Why is hardcore so underpopulated?

[PhillyT 554]

Everyone is on equal footing in a 3PP in Regular.

[Jex 1104]

LOL, it isn't wrong.  Seriously, is it so difficult to admit that 1PP is nothing more than a choice?  There is nothing more difficult about the setting.  As a matter of fact, the complaints of 1PP players is that the 3PP makes the game harder for them.  They feel like they are being abused by wall peepers and want a 1PP to prevent that advantage (or at least to remove that advantage).  So this ridiculous claim that 1PP is harder ignores the very reason for demanding a locked persepctive.

 

I never said anything about a choice, I meant you're wrong in your arguments about which is harder and also, your appraisal of "if we have the same advantage it's all ok" - read my posts above the one I quoted you on and you'll see why I think your arguments aren't compelling and easily countered.

 

If it boils down to a choice thing then there's nothing there to argue :)

[dgeesio 1034]

yes always the same . whine people want hc then realize when they get em they dont. :lol:

[6The6Count6 28]

Everyone is on equal footing in a 3PP in Regular.

 

Oh yea that lad behind the wall who can look over it thanks to abusing 3pp while the poor bastard in the street cant look in, that's well fair that.....

Just no.

[Jex 1104]

HazZarD87, on 28 Feb 2014 - 4:18 PM, said:

1PP enthusiast got their 1PP servers and still have something to whine about? This isn't about 3PP or 1PP anymore. This is about a bunch of people desperatly searching for something they can point to and say "look how much better I am!!"

Eeeeeeeexactly.

 

Best part is they try to point to Dean and his feelings, as though that matter one single tiny bit.

 

Who's saying "they're better" because they play 1st person over 3rd? That's a stupid position to hold. I play 3rd person right now. I don't mind it, it's certainly less immersive and easier than the 1st person shooters and there's something aesthetic to be said about seeing your character running around to.

[Jex 1104]

Everyone is on equal footing in a 3PP in Regular.

 

No they aren't - I already destroyed your arguments if you would care to read up.

[finalstraw 193]

It isn't just footsteps..

 

Much of the audio needs reworking, but again much of what you talk about is irrelevant. It's also less important in 3PP because again the elevated camera shows you what is near you (even behind walls and cover), in 1PP it's often audio that gives you that missing information. Like hearing footsteps behind a wall, which is why the footstep audio needs some work since it's very hard to 'sneak' in it's current state. Also footwear doesn't currently alter the sound, it would be nice if choosing the right shoes could make a difference.

 

I fully admit that, situation to situation, 3PP creates huge imbalances in favor of campers. I'm not defending 3PP, I'm trying to point out that, the further back you step, the more balanced it becomes. In the image you posted, you could expand the scenario to include a third survivor behind the guy using the camera to peek around the corner, using the same tactic to look at him, so on and so forth.

 

That's makes no sense whatsoever, all you are saying is that like gameplay where everyone is fucking each other over based solely on the environment and camping ability. It also leads to that awful situation where both players have the drop on each other but neither can attack each other because the first person to move will die because the other can see him move from cover (yet is hidden himself). So you either have to run away or try to attack, but it's a guaranteed that you will die. That's just baaad gameplay.

 

This is only a game-breaking issue when 1PP and 3PP players are mixed together. When you isolate and corrall all the 3PP players into their own servers (as is currently the main purpose in having hardcore and normal servers), then those 3PP players are applying their tactics, as unrealistic as they are, against each other, while the people who would be at a major and permanent disadvantage (1PP players) are free from them.

 

The difference between the two modes in terms of playstyle is the pace of gameplay, not so much 'tactics'. It's most noticeable in towns, players in 3PP tend to run around carefree much more as they can see over the walls and objects close to them. In 1PP without that extra information you can't just run around. Someone could be easily hiding behind a wall or object and you wouldn't see them so you have to take care when moving.

 

This is both good for two reason. Stealthy gameplay works as you can hide or evade other players realistically by using cover/objects (again something 3PP voids utterly) and secondly risk/reward actually factors into the gameplay. Risk/reward plays heavily on HC gameplay. This can include things such as exposing yourself in a dangerous situation to get a better view or deciding to run across a street or lean and check before you go.

