Rethink Reloading

[yorkmorgan 191]

Your in a firefight, your guns empty, bullets are firing over your head, you need to reload... you press r, and as you sit there panicking your character performs a reload that a veteran navy seal would be proud of... and you don't have to do any of the work.

 

I find this makes reloading far to small a consideration during combat and more seriously spoils immersion as it builds up another barrier between you and your character. I suggest that this particular barrier is one that can actually be broken. The problem is that reloading is a procedure with multiple steps, and this is not well represented by only having to press r (or only have to drag ammo into gun if you don't have any snaploaders).

 

The simple solution I suggest is to make the player explicitly instruct the character to perform each of these steps. I think this would make reload times more realistic, add another skill for the player to learn, make different weapons feel more unique, and mean that if the player is panicking it reflects in his character. I also just think it would be a lot of fun, here's an example:

 

M4A1:

 

1. press magazine release

2. discard empty magazine

3. lock the charging handle

4. prepare new magazine

5. put in new magazine

6. release the bolt

 

This is fairly simple but is much more complicated than it's represented to be in game, This could be implemented in game by assigning a 'weapon part' key, that when pressed prepares your character to receive commands relating to your weapon, (ie. it changes the assignments of other keys), you should then have to press each of these keys to reload, if you forget a step (for instance step 3.), get the order wrong, or try and perform the next step before your character has finished executing the last, your reload should fail or your gun should jam, depending on what you did wrong. Different weapons have different procedures so you would have to experiment in game to work out how to reload each, this also makes different weapons actually play significantly differently, and also makes a clip or speedloader a significant asset (just imagine having to put each of those SKS rounds in individually).

 

I have always found reloading mechanics in games to be disappointing and am surprised that any game is yet to include a proper reloading system. I think that as a game with an emphasis on immersion and player skill that is also still in early access Dayz is well placed to introduce such a system.

 

Thanks for reading, what do you guys think?

 

EDIT:

 

Reading the comments its clear that such a system shouldn't be as complex as illustrated above, and I agree I got a bit carried away. So here's the above example reworked (Thanks to Valadain for pointing out my mistakes):

 

M4A1:

 

Press R (weapon button)

(if weapon is empty this automatically activates the weapon button)

 

1) Press Y (mag release)

2) Press T (Take out  mag and put it away)

3) Press G (get and insert new mag) 

4) Press B (release bolt) This only needs to be done if you were taking out an empty mag

 

(Completing the reload automatically deactivates the weapon button.)

 

You see that if the weapon is empty you only need to press 4 buttons to reload, all these buttons are near WASD and the reload button needn't affect the assignments of WASD so you can still move while reloading. I don't find this too complicated. Here's another example:

 

Mosin-Nagant:

 

Press R

 

1) Press B (Pull back bolt)

2) Press G (Get and insert bullet), repeat this as many times as you want.

3) Press B ( Push Bolt Forward)

 

If the Rifle is already empty you only have to press 3 buttons and you have a bullet ready to go.  

 

I realise such a system would be difficult to implement but it would add another layer of immersion between the player and the character, it would also open up a whole range of actions you could perform on weapons (you could have a safety button, a switch mode button, a check chamber button etc.), and it would definitely give bohemia something to do after vehicles make an appearance :)

Edited March 17, 2014 by YorkMorgan

[Zjasuu 337]

Huh, haven't even thought about that, all games these days have an expert marine corp veteran as the main character.

 

I'd definitely would like if the reloading would take more time. 

[AnyoneInCherno? 187]

Well, I don't like it BUT I don't dislike it. I think it should be harder, but just not to that extent. Maybe for hardcore servers?

[blackberrygoo 1416]

This might be too much , or just what we need I'm not sure yet hahaha .

[srgntpepper 85]

I think thats not a bad idea, as long as we can get through the steps about as fast as we can push the buttons.  Over time, someone who knows guns should be able to reload pretty comfortably and quickly, so as we play the game more we should be more familiar with reloading and doing it quickly.  I think thats a cool idea, as long as to reload we dont have to open and click drag to the gun.

[Bando13204 2]

Well, I don't like it BUT I don't dislike it. I think it should be harder, but just not to that extent. Maybe for hardcore servers?

