Why The Distinction Between Civilian/Military Weapons Is Bad, And You Should Feel Bad

[Katana67 2907]

Of course, a weapon is just a tool and its up to the user. However I'm sure its not lost on you as to why the world's militaries use modern, high powered assault rifles instead of bolt action rifles.

 

It's not lost on me at all.

 

But assault rifles aren't wholly BETTER than a bolt-action in every scenario, which is what I'm saying. The scenario dictates the effectiveness (including the operator), not just the weapon. Hence why standard service rifles tend to be assault rifles and marksmen/snipers rely on bolt-actions. It's all in how you use the weapon.

[Sebidee 167]

It's not lost on me at all.

 

But assault rifles aren't wholly BETTER than a bolt-action in every scenario, which is what I'm saying. The scenario dictates the effectiveness (including the operator), not just the weapon. Hence why standard service rifles tend to be assault rifles and marksmen/snipers rely on bolt-actions. It's all in how you use the weapon.

 

and also there in lies the difference between military and civilian weapons. Military is all about high rate of fire for suppression as well as durability for less than favourable conditions and likely poor maintenance opportunities. Also, they need to be able to be mass produced.

 

Civilian weapons are different. The main uses would be protection or hunting. High rates of fire are useless for hunting, after a few shots accuracy is out the window, what you need is an accurate, high caliber weapon for taking things out at long distance which may be quite a lot bigger than a man. For protection you might need the opposite, something small and compact which can be carried.

[NagsterTheGangster 388]

My simple response. Moderation in everything.

 

P.s. Great post. Well structured and informative.

[gibonez 3633]

Here is some food for though.

 

Military contracts are awarded to the LOWEST BIDDER.

 

Most of the time Civilian weapons are far more accurate, more reliable and better manufactured than military firearms.

 

Take an Ar15 you can build a sub moa ar15 with a free floated barrel along with tons of ergonomic other upgrades that have been brought out due to a robust and prosperous civilian gun market.

 

Meanwhile a standard issue m4 while a great weapon usually is not as high quality as a civilian ar15.

 

Another such example is the precision rifle market world wide.

 

Civilians for example have access to better quality components, optics and chassis/stocks compared to military sniper rifles.

 

The single biggest improvement when it comes to precision firearms however is the quantity and quality of civilian match ammo it is miles ahead of what the military procures.

[Etherious 907]

So, for the past two years, I've been a staunch advocate of so-called "military" weapons in DayZ. As such, I've been constantly combating several assertions. Which are as follows...

 

1. That Chernarus is a supposed eastern-bloc and/or former Soviet nation, which therefore means that only eastern-bloc/Warsaw Pact weapons should be included

2. That "military" weapons are somehow opposed to the spirit of DayZ

3. That "military" weapons are somehow incompatible with DayZ, by virtue of their being "overpowered"

4. That "civilian" weapons provide a better experience

5. That "civilian" weapons are fundamentally different from "military" weapons

 

I've realized one thing in that two years (aside from that people are imbeciles)... the distinction is WHOLLY IRRELEVANT and DETRIMENTAL. For several reasons...

 

1. Most weapons, even the so-called "civilian" ones, are the product of military development

2. A Mosin-Nagant equipped with a scope and a high-speed-low-drag M40A5 with a scope would essentially be the same weapon for the purposes of DayZ

3. There's nothing inherent in an assault rifle that makes it wholly better than a battle rifle, high-powered hunting rifle, etc.

4. If one disregards all weapons which have been developed/employed by the military, one is left with an INCREDIBLY small spectrum to draw from

 

Any weapon (be it an M107, PKM, AKM, or Red Ryder) can be included, inasmuch as it is properly balanced by rarity, maintenance requirements, encumbrance, and ammo/magazine rarity. So why would we limit the scope of potential weaponry in DayZ?

 

Now, this might seem pretty inflammatory to the crowd that I'm so familiar with that will defend so-called "civilian" weapons to the teeth and seek to banish "military" weapons asunder with vitriolic references to other franchises.

 

I get that the developers are interested in making the weapons of DayZ reflect the environment (i.e. a fictional, key word fictional, post-Soviet state) and be more plausible in terms of available weaponry (i.e. a focus on "civilian" weaponry). That's fine, I support making "military" (whatever attributes you choose to ascribe to that) weapons rare and "civilian" weapons more common. I'm also in support of having Warsaw Pact weapons be the primary focus of weapon development (i.e. AKM, PKM, RPD, SVD, etc.)