 

As to the "Fox News" comparison, we both know I was referring to the vitriol constantly spouted by 1PP players at 3PP players. For instance, using terms such as "exploit" is not only using a the word's negative connotation to deamonize a group of players, it also redefines the word, as the mechanic was included for a reason, despite how unrealistic it is, and rather convienently ignores the fact that 1PP allows players to look through walls, an actual exploit.

These kinds of misrepresentations and hypocriticisms are exactly the kind Fox News uses to daemonize, say, same-sex marriage.

 

Well... look up the word exploit. It's perfect description of how 3PP is used gain benefit in the game, negative connotations or not. The 1PP wall glitch is a bug, it can be exploited but it's a bug. Most people thankfully are not aware of it and it only occurs on some objects/buildings.

 

There is nothing to misrepresent about 3PP. You even admit it yourself that it's unbalanced and rewards campers. It's a fact that 3PP gives players an advantage over others in certain environmental situations.

 

The question is, if you are a diehard hardcore player, and are, as a result, unaffected by the flaws of 3PP, why the name calling? Why fume at the mouth? Whatever normal players are doing has no impact on you. The way they play doesn't change anything about the way you play. Those attacks serve no purpose.

Edit:

Being able to turn your head is a great feature, as is leaning. But neither fully compensates for what is, even under optimal settings, a very limited field of view. Stand facing a wall, from two feet away. How far can you see the wall extend in you peripheral vision? Dozens of feet? Now do it in-game, and compare the difference. I don't think calling 1PP overly-limited was inaccurate, let alone an exaggeration.

 

The problem is that the hardcore player base is affected by the flaws of 3PP. If normal mode is generally easier to play and allows players to gain advantages over others then what mode will the playerbase at large pick to play?

 

Obviously lots of people are going to pick the easier option. For proof of this you need to have played the mod. For the first 3-5 months of the mod the majority of servers were 3PP: OFF. As the months went by and the mod got popular eventually all the 3PP: OFF servers started to vanish.

 

Once the private hives came along (to combat the hackers/scripters) things were made worse as they generally made the game easier to play and turned 3PP on because it was the 'popular' choice. They also made the servers 24/7 daylight, added custom (and pay2win) loadouts and generally dumped the game down to the point that survival wasn't even important.

 

HC players are completely justfied to complain about the implementation of 3PP. This is why the 'muh freedum of choice' arguments don't hold up. If normal mode makes it easier to play the game and gives you advantages over other players then why play the other mode.

 

The snowball effect happens. HC servers slowly lose players, then as nobody wants to play on near/half empty servers they join normal mode servers. Then barely anyone plays HC mode and history repeats itself like the mod. Then we have don't have any choice and are stuck with normal mode.

 

 

Being able to turn your head is a great feature, as is leaning. But neither fully compensates for what is, even under optimal settings, a very limited field of view. Stand facing a wall, from two feet away. How far can you see the wall extend in you peripheral vision? Dozens of feet? Now do it in-game, and compare the difference. I don't think calling 1PP overly-limited was inaccurate, let alone an exaggeration.

 

We can't recreate human vision on a computer screen, it's impossible and compromises have to be made but you being really desperate here.

 

First person + leaning + independent head movement + a decent FOV is a close as we can get to reality. 3PP is nowhere near reality. It's a disembodied magical camera floating a few feet behind and above your character. The FOV is actually identical to that in 1PP (you can see this the Dslyecxi third person video).

 

Just because playing on a computer screen that can't recreate human vision perfectly does not justify 3PP at all. The fact that 3PP in it's current form is also changing player behaviour and the pace of gameplay is further proof that it's the wrong way to go.

Edited February 28, 2014 by -lOldBoyl-

[HazZarD87 166]

 

HazZarD87, on 28 Feb 2014 - 4:18 PM, said:

 

Who's saying "they're better" because they play 1st person over 3rd? That's a stupid position to hold. I play 3rd person right now. I don't mind it, it's certainly less immersive and easier than the 1st person shooters and there's something aesthetic to be said about seeing your character running around to.

