Third Person Fix

[harley001 315]

Why does everyone say first person gives them headaches?  Is it the FOV or did they forget you can turn off the head bob...

[darksteeljorge 96]

If you have problesm play in hardcore servers

[kroms001 99]

Personally I like the 3rd person perspective, I like being able to look to the side of me, and yes - the exploit needs to be fixed and I rather like the 2017 fix, looks a tad buggy, but it is something that can be worked with.

[Wolfguarde 108]

If the devs are planning on implementing a third person view 'fix', then fine. Honestly, if they're arguing about it, they're probably trying to work out the best way to shut people up about it without risking community backlash.
 

The problem is people gaining information that they shouldn't have access to. You cannot argue that if we're both crouched behind the same wall and you can see over that wall, but I cannot, that you automatically have an information advantage over me. It may not be enough for you to win the coming battle, but it definitely gives you a massive edge over me.

 

I have no problem with the fact that you can see around obstacles/corners with it. It is an advantage, yes. It also gives you an alternative to first person, which I find to be frustrating and annoying as a perspective. Yes, third person view gives you an advantage. Yes, it means people can see you when they wouldn't be able to in first person.

That's our problem. The third person perspective players. It does not affect you unless you make the choice to play on our servers.

The main justification I've seen for first person perspective players arguing against third person view as it currently is is that some of them can't play in first person without becoming nauseated. No doubt there's a number of people with a legitimate issue here, but I honestly think half of you are saying it simply because it's proven something that's hard for people to argue against. You're pushing whatever points you can to get third person nerfed because you simply do not like it. I also think this is more an issue of video settings than one of viewpoint... or possibly just a result of being too close to your monitor. I used to get the same thing, albeit in other games, and it turned out that having the monitor too close/far away was the problem in each case.

Of course, that might not be relevant to your issue, but all the same: try it and see if I'm right. You might save yourself a lot of grief.

 

***

I find the general argument about first and third person perspective ridiculous for a couple of reasons.

First and foremost is simply that each group has their own servers. The problem, such as it is, has already been resolved; the hardcore players simply aren't going to be satisfied until everyone has been converted to their playstyle. Again, I'm going to leave a reference to the Dark Ages and let you work out why I'm bringing it up.

Second is that you're arguing for first person perspective as if this game has been advertised as a first person shooter with third person perspective. It has not. It has been advertised as a horror survival game. It happens to have guns in it. It happens to have multiple perspectives. One of those perspectives happens to provide an advantage for players who use it. The advantage or disadvantage provided by your perspective is entirely dependent on your preference. If you don't like playing in third person, then you forfeit the extra visual space you would have with it in exchange for a more immersive experience. It is your choice. It is not something that should be forced onto other people.

I say all of this as someone who is utterly indifferent to the outcome. I just find the fact that people are still arguing over this bullshit fucking annoying. It has been resolved. You have seperate servers and will eventually have seperate hives to keep third person loot hoppers off your servers. Yet you're still arguing as if people playing on other servers has any impact on you at all. If you don't like third person, don't play on servers with it enabled.

[Dusty_ 48]

Hardcore servers my friend.

[cels 43]

Hardcore servers my friend.

Not everyone likes playing in 1st person view the whole time.. Dean himself has even stated that he switches between first and third person a lot more in the standalone..

 

And personally.. I don't find 1st person to be considered "hardcore" when the biggest thing about 1st person is its ability to break this issue.. Its why I enjoy playing 1st person servers mainly when I feel like running around Cherno and such. Your choice in view is more so immersion, it doesnt fix a issue..

 

The major thing 1st person does is stop the wall exploiting, outside of that its just preference to your view.. People can call it what they want but to me its exploiting and can be fixed as shown above.. They had this suggestion before they even went with deciding to split the servers before between 1st person and 3rd person servers and its something people obviously still want so no, just saying go to 1st person servers doesn't solve the problem.. 

 

If i have to choose between playing only in first person or dealing with people looking over walls in third person.. IF they dont want to take this suggestion.. Ill end up still playing on servers that allows third person cause I enjoy switching between views.. Really ill just end up playing on the guys mod that fixes this issue already and not even bother.