Agreed. I think it's good enough that you have to load mags. But for hardcore servers maybe an extra step or two. Or just a slightly longer timeframe to reload in general. Considering once you get used to frequently handling a weapon irl reloading becomes second nature, almost like pushing a key on a keyboard. Military experience, not some redneck.

[qww 287]

pressing tab and dragging the ammo into the gun to reload is fine with the mosin, all guns should have to do that i think,

[alldaypk 63]

I agree, something midway though

 

eg,

 

With round in chamber

1. eject mag
2. put in new mag

Reload without round in chamber:

 

1. eject mag
2. put in new mag
3. charge weapon

[TEST_SUBJECT_83 465]

I really like the idea of making the reload mechanic more complex.

I has this idea while reading your post.

To reload you have to press and hold "R" then for each bullet you need to press "LMB" to manually load each round.

 

So lets take the mosin. You press and hold "R" then press "LMB" to load each bullet, then (and this part is a big maybe)

you could physically click on the bolt itself and drag it back and forth in the L shape manually.

By having to press a button for each bullet manually, you now have the option to load only 2 or 3 rounds into your mosin instead of all 5, so if someone is firing at you and the whole animation would have gotten you killed, you now can basically cancel the reloading, but still keep the bullets you started loading before shit went down.

Maybe the timing between each bullet press would have to be evenly spaced to load it the fastest and if you double click to fast when loading, you fumble and drop a bullet?

 

With the revolver it's just hold "R" and press "LMB" for each bullet then releasing "R"...simple!

Same for the shotgun. Holding "R" opens the shotgun, press "LMB" for each shell and release "R" to close the gun.

I would say that any clip or mag would have to be manually loaded the same way. But pressing "LMB" 60 times to load a mag would get real old pretty fast.

So dragging from the pile to a mag would have to remain, unless anyone can think of a better idea?

The M4 ,FNX, or anything speedloaded, would still be just "R" to reload, but maybe you need to hit "R" once to pull out the old mag the press it again to load in the new one, to give you the feeling of actually doing each step.

 

These are ideas that literally just popped into my head after reading this post, so don't get all upset if you hate them.

Im not saying these ideas are what needs to happen, but I really would like to see something done to revamp the reloading system to feel more like your actually involved in the process. Reloading would have to be planned and done at the right time, just like IRL.

 

EDIT: I changed my mind and think this is a better way of going about this:

I think that when you reload that you dont drag the bullets into the gun.

You drag them into your hands and have to manually load each round individually by pressing "F" for each round.

That way in the middle of reloading you can stop and react to an enemy if needed and keep the rounds you have already loaded.

Plus by being able to reload with your hands, you can now hot key a pile of bullets and reload via the hotbar, by pressing "F" for each round you load.

Edited March 17, 2014 by TEST_SUBJECT_83

[Valadain 270]

Just a quick note, for most semi-automatics, you just release the mag, put a new one in, and hit the bolt release. You don't actually charge the weapon again, it locks open when empty.

 

So for instance, the set of steps in the OP is wrong. You don't lock back the charging handle, it is already locked after you fire the last round. You just swap magazines and hit the release. It doesn't take a combat veteran to do that. The only hard part to swapping magazines is putting the empty away and pulling a loaded magazine.

 

There is also no "preparing the magazine". You grab it in your hand and shove it in the well. No trickery with modern magazines. With a tactical vest, the times we have are generally fine. Without a tactical vest, it should likely be a bit longer. If you are keeping your magazines in your backpack, it should take even longer.

 

Still, very minor in the grand scheme.

[kihz 83]

That awkward moment when you didn't know "R" reloaded your gun. Hell, I've been doing it the hard way (drag and drop) this whole time >.<

 

Anyway, I see the point being made that every character seems to know his/her way around any gun they come across. I like the idea to make it take longer, but not a 5-7 step process. I feel 3-4 when using a long gun and 2 when using a handgun.

[rickenbacker 190]

Too complicated. I think we have to assume that our characters have at least some basic weapons training, since they know how to handle a gun, aim and shoot. I'm not the world's greatest or most experienced shooter, but even I don't have to think about what I do when reloading in real life, after practicing a bit it just falls into place automatically.