 

But, lest we forget, all of the above weapons are DING DING... weapons employed by the military. Even the lowly Mosin-Nagant has an intense military history. If we ignored all weapons with a so-called "military" background, we'd be left with an unremarkable set of weapons to choose from.

1. Bolt-action hunting rifles (many of which have been extensively employed by militaries across the world)

2. Lever-action rifles (formerly employed by many militaries across the world, and now much harder to come across than other types of firearms)

3. Revolvers (formerly employed by many militaries across the world, and now no more prevalent than other sidearms)

4. Over-under and side-by-side shotguns

5. Breechloading riles (i.e. Blaze 95)

6. Semi-automatic sporting rifles (i.e. .22 LR)

(I'm sure I'm missing a few more)

 

All but one (lever-action) are already in the effing game! And you'd be missing out on...

1. Light Machine Guns

2. General Purpose Machine Guns

3. Assault Rifles

4. Submachine Guns

5. Designated Marksman Rifles/Battle Rifles

6. Infantry Automatic Rifles (i.e. M27, L86, AUG HBAR, RPK, etc.)

7. Anti-Materiel Rifles (Yes, I know they're not going to be in DayZ, but they're a category nonetheless)

8. Semi-automatic and pump-action shotguns (Yes, I'm aware that they have civilian applications as well... hence why the distinction is irrelevant)

9. Semi-automatic pistols (Ibid.)

10. PDWs (i.e. P90, KAC PDW, etc.)

Et cetera.

 

Likewise, I'll say this again, Chernarus is a fictional location. It may be set as a post-Soviet state within that setting, but the Armaverse dictates that NATO/USMC intervened in Chernarus. Therefore, the presence of non-Soviet/Eastern weaponry is plausible. Not saying it should be MORE PLENTIFUL than Warsaw Pact stuff, but it's not out of the question.

 

SUMMARY

 

- The distinction between civilian/military weapons is irrelevant and unnecessarily limits the variety of weapons able to be present in DayZ

- Any weapon can be included, insofar as it is balanced by rarity, maintenance, encumbrance, and ammo/magazine rarity

- Chernarus is a fictional location and although said fiction casts it as a post-Soviet state, it is not WHOLLY beholden to real-world circumstance. Likewise, the fictional background of Chernarus provides for a VARIETY of Warsaw Pact/NATO weapons to be present in-country

- Most of the weapons in DayZ as it stands now, are weapons employed by various militaries

Thank you for the summary! And great post, you made a really great point. +1 Beans!

[Judopunch 523]

Your writing a really long post basically arguing semantics.

 

The general usage of the term 'Military weapons' in the game DayZ, refers to weapons that have more probability to be located at military bases. Thematically used by the modern UN/Chenarus forces. It includes high quality, modern, weapons.

 

The usage of "civilian weapons" refers to out dated military weapons, and weapons commonly found in mass production for consumer use with a lower manufacturing cost. 

[Whyherro123 2283]

I just want a Throne-damned Lasgun. 60 shots per power pack (which can be recharged using electricity, solar energy, or fore), adjustable fire modes, lightweight, and effective. 

"The AK-47 of the 41st Millenium. The very best there is.  When you absolutely, positively, must have a more effective logistical supply than every motherfucker in the room, accept no substitutes"

[Valadain 270]

Hello there

 

To me the distinction between Civilian and Military weapons is as one of the above posters said.

 

Military is still in use or recent

 

Civilian is either out of service or never widely adopted by he military.

 

Obviously this does not cover every eventuality.

 

Id like to see more civ style weapons as in my mind it fits the DAYZ ethos better. If I want millions of guns I play Arma. Thats just how I think. Not necessarily God given truth handed down on a stone tablet, just how I feel.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

 

EDIT: I just want to clarify, when we use these terms I think we ALL know what we mean, the same with clip or mag.

 

I know what people mean by it, but it is wrong. Absolutely wrong. There are plenty of modern civilian weapons. The only real distinction that can be made between the two is Selective Fire vs. Semi-Automatic.

[Katana67 2907]

Your writing a really long post basically arguing semantics.

 

The general usage of the term 'Military weapons' in the game DayZ, refers to weapons that have more probability to be located at military bases. Thematically used by the modern UN/Chenarus forces. It includes high quality, modern, weapons.

