunition the suppressed M4 carbine should appear roughly 6 times quieter...

In addition a suppressor can confuse enemies as to the location of the shooter, since the loudest sound for the target is the crack that accompanies a passing bullet (90 degrees from the shooter's actual position) and which may also reverberate off surroundings.

 

Also if you're using supersonic rounds you can actually use it like an assault rifle and not like a bolt action which you have to do with subsonic rounds.

[sess130 50]

Hopefully, they just make suppressor work without subsonic ammo. I would like to see suppressors work similar to real life. They don't 'silence' the weapon, but distribute the gas and sound from the shot into a wider area to lower the range at which you could be detected. It would still make the sonic crack near your target (for weapons that have one) but would draw less zombie aggro and possibly confuse humans so they don't know exactly where the shot came from.

[Katana67 2907]

It's in there. They were looking into it, I doubt they'll adopt any in 5.56. It's a .22-cal... the other two are much larger and have more purpose. I would bet they've also played around with the .300 Blackout. The Russians seem to have got it right with the 9x39mm.

In addition a suppressor can confuse enemies as to the location of the shooter, since the loudest sound for the target is the crack that accompanies a passing bullet (90 degrees from the shooter's actual position) and which may also reverberate off surroundings.

 

I did confer with my Marine buddy and he said they kept subsonic 5.56 around mainly for the purposes of neutralizing dogs in Afghanistan. But yeah, still a very niche use.

 

I see what you're saying with regard to suppressors, I have doubts about whether or not they could render all of that in-engine. But would be lovely! Definitely a good breakdown.

 

EDIT - I suppose I'm more concerned about how they'll work out for zombies, rather than human beings. Even more doubtful that they could do anything more than have a decreased aggro range when firing with a suppressor. Which would suffice I suppose.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Katana67

[-Gews- 7443]

DIT - I suppose I'm more concerned about how they'll work out for zombies, rather than human beings. Even more doubtful that they could do anything more than have a decreased aggro range when firing with a suppressor. Which would suffice I suppose.

IIRC the aggro in ARMA was based on the bullets that were "spawned" when the gun fired, AI didn't react to the actual noise made, hence the need for the subsonic ammo for all suppressed weapons.

[St. Jimmy 1631]

Why different magazine is needed? They build a new system but didn't change that? I'm bit dissapointed if what Torchia said is right.

[gibonez 3633]

Sounds like good news to me this would mean if this beauty got added to the game it would have the same long range potential as an unsuppressed remington 700.

 

[-Gews- 7443]

Why different magazine is needed?

 

Because each magazine can only take one type of ammunition.

 

 

 

class Garand_8Rnd : Magazine {

scope = public;

displayName = "8Rnd .30-06 clip";

descriptionShort = "A clip for eight .30-06 rounds.";

model = "\ca\magazine\clip_garand.p3d";

ammo = "B_3006_M2_Ball";

count = 8;

initSpeed = 855;

tracersEvery = 0;

};

 

 

 

Since magazines are an item that can now be refilled maybe they could do like so:

 

 

 

class Garand_8Rnd : Magazine {

scope = public;

displayName = "8Rnd .30-06 clip";

descriptionShort = "A clip for eight .30-06 rounds.";

model = "\ca\magazine\clip_garand.p3d";

ammo[] = {"B_3006_M2_ball", "B_3006_M1_ball", "B_3006_M2_AP",  "B_3006_M2_tracer"};

count = 8;

initSpeed = 855;

tracersEvery = 0;

};

 

 

But then they would also need to have a separate initSpeed for each different type of ammunition.

[St. Jimmy 1631]

Dam that's bad news. They need to redo alot of things before different ammo in same magazines could work.