 

Plus, for gameplay reasons, I don't think this would add anything to the game. 

[yorkmorgan 191]

Thanks for feedback, I think im going to edit OP as on a reread I see I got a bit carried away and its just too complicated.

 

So lets take the mosin. You press and hold "R" then press "LMB" to load each bullet.

By having to press a button for each bullet manually, you now have the option to load only 2 or 3 rounds into your mosin instead of all 5.

I like this...

 

So for instance, the set of steps in the OP is wrong. You don't lock back the charging handle, it is already locked after you fire the last round. You just swap magazines and hit the release. It doesn't take a combat veteran to do that. The only hard part to swapping magazines is putting the empty away and pulling a loaded magazine.

 

Good point, you would only have to do it if the mag you are taking out isn't empty. Also I agree that 'preparing' and putting in new magazine should be done in the same step, im not sure why I used the word prepare now I think about it, I just meant  'get it in your hand'. 

 

[Valadain 270]

 

Thanks for feedback, I think im going to edit OP as on a reread I see I got a bit carried away and its just too complicated.

 

I like this...

 

Good point, you would only have to do it if the mag you are taking out isn't empty. Also I agree that 'preparing' and putting in new magazine should be done in the same step, im not sure why I used the word prepare now I think about it, I just meant  'get it in your hand'. 

 

 

 

Sorry to nitpick again, but if you are releasing a magazine that isn't empty, it almost certainly means there is already a round in the chamber. No need to futz with charging again. In fact, if you do, you lose a bullet and will have to add "pick up bullet from ground".

 

With a bullet in the chamber (swapping a not yet empty mag or on the very last shot) the steps are:

1.) Remove Magazine and put away

2.) Pull magazine and insert into well

3.) Fire gun

[mithrawndo 166]

Sorry, but I really don't like this suggestion. I'm fully in favour of systems whereby the longer you are alive and the more you repeat the process, the more efficient you become at reloading your weapon (and each weapon could and should be treated individually), however the suggestion here is quite frankly just a pain in the ass.

 

Plenty of people in this game couldn't open a can of beans without a butterfly/rotating wheel can opener, let alone do it successfully with a lever opener or a knife, but this ability is assumed for the purposes of playability - it's the same principle as suspension of disbelief in films. I don't see any suggestions that we should have to go through multiple steps to open our tins of beans either (cue these suggestions now).

 

Sorry. It's a well thought out idea and I appreciate your effort, but I'm going to keep my beans.

[akafugitive 244]

I like the idea, I don't like the multiple different keys though, I dont use a traditional keyboard to play DayZ. As someone who is well trained in reloading I am capable of doing this while moving or focusing on other tasks as well and it seems like it would require too much focus. I wouldn't mind if you needed to press "R" to initiate and end a reload action, and "Mouse 1" preform the reload action(s) once initiated though. You would still have to be focusing on preforming a reload without being too sloppy.

What I really hate currently is Bolt actions(mosin) automatically racking the bolt after a shot, I want to watch my round impact when I'm looking through a rifle scope.
 

 

I think Reload actions should work more like this like this:

Internally loaded Firearms
R - if firearm is jammed; clear jam, otherwise; initiate reload (Open bolt/breach/cylinder/tilt tubular loaded firearm), otherwise; end reload (Close Bolt/breach/cylinder/ return tubular firearm to set stance).
Mouse 1 (from firing stance) - if live bullet is chambered, fire weapon; otherwise if spent case is chambered, cycle bolt; otherwise, dry fire

Mouse 1 (while reload is initiated) - if firearm a loaded stripper clip/speedloader/snaploader is present, load x bullets from stripper clip/speed loader/snap loader till capacity is reached; otherwise, Load 1 round (per button press till full)

Firearm with detachable mags
R - if firearm is jammed; clear jam, otherwise; initiate reload (Open bolt/action/lock back slide or tilt handgun), otherwise; end reload (Close bolt/action/release slide)