 

The usage of "civilian weapons" refers to out dated military weapons, and weapons commonly found in mass production for consumer use with a lower manufacturing cost. 

 

Right, I'm arguing semantics to UNDERSCORE the futility of the distinction.

 

When people say "I don't want military weapons, I want civilian weapons", they don't mean "I don't want weapons spawning in military buildings". Likewise, I'm here to say that there's nothing WRONG or inherently contradictory with "military" weapons in DayZ.

 

 

and also there in lies the difference between military and civilian weapons. Military is all about high rate of fire for suppression as well as durability for less than favourable conditions and likely poor maintenance opportunities. Also, they need to be able to be mass produced.

 

Civilian weapons are different. The main uses would be protection or hunting. High rates of fire are useless for hunting, after a few shots accuracy is out the window, what you need is an accurate, high caliber weapon for taking things out at long distance which may be quite a lot bigger than a man. For protection you might need the opposite, something small and compact which can be carried.

 

Most weapons are mass produced.

 

Likewise, the military doesn't ALWAYS prefer high ROF weapons. See battle rifles. See bolt-action sniper rifles. See 3-round burst vs. automatic.

 

Either way, folks, I'm not saying one is better/more worthwhile than the other. I'm saying they both have equal right to be in DayZ.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Katana67

[Weedz 1105]

Right, I'm arguing semantics to UNDERSCORE the futility of the distinction.

 

When people say "I don't want military weapons, I want civilian weapons", they don't mean "I don't want weapons spawning in military buildings". Likewise, I'm here to say that there's nothing WRONG or inherently contradictory with "military" weapons in DayZ.

 

No you're arguing semantics over the fact that you can't get over current civilian weapons that were used 75 years ago in the military can now be civilian weapons found in people's homes because they are old and no longer used by the military. The game clearly breaks up what is a military weapon and what is a civilian weapon based on what building designation type they spawn in. Military buildings spawn military weapons because that is where the military was; houses and barns spawn civilian weapons because that is where the civilians were. The game already distinguishes what is what for you.

 

When people say they don't want military weapons they aren't talking about M4's or AKMs people don't want the things like high powered semi-auto thermal sighted sniper rifles or scoped LMG's that spawn frequently in the same places every time because you aren't supposed to be a military sniper or machine gunner who hides in 1 spot for hours straight killing anything that is still alive not even caring about survival aspects of the game or even dying because you know you can just respawn and run back to another military spawn area and get another gun within minutes. You are supposed to be a civilian of Chernarus running around trying to survive the apocalypse not Steve McSniperson hiding on a hill for 2 hours straight so you can shoot 10 bullets in a second at 1 guy 1000M away.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Weedz

[Katana67 2907]

No you're arguing semantics over the fact that you can't get over current civilian weapons that were used 75 years ago in the military can now be civilian weapons found in people's homes because they are old and no longer used by the military. The game clearly breaks up what is a military weapon and what is a civilian weapon based on what building designation type they spawn in. Military buildings spawn military weapons because that is where the military was; houses and barns spawn civilian weapons because that is where the civilians were. The game already distinguishes what is what for you.

 

When people say they don't want military weapons they aren't talking about M4's or AKMs people don't want the things like high powered semi-auto thermal sighted sniper rifles or scoped LMG's that spawn frequently in the same places every time because you aren't supposed to be a military sniper or machine gunner who hides in 1 spot for hours straight killing anything that is still alive not even caring about survival aspects of the game or even dying because you know you can just respawn and run back to another military spawn area and get another gun within minutes. You are supposed to be a civilian of Chernarus running around trying to survive the apocalypse not Steve McSniperson hiding on a hill for 2 hours straight so you can shoot 10 bullets in a second at 1 guy 1000M away.

 

Yeah, not saying they're not different. Cool it. 

 

Your point is taken, and disagreed with heavily. Moving along.

[agouti 105]

 

Here is some food for though.

 

Military contracts are awarded to the LOWEST BIDDER.

 

 

Military contracts used to be awarded to who made the best requested rifle after extensive testing and forcing multiple useful and adequate rifles against each other until only one remained. Handguns too.

 

 

Any when many people refer to not wanting military weapons, I get the impression they do mean AR-15s, and AKs. Probably europeans.

[gibonez 3633]

 

 

Military contracts used to be awarded to who made the best requested rifle after extensive testing and forcing multiple useful and adequate rifles against each other until only one remained. Handguns too.