 

Hell.. Fix it so you cant exploit third person and add it to whats defined as "hardcore" servers.. Im sure you will see alot more people start playing hardcore since its not just first person view.

Edited March 1, 2014 by cels

[Nicko2580 398]

I say all of this as someone who is utterly indifferent to the outcome. I just find the fact that people are still arguing over this bullshit fucking annoying.

To put it quite simply - get over it. If you're indifferent (which your long post clearly proves you're not) what are you doing here? 

The argument about servers is ridiculous. I've stated multiple times that I can't get onto hardcore servers very often; there are simply no populated ones here that show up in my lists consistently. Even if there were hardcore servers I am just as entitled to play on a regular server as you are, in my chosen perspective, without people having an advantage over me. 

The true argument, completely aside from the availability of hardcore servers, is why should 3pp players get a clear cut advantage over 1pp players. Hardcore will eventually have a lot of difference between it and regular. Plenty of people don't want to play on hardcore, but still want to use 1pp and that gap will increase as changes get made to hardcore. Why should those players be penalised solely for their choice of perspective?

There is a clear way to have an even footing between 3pp and 1pp players, making the game fair for everyone regardless of what server they play on and not forcing players into a hardcore mode that they don't want to play.  

If you can't provide a compelling argument as to why 3pp players should be allowed to keep the massive advantage that their perspective gives them over 1pp players then those of us who get annoyed by this exploit will continue to talk about it. Saying, "Play on hardcore" just doesn't cut it. The problem isn't about Hardcore Vs Regular.

It seems to me that those of you who argue for 3pp can't answer the above and simply want to keep your advantage at the expense of anyone who plays in 1pp - this is what the arguments from most people who support 3pp boil down to. 

 

Edited March 1, 2014 by Nicko2580

[Canned Muffins 82]

I play both servers because I like having two characters who I play differently. Oddly enough hardcore is much easier in terms of difficulty when PVP is a concern. The combination of low populations(more loot,less threats) across a majority of hardcore servers and how many people play in these servers lends them to being easier to deal with. Regular servers are more challenging in PVP and PVE because of population size and classic 3rd person game-play tactics. Some consider these tactics exploits or cheap but it requires positioning and patience.A player caught out of cover is one who will always be at a disadvantage to one who is concealed in cover.Also stationary/static position defending is less visible and dangerous than mobile movements and attacks.  Its a DayZ skill set thats been rewarded from the beginning. Also it should be noted that all the peaking does is give you visual confirmation you can't do any damage without exposing yourself.Advantage is only gained in terms of knowing a targets position and possible movements. You are not going to be able to capitalize on this knowledge without exposing yourself to the other person(s). The element of surprise is all the advanted you may gain from peaking but even with surprise you can get a vacation to the shore if you are not better than the other player in gunplay.

Some of the biggest names in the industry of gaming have third person perspectives and motion trackers/radar that are optional by player preferences and gamemode choices. Star Wars Battlefront,Gears of War,Assassins Creed,Splinter Cell,Socom,ect... all still have very competitive communities and players who enjoy 3rd person gameplay regardless of these aspects. Hot air is being blown by opponents of third person gameplay because they know for a fact that the history of the gameing industry/community is against them on this. These features and abilities exist in todays games as they did in the past not by mistake but by demand.

DayZ SA will also allow this preferred style of game-play because its what the community enjoys and wants. We have separate hives and eventually private hives for people who want altered game-play experiences. I found it humorous that one poster brought up the subject of respect and saying he could not respect players who simply play differently and enjoy different game-play from him. Asking for a change to conform to his view is selfish and arrogant to say the least. We have separate hives and servers to cater to all types of players and you all are free to pick the servers you see best.If you are still not satisfied put your money where your large mouths are and host a server and run it how you wish and modify however you like. If you are demanding change please provide a valid set of statistics supporting that the majority of the community wants this change. 

Don't force your gameplay preferences on others when its clear that the majority of this community values both options being available. Removing options from the community is the opposite direction DayZ should be going.These threads should start getting closed and the posted banned as these are simply circle jerks from any game who has both first and third person perspectives. Spam and flaming is the bulk content of these threads. To many people complaining here rather than populating the servers that lay desolate and underpopulated. 