Mouse 1 (from firing stance) - if live bullet is chambered, fire weapon; otherwise if spent case is chambered, cycle bolt/action/slide; otherwise, dry fire
Mouse 1 (while reload is initiated) - if mag is inserted, expel mag; otherwise if loaded mag is present in inventory, insert mag; otherwise, load 1 round into breach

 

Advantages:

- Bolt actions would require bolt to be manually cycled after each shot, allowing you to keep eyes on target till round impact (Mouse 1 - shot, Mouse 1 - cycle bolt, Mouse 1 - shot, etc.)
- Handguns that have their slides locked back would animate into a reload preparation (pulled back to chest when pushing R to initiate a reload)

- Tubular loaded shotguns/rifles would animate moving into a reload preparation (sideways tilt the firearm when pushing R to initiate a reload)

- Firearms could now have single rounds loaded in at a time and be returned to firing position

- Firearms would no longer need to be emptied to have bullets added to them

- Would no longer require fumbling around in tab menu to manually load firearms you don't have mags for (Entering inventory would now only be necessary to restock mags)

- Revolvers could be loaded with a single round meaning Russian roulette would be possible (add "spin chamber" action when right clicking the revolver)

Edited March 13, 2014 by akafugitive

[TomatoSupra 207]

Your in a firefight, your guns empty, bullets are firing over your head, you need to reload... you press r, and as you sit there panicking your character performs a reload that a veteran navy seal would be proud of... and you don't have to do any of the work.

 

I find this makes reloading far to small a consideration during combat and more seriously spoils immersion as it builds up another barrier between you and your character. I suggest that this particular barrier is one that can actually be broken. The problem is that reloading is a procedure with multiple steps, and this is not well represented by only having to press r (or only have to drag ammo into gun if you don't have any snaploaders).

 

The simple solution I suggest is to make the player explicitly instruct the character to perform each of these steps. I think this would make reload times more realistic, add another skill for the player to learn, make different weapons feel more unique, and mean that if the player is panicking it reflects in his character. I also just think it would be a lot of fun, here's an example:

 

M4A1:

 

1. press magazine release

2. discard empty magazine

3. lock the charging handle

4. prepare new magazine

5. put in new magazine

6. release the bolt

 

This is fairly simple but is much more complicated than it's represented to be in game, This could be implemented in game by assigning a 'weapon part' key, that when pressed prepares your character to receive commands relating to your weapon, (ie. it changes the assignments of other keys), you should then have to press each of these keys to reload, if you forget a step (for instance step 3.), get the order wrong, or try and perform the next step before your character has finished executing the last, your reload should fail or your gun should jam, depending on what you did wrong. Different weapons have different procedures so you would have to experiment in game to work out how to reload each, this also makes different weapons actually play significantly differently, and also makes a clip or speedloader a significant asset (just imagine having to put each of those SKS rounds in individually).

 

I have always found reloading mechanics in games to be disappointing and am surprised that any game is yet to include a proper reloading system. I think that as a game with an emphasis on immersion and player skill that is also still in early access Dayz is well placed to introduce such a system.

 

Thanks for reading, what do you guys think?

 

EDIT:

 

Reading the comments its clear that such a system shouldn't be as complex as illustrated above, and I agree I got a bit carried away. So here's the above example reworked (Thanks to Valadain for pointing out my mistakes):

 

M4A1:

 

Press R (weapon button)

(if weapon is empty this automatically activates the weapon button)

 

1) Press Y (mag release)

2) Press T (Take out  mag and put it away)

3) Press G (get and insert new mag) 

4) Press B (release bolt) This only needs to be done if you were taking out an empty mag

 

(Completing the reload automatically deactivates the weapon button.)

 

You see that if the weapon is empty you only need to press 3 buttons to reload, all these buttons are near WASD and the reload button needn't affect the assignments of WASD so you can still move while reloading. I don't find this too complicated. Here's another example:

 

Mosin-Nagant:

 

Press R

 

1) Press B (Pull back bolt)

2) Press G (Get and insert bullet), repeat this as many times as you want.

3) Press B ( Push Bolt Forward)

 

If the Rifle is already empty you only have to press 3 buttons and you have a bullet ready to go.  