 

 

Any when many people refer to not wanting military weapons, I get the impression they do mean AR-15s, and AKs. Probably europeans.

 

 

 

Yea they used to but now that is no longer the case.

 

Most of the items the military procures are either through political means or simply given out to the lowest bidder who might not produce the best quality materials.

[The_Monk 320]

Isn't Chernarus essentially a fictional "Czech Republic by the sea"?

 

If so, a quick googly moogly tells me that the czech military has some decidedly non soviet weaponry. Such as MK48, M60 and the M4.

 

Just because the country was under soviet rule, doesn't mean that is all that is available to them.

 

 

This is something that always bothered me about the "Why are there so many non russian weapons" argument in the mod, and that I'm sure will crop up as more get added to DayZ.

[Weedz 1105]

Isn't Chernarus essentially a fictional "Czech Republic by the sea"?

 

If so, a quick googly moogly tells me that the czech military has some decidedly non soviet weaponry. Such as MK48, M60 and the M4.

 

Just because the country was under soviet rule, doesn't mean that is all that is available to them.

 

 

This is something that always bothered me about the "Why are there so many non russian weapons" argument in the mod, and that I'm sure will crop up as more get added to DayZ.

 

Even not considering that NATO forces came in to try to help at the start of the outbreak. That is what all the downed choppers in the mod were.

[Phalanx102 59]

Honestly, I think OP is right. There really needs to be no distinction in this game. Make military-grade weaponry rare, and ammo even more so, but also be realistic. In a post-Soviet Czech Republic, police forces would have semi-automatic rifles, they would have up to date handguns and the such. Military bases would have military grade weaponry, it's really that simple.

[Katana67 2907]

Isn't Chernarus essentially a fictional "Czech Republic by the sea"?

 

If so, a quick googly moogly tells me that the czech military has some decidedly non soviet weaponry. Such as MK48, M60 and the M4.

 

Just because the country was under soviet rule, doesn't mean that is all that is available to them.

 

 

This is something that always bothered me about the "Why are there so many non russian weapons" argument in the mod, and that I'm sure will crop up as more get added to DayZ.

 

Right, but although Chernarus is based on the Czech Republic aesthetically, it's still a fictional country. So, you can't really apply real-world trends absolutely. This does, however, strengthen the argument of NATO weapons being plausible in Chernarus from a real-world perspective. So I agree with you in that regard.

 

However, I like the approach of acknowledging that Chernarus played host to a USMC/NATO/UN intervention in the fiction... and, that it's a fictional country, which is having fictional circumstances applied to it (i.e. history, zombie apocalypse, etc.) I certainly support the devs making it an authentic environment through the inclusion of Warsaw Pact weaponry and indeed "civilian" weaponry. But, I also think it's important to include so-called "high end" military hardware (whatever that means to you, some people draw the line at a bone-stock M4 as "high-end" and some draw the line at an AS50, go figure) for a few reasons...

 

1. To acknowledge the mod to which DayZ owes its existence - I'm not saying it needs to be a crazy military simulator, I don't want that. But the Armaverse dictates that every weapon in ARMA is to be plausibly found in Chernarus (even the OP ARROWHEAD weapons, as Takistan shares a border with Chernarus). Not to mention, NATO played a role in the outbreak and history of Chernarus, so it would actually be MORE anachronistic (in terms of the fiction) to fully marginalize so-called "military" weapons.

 

2. The realization that Chernarus, although based on a real country aesthetically, is fictional - This therefore giving the developers creative license, and they don't have to abide purely by real-world circumstance. For example, in another post, I highlighted Chris Torchia's tweet which dismissed including the AK-12 on the grounds that no forces CURRENTLY are using it in the real-world. Well, I had several issues with that. One, when does DayZ take place? If it takes place in 2016 or 2020, then it's likely that someone (even the Russians) would be using the AK-12. Two, what does it matter? You can explain it in the fiction... something as simple as, "The Chernarussian Defense Force received a batch of AK-12's pre-outbreak". Three, why does real-world circumstance apply in some areas and not in others?

 

3. It cheapens the so-called "end game", although I don't think there should be an "end-game" in DayZ, it would be a bit silly if you picked up a Mosin and that was the best weapon you could get. These weapons should be suitably rare and difficult to maintain.

[leefriendfield 438]

Good post OP