For myself I will play both because I value having two separate avatars to play with. The elitists that believe themselves better for picking one game mode over another is laughable. After 300 hours in the standalone and countless in the mod I never found myself bound by this bullshit belief that what mode you played in mattered because I knew that any scenario was even regardless of perspective. We all spawn on the beach as a Bambi and them we survive however we can. The only unfair advantage you can claim against another player is when they are literally cheating by using some 3rd party modifications and hacking. The game environment is all dependent on how you interact with it. Failing to scout areas fully/properly in a game such as DayZ will result in death. If you take a risk it may not pan out you may lose. We are not entitled to survival in DayZ our decisions determine how long we can put off the inevitable beach vacation. Don't get attached to loot and gear,trust no one,get off the shoreline,don't eat rotten fruit,find a bag,get healthy,don't wear pants in Electro,no friendlies are in Cherno,travel the map,have fun,die,then repeat. Have a good DayZ.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Canned Muffins

[Nicko2580 398]

I play both servers because I like having two characters who I play differently. Oddly enough hardcore is much easier in terms of difficulty when PVP is a concern. The combination of low populations(more loot,less threats) across a majority of hardcore servers and how many people play in these servers lends them to being easier to deal with. Regular servers are more challenging in PVP and PVE because of population size and classic 3rd person game-play tactics. Some consider these tactics exploits or cheap but it requires positioning and patience.A player caught out of cover is one who will always be at a disadvantage to one who is concealed in cover.Also stationary/static position defending is less visible and dangerous than mobile movements and attacks.  Its a DayZ skill set thats been rewarded from the beginning. Also it should be noted that all the peaking does is give you visual confirmation you can't do any damage without exposing yourself.Advantage is only gained in terms of knowing a targets position and possible movements. You are not going to be able to capitalize on this knowledge without exposing yourself to the other person(s). The element of surprise is all the advanted you may gain from peaking but even with surprise you can get a vacation to the shore if you are not better than the other player in gunplay.

Firstly, the challenge in PvP is only present for anyone limiting themselves to 1pp. They are at an automatic disadvantage. The tactics are exploits - you are gaining information that your avatar could not possibly know. 

'Classic 3pv gameplay tactics' - well, this is not a classic game. The point of this game is not PvP. PvP is an option, but it's not the core of what DayZ is supposed to be about. It's not a deathmatch game. It's not TF2 or Battlefront. 

Yes you're correct that you cannot damage someone while in cover, but that's not the point at all. The point is that you can see me from behind solid cover, whereas I cannot see you at all. I have no idea you're there, because you're not in my LoS. 

 

Some of the biggest names in the industry of gaming have third person perspectives and motion trackers/radar that are optional by player preferences and gamemode choices. Star Wars Battlefront,Gears of War,Assassins Creed,Splinter Cell,Socom,ect... all still have very competitive communities and players who enjoy 3rd person gameplay regardless of these aspects. Hot air is being blown by opponents of third person gameplay because they know for a fact that the history of the gameing industry/community is against them on this. These features and abilities exist in todays games as they did in the past not by mistake but by demand.

Fallacious argument. Just because other games have it, doesn't mean DayZ has to have it. DayZ is also not a game about being competitive in the same respect as the games you've listed. There's no leaderboards, no high scores, no tournaments.

 

DayZ SA will also allow this preferred style of game-play because its what the community enjoys and wants. We have separate hives and eventually private hives for people who want altered game-play experiences. I found it humorous that one poster brought up the subject of respect and saying he could not respect players who simply play differently and enjoy different game-play from him. Asking for a change to conform to his view is selfish and arrogant to say the least. We have separate hives and servers to cater to all types of players and you all are free to pick the servers you see best.If you are still not satisfied put your money where your large mouths are and host a server and run it how you wish and modify however you like. If you are demanding change please provide a valid set of statistics supporting that the majority of the community wants this change. 