 

I realise such a system would be difficult to implement but it would add another layer of immersion between the player and the character, it would also open up a whole range of actions you could perform on weapons (you could have a safety button, a switch mode button, a check chamber button etc.), and it would definitely give bohemia something to do after vehicles make an appearance :)

Are you shitting me? If they put this much detail on just reloading, what the hell would it take to fly a helicopter? Should they make it so you have to bend your knees when you walk? That is way too much over complication. I would rather see better mechanics on bullet drop, and bullet physics then have to take 48 minutes to reload.

[alexeistukov 272]

Also should add the problem of your character's hand shaking causing the gun to shake as well or you drop the magazine by accident. Also you could hit the magazine against the rim of the insert chamber by accident.

[alexeistukov 272]

I agree the fact of this being difficult... but other games show signs of realism. In Red Orchestra 2 there is an option for manual bolting. I think it would be best to have manual bolting in Dayz(more realism obviously). But having to press 8 keys or so to just reload is a waste of time IMO.

[doublebrain 255]

Are you shitting me? If they put this much detail on just reloading, what the hell would it take to fly a helicopter? Should they make it so you have to bend your knees when you walk? That is way too much over complication. I would rather see better mechanics on bullet drop, and bullet physics then have to take 48 minutes to reload.

 

You dont have to quote OP I dont want to see a quote over like my whole screen.... also if you rather see better bullet drop mechanics then better reload... why not both? Explain it and dont go offtopic.

 

So now my opinion in the suggestion: Yes! Maybe not exactly like you suggested it but reloading should be a little more than just R when you have a mag. It should be neccesary to take cover when you are reloading. Not just moving left and right and wait till the mag is in.

[kOepi (DayZ) 35]

doesnt work for me, when holding more than one m4 in hand and on body.
always need to do it manually.

[gomeowmeow 45]

 

M4A1:

 

1. press magazine release

2. discard empty magazine

3. lock the charging handle

4. prepare new magazine

5. put in new magazine

6. release the bolt

1. press magazine release

2.

3.

4. grab new magazine

5. put in new magazine

6. release the bolt if the mag was empty, or your just loading a mag into the gun for the first time after the bolt is closed with no round in it then proceed to pull the charging handle back and relase

[yorkmorgan 191]

Sorry, but I really don't like this suggestion. I'm fully in favour of systems whereby the longer you are alive and the more you repeat the process, the more efficient you become at reloading your weapon (and each weapon could and should be treated individually), however the suggestion here is quite frankly just a pain in the ass.

 

Plenty of people in this game couldn't open a can of beans without a butterfly/rotating wheel can opener, let alone do it successfully with a lever opener or a knife, but this ability is assumed for the purposes of playability - it's the same principle as suspension of disbelief in films. I don't see any suggestions that we should have to go through multiple steps to open our tins of beans either (cue these suggestions now).

 

Sorry. It's a well thought out idea and I appreciate your effort, but I'm going to keep my beans.

Fair enough you don't like the idea of having to go through the steps, however I would disagree with your analogy with can opening. Can opening is a mundane action that requires little procedural thought to perform. The whole point is that IMO reloading is NOT a mundane thing to do for an ordinary person and would require thought to enact, especially under pressure.  I thus thought that putting the onus on the player to think it through would be a neat way to make the survivors feel more civilian. I also think that having to reload explicitly would be a lot of fun to try and get good at, but reading the comments I think I may be in the minority :).  

[SFRGaming 718]

A bit ultra-realistic

[Valadain 270]

Fair enough you don't like the idea of having to go through the steps, however I would disagree with your analogy with can opening. Can opening is a mundane action that requires little procedural thought to perform. The whole point is that IMO reloading is NOT a mundane thing to do for an ordinary person and would require thought to enact, especially under pressure.  I thus thought that putting the onus on the player to think it through would be a neat way to make the survivors feel more civilian. I also think that having to reload explicitly would be a lot of fun to try and get good at, but reading the comments I think I may be in the minority :).  

 

No, opening a can with a knife is way harder than replacing the magazine on a gun. It just is. Heck, I can field strip an unfamiliar weapon faster than I can open a can with a knife.