 

Bro, do you even read?

[PhillyT 554]

Nextel, you didn't destroy anything. Players are on equal footing when everyone has the same rules and tools at their disposal.

Both types have equal footing.

[doctorbadsign 645]

Nextel, you didn't destroy anything. Players are on equal footing when everyone has the same rules and tools at their disposal.

Both types have equal footing.

 

Not true. With 3PP enabled I could be in a position where I can see you clearly, yet remain in cover in a position where you cannot see me and vice versa.

[PhillyT 554]

You visa versa shows that you are equally capable of using the same tactic. Equal footing.

[doctorbadsign 645]

You visa versa shows that you are equally capable of using the same tactic. Equal footing.

 

Yeah, but if you're in that position it really isn't equal footing, you can peep over and kill someone before they have a chance to see you. Normally to take a peek at someone from behind cover you have to risk exposure.

[liquidmind 320]

I understand why people want to play 1st person only and I get why people want to be able to go to 3rd person. 

 

What I don't get is why some people who claim to play first person, because there are fewer morons playing it, want every moron playing 3rd person to switch to first person. If the community in 1st person is so much better and all the douches stay away, isn't that exactly what you want?

 

Just wondering.. It seems like cutting your own flesh, to want people you don't like on your servers... 

[Sickerthansars 53]

It is a bit annoying the whole "everyone is equal on 3pp" when they aren't, especially since its wrong.

 

If I am laying prone in the upstairs building of a home against the wall in 3pp spinning my camera around I can see you approach from inside while being completely invisible to you and wait until you pass me to either run away or shoot you in the back. 3pp gives extreme advantage to people camping. Whereas in a 1pp viewpoint I would have to actually be at the window looking out it to see you, giving you the opportunity to see me if you were observant. That is equal footing, there is nothing equal about 3pp, so please stop trying to make the idiotic argument that it is.

 

 

On the same side the argument that 1pp "has less idiots" is also false, There are just as many people KOS'ing/people spamming direct chat with nonsense etc on HC servers as their are on normals. Why some HC players have a sense of elitism for playing forced 1pp is beyond me, maybe they are trying to compensate for other shortcomings elsewhere or something.

 

That said, given that 3pp does give an ingame competitive advantage to some players and not others it should be removed and 1pp should be the only viewpoint mode for the game. 

Edited February 28, 2014 by Sickerthansars

[cels 43]

Why doesnt Bohemia just make it so if its not in line of sight you cant see it?

Someone posted a video before of a modder working on this where people, zombies, anything thats not a permanent structure or part of the landscape cannot be seen if its not in LoS.. If they can get it done in a mod, I would think a game company as big as BI could pull it off as well..

I enjoy playing DayZ with having third person(i play 1st person as well if i feel like screwing around electro and such)... and not for what seems to be common of the peoples opinion in this thread and elsewhere that the reasoning is to see over walls and such to have a advantage over someone running by..

To me making "hardcore" just first person is a cheap fix(understandable that it will be more than this in the future)... Theres alot better things i believe would make hardcore servers more to the idea of being hardcore that isnt just view..

From what it sounds like, unless devs for the SA give any word on it, ill soon just be waiting for modded servers to be allowed and will just be playing on the ones that implement this tech since it is being worked on already by modders for the arma2 dayz mod. Then ill still have my third person as well as no over the wall and such out of LoS advantages.

Edited February 28, 2014 by cels

[Jex 1104]

Bro, do you even read?

 

Do u have anything constructive to add?

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

Yeah, but if you're in that position it really isn't equal footing, you can peep over and kill someone before they have a chance to see you. Normally to take a peek at someone from behind cover you have to risk exposure.

thats like saying if someone gets the drop on you, its not fair either..

 

1st or 3rd person views have little to do with being fair or not, its more about situations, sometimes ur the lion sometimes your the lamb.