No one is arguing to remove 3pp totally (at least I'm not). I'm arguing that you should not have an advantage over me simply because you choose to play in a different perspective than I do. It has nothing to do with 'majorities' either. A million people can believe the earth is flat, but it still doesn't magically make it correct. 

You have an advantage by being able to effectively see through any wall or obstacle. It's as simple as that. 

 

Don't force your gameplay preferences on others when its clear that the majority of this community values both options being available. Removing options from the community is the opposite direction DayZ should be going.These threads should start getting closed and the posted banned as these are simply circle jerks from any game who has both first and third person perspectives. Spam and flaming is the bulk content of these threads. To many people complaining here rather than populating the servers that lay desolate and underpopulated. 

Again, I am not asking for 3pp to be removed. I'm asking for the ability for players to see through walls and obstacles to spot other players, zombies or loot in 3pp to be removed. Doing so will mean a level and fair playing field regardless of the perspective any player chooses to play in. 

Once again I get the feeling that the only argument being put forward here is, "I want to be able to see people hiding behind cover because I'm lazy and don't want to expose myself to fire like everyone else has to." - this is not good enough.

 

For myself I will play both because I value having two separate avatars to play with. The elitists that believe themselves better for picking one game mode over another is laughable. After 300 hours in the standalone and countless in the mod I never found myself bound by this bullshit belief that what mode you played in mattered because I knew that any scenario was even regardless of perspective. We all spawn on the beach as a Bambi and them we survive however we can. The only unfair advantage you can claim against another player is when they are literally cheating by using some 3rd party modifications and hacking. The game environment is all dependent on how you interact with it. Failing to scout areas fully/properly in a game such as DayZ will result in death. If you take a risk it may not pan out you may lose. We are not entitled to survival in DayZ our decisions determine how long we can put off the inevitable beach vacation. Don't get attached to loot and gear,trust no one,get off the shoreline,don't eat rotten fruit,find a bag,get healthy,don't wear pants in Electro,no friendlies are in Cherno,travel the map,have fun,die,then repeat. Have a good DayZ.

Every scenario is not even, regardless of perspective:

  

 

How is the spoilered scenario in any way even? You can see me coming while I have absolutely no idea that you are there! I could be the best scout in the game and you still have a huge advantage over me. You can simply wait for me to turn away from you, pop up and shoot me without ever exposing yourself to risk from me. That is not skill or patience or positioning, it's a legal and lethal wallhack. 

Once again, I am not arguing that you shouldn't be able to have 3pp. But it needs to be fixed so that in the above scenario you cannot see me either. I am effectively invisible to you unless you stand up and look over the wall with your characters eyes. 

Here's another one:

 

In this situation you can potentially see me coming from miles away without ever exposing yourself, giving you a huge advantage. You now have a very long time to set up an ambush for me, and I still have no idea you're there even if I am the most observant player in the game. 

If you cannot see the issues with this, then I have to assume you're part of the crowd that just wants cheap and easy kills in a game that is NOT supposed to be about that type of thing.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Nicko2580

[mithrawndo 166]

I'd like to see something like the OPs suggestion implemented so that I can, from time to time, switch to third person mode whilst playing in Hardcore (which after all, is not simply supposed to be first person mode but a different experience altogether!) without breaking the immersion. Sometimes it feels a little claustrophobic, and sometimes I like to be able to just look at my guy sitting in the corner of a barn.

 

Small pleasures. I'd love to see this implemented as an optional features for server administrators. I'm pretty sure all the tools exist to implement with very little work* required.

 

*By very little I actually means scores of man hours, but in the scale of things that's not a lot!

[brazorf 46]

Or you could just play hardcore...?

 

 

What's the point of this all? ^ that's the answer

[mithrawndo 166]

What's the point of this all? <playing in hardcore mode is> the answer

 

No, it's really not.

 

Hardcore is not first person mode, it is apparently going to have further features added and perhaps may even one day not be forced first person only mode any more: That's something that is simply configurable on the server level. Taking the relatively small amount of time out to develop line of sight features would dramatically improve the quality of the experience in both game modes. Honestly, you feel it's acceptable or intuitive to be sitting in third person mode looking out over the whole airfield when you're on a roof? You think it creates a balanced arena in which we can be cruel and unfair to each other?

 

Didn't think so.

[Nicko2580 398]

Hardcore will likely be hugely different in the future:
 

• The aiming reticule will likely be removed.
• Scarcity will be far worse on hardcore than regular.
• Loot respawns will likely be locked at very long periods.
• Temperature and sickness will likely be harsher on hardcore.
• Zombies may be harder on hardcore.

And those are just a few things I can think of off the top of my head, that will likely change closer to release. 

As I said above, "Play on hardcore" is not a valid response to this argument.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Nicko2580

[Wolfguarde 108]

To put it quite simply - get over it. If you're indifferent (which your long post clearly proves you're not) what are you doing here? 

Trying to shut people up about this argument. Since the war thread has been largely ignored for a couple of weeks, the pro-FPP players have been spreading out and trying to link shit that has nothing to do with the argument to third person view. I find it extremely annoying. They're trying to drag people into their argument for the sake of having someone to argue against. I honestly don't think most of us want our threads being derailed for the sake of a minority's war against one of the game's features.

 

 

 

The argument about servers is ridiculous. I've stated multiple times that I can't get onto hardcore servers very often; there are simply no populated ones here that show up in my lists consistently. Even if there were hardcore servers I am just as entitled to play on a regular server as you are, in my chosen perspective, without people having an advantage over me. 

 

The argument about servers is valid at the moment. However hardcore winds up going, it is the fix you have. One of the later posters has added that hardcore will be expanded into a different featureset to normal, likely including the modified server view you guys are looking for. I have to restate this question in light of that information: How does our server ruleset, in the long run, affect your playstyle?

Edit: I realise server availability is a valid issue, having said this. That being said, by beta/open release I would expect a lot more servers of all sorts to be opening up. Availability is an issue at the moment, but it will not necessarily be one in the long run. There's bound to be other Australian players who want the same style of play that you do, and where there's a market, there will be people to exploit it.

 

 

 

The true argument, completely aside from the availability of hardcore servers, is why should 3pp players get a clear cut advantage over 1pp players. Hardcore will eventually have a lot of difference between it and regular. Plenty of people don't want to play on hardcore, but still want to use 1pp and that gap will increase as changes get made to hardcore. Why should those players be penalised solely for their choice of perspective?

 

I could easily counter with: Why should we sacrifice the field of view advantage simply because a small core of gamers dislikes it? I enjoy the advantage third person view provides - no, not because it gives me an advantage in PvP, I'm still fucking terrible even with third person view enabled - yet I acknowledge that first person view is a more challenging way to play. Each has their strengths; one for immersion, one for PvP. I don't see either as being better than the other, or exploitative to the point that it should be nerfed or removed. There is no problem. Third person view provides an advantage. Nobody is arguing that. My view on things is that it's a feature enjoyed by a significant number - I would go so far as to say majority - of players, who are indifferent to the fact that it provides an advantage. It makes the game more enjoyable for those who feel restricted by first person view, just as those who play first person do so for a more authentic experience.

I think we can both agree that ultimately, if we're honest, the real argument between people on this issue is one of preference and opinion. I and those like me like the game the way it is; you and those like you do not. Whatever other reasons we bring to bear, it is a matter of how we want to play the game.

 

 

 

There is a clear way to have an even footing between 3pp and 1pp players, making the game fair for everyone regardless of what server they play on and not forcing players into a hardcore mode that they don't want to play.  

If you can't provide a compelling argument as to why 3pp players should be allowed to keep the massive advantage that their perspective gives them over 1pp players then those of us who get annoyed by this exploit will continue to talk about it. Saying, "Play on hardcore" just doesn't cut it. The problem isn't about Hardcore Vs Regular.

It seems to me that those of you who argue for 3pp can't answer the above and simply want to keep your advantage at the expense of anyone who plays in 1pp - this is what the arguments from most people who support 3pp boil down to. 