[Jex 1104]

You visa versa shows that you are equally capable of using the same tactic. Equal footing.

 

That is not equal footing unless both players are aware of each others existence like I said 2 or 3 pages ago. There's no way to argue that a player on a roof has equal footing to a player on the street below.

[doctorbadsign 645]

thats like saying if someone gets the drop on you, its not fair either..

 

1st or 3rd person views have little to do with being fair or not, its more about situations, sometimes ur the lion sometimes your the lamb.

 

There's a big difference between getting the drop on someone and remaining totally invisible without a chance of being spotted, totally uncompromised until their back is turned.

 

Surely you can understand that. I can remain in cover, spot you and keep an eye on you whilst not even compromising myself for a second, I can then wait till the opportune moment and then kill you in 3PP. This is not the same as getting the drop on someone.

[PhillyT 554]

Hiding in a pine tree sets up a situation where one person can see and the other cant. One person armed and the other not is unequal.

You are talking about situations which are equally applicable to similar 1pp ones.

If you want to say 3pp allows ambushes an advantage over runners, then yes. But ambushes are always at an advantage. All players play by the same rules.

[doctorbadsign 645]

Hiding in a pine tree sets up a situation where one person can see and the other cant. One person armed and the other not is unequal.

You are talking about situations which are equally applicable to similar 1pp ones.

If you want to say 3pp allows ambushes an advantage over runners, then yes. But ambushes are always at an advantage. All players play by the same rules.

 

Hiding in a tree or a bush does not provide 100% clear visuals, or cover, nor does it guarantee not being spotted. Hiding on a roof in 3PP pretty much guarantees all of this.

 

Don't get me wrong, play on 3PP all you want, but to say it does not create an uneven playing field is objectively wrong.

Edited February 28, 2014 by DoctorBadSign

[cels 43]

.

Edited February 28, 2014 by cels

[solodude23 649]

I don't care who plays what, but 1PP will always be the choice for me after starting in 3PP. The "tactics" I encountered in 3PP servers all surrounded the ability to see around corners/over ledges without having to expose yourself. It just felt silly. This entirely alters combat and, in my opinion, ruins it. As a result, using proper tactics and moving stealthily in 1PP, I've found, is much more rewarding to the player. Camping is also a less useful tactic, because in order to camp in 1PP you have to be exposed to begin with. No longer can you prone on a roof and see the whole city, just waiting to pop a shot at the first guy you see. Ridiculous.

 

All-in-all, combat feels much more balanced and, well, immersive.

 

I can, however, understand the dislike for 1PP due to things like mouse acceleration and clunky controls. (Though honestly the clunky controls and mouse accel are just the same in 3PP, people are just used to it there)

[PhillyT 554]

Hiding in a tree or a bush does not provide 100% clear visuals, or cover, nor does it guarantee not being spotted. Hiding on a roof in 3PP pretty much guarantees all of this.

 

Don't get me wrong, play on 3PP all you want, but to say it does not create an uneven playing field is objectively wrong.

 

It doesn't create an uneven playing field.  All players have access to all the same tools and tactics.  Who is restricted from using the tactics 3PP allows?

 

And hiding a tree or bush will make you virtually invisible while being in 1PP essentially makes the leaves not exist from most perspectives.  We have all had bush bandits gun for us.

[soulfirez 901]

Really we all still on this ( we have been off topic since page 1) the topic is why are HC servers so under populated.. Answer 3pp is the most popular view to play in at a guess id say 75 to 80% of the players go to 3pp servers. Now some one mentioned basicly what happened in the mod was the 1pp dwindled and died as well people would rather play on a full server than a empty one with the view they prefer.

 

Not currently finding that YET where i am there are 7 HC servers inside 80 ping and 3 of those hold a fairly steady 30 plus players( prime time it can be a pain to get on 1 of these then it sucks because the other 4 never really hit more than 20 or so ) if it stays at that level i am happy i can play hc and you can play regular be it easier harder more  comfortable to play feels more immersive whatever...

 

Honestly i give up on this whole talk ( time for seperate forums aswell as seperate hives lol..