 

The 'problem' is exactly that; hardcore, in any game, should be more realistic, gritty, and/or challenging. And third person view can easily be seen as part of a 'looser' ruleset designed for more casual or easygoing players who want the experience without the added difficulty of hardcore mode. You've justified your viewpoint on why first person view is better; you've proven that first person view is more realistic and challenging than third person view. All of you. I'm not arguing that, and I think you'll find a lot of the people who are arguing its superiority are doing so because your calls for change threaten to remove an element of the game they enjoy.

So yes, this boils down to hardcore versus regular. You want a more authentic experience where nobody is capable of making use of the advantage provided by third person view. That, in my opinion, is a feature that should be hardcore. Nerfing third person view or locking us into first person is not the answer.

Hell, even just having it as a variable at server creation would be fine. Let server popularity give you the results you're looking for, rather than polls or the like. If first-person-only servers have less players, it just means the majority will die off and you'll have a more condensed community playing on the ones that stay up, who have more of a vested interest in keeping those servers going. 

 

Hardcore is not first person mode, it is apparently going to have further features added and perhaps may even one day not be forced first person only mode any more: That's something that is simply configurable on the server level. Taking the relatively small amount of time out to develop line of sight features would dramatically improve the quality of the experience in both game modes. Honestly, you feel it's acceptable or intuitive to be sitting in third person mode looking out over the whole airfield when you're on a roof? You think it creates a balanced arena in which we can be cruel and unfair to each other?

 

Didn't think so.

Out of curiosity, could you provide a link to the discussion where the planned hardcore features are mentioned? I'm interested in seeing what else they have planned.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Wolfguarde

[mithrawndo 166]

A quick search will link you back to this very forum and a post made by rocket talking about potential server management features.

 

I've just read your entire essay above and I have to ask... what was your point again? From what I can see you're simply arguing about people arguing for the sake of arguing... for the sake of arguing! That smells like troll to me.

[Martmital 436]

Yes OP, I would like to see my 3PP magic eye disabled.  Something along the lines of the 2017 mod would be fine.

 

As for the rest of you, you need to get a grip.  The game as never been a first person shooter, the engine the game is based off is not a first person shooter.  The DayZ team have been kind enough to allow servers a choice of view. Hardcore servers are not hardcore game mode at the moment.  Using one view over another does not make you any better, they both have different skill sets.

 

If we are to lose one or the another than we should get rid of 1PP seeing as the minority of the players prefer to use it.

[Wolfguarde 108]

I've just read your entire essay above and I have to ask... what was your point again? From what I can see you're simply arguing about people arguing for the sake of arguing... for the sake of arguing! That smells like troll to me.

You're entitled to write off my post as a troll, so long as you don't mind me doing the same to yours.

[icehollowpoint 1]

Or you could just play hardcore...?

 

What the hell would even be the point of still having TP if everything is invisible?

 

things you do not have line of sight to. Not invisible.

 

This is to prevent the widely abused mechanic of people looking around corners and above cover without having to expose themselves.

 

If people were really interested in gameplay, they would support this. TP as it stands encourages camping. All you have to do is wait completely safely behind cover with a perfect situational awareness and wait for the other guy to expose himself. Guys getting pinned down in the ATC just go prone and use the camera to find an enemy they would not have otherwise been able to see.

 

People getting followed can just pan the camera around behind them to check, without physically having to check their rear.

 

One of the frequent arguments by the pro-TP crowd is the FOV vs FP. While I think its a bullshit argument, lets accept it for the moment and assume it does represent a more realistic FOV. Fine, with this method, you still have the preferable FOV. But without the cheating ability to have perfect situational awareness when you really shouldnt.

 

Please don't act like this isnt a widely abused mechanic either, dayz videos on youtube are full of people running up to corners or buildings and using the camera to see whats inside without actually exposing themselves to any danger.

[HazZarD87 166]

There's first person only servers. Now dry your tears.

[mithrawndo 166]

There will always be first person only, though they won't all be hardcore. No arguments there. What about if you want to play in third person though, but don't want to deal with bullshit exploitation of absurdly stupid game mechanics?

 

By all means keep your silly mechanics, but let us have a third way: A best of both worlds. All the tools exist to do it already, so why not?

[Nicko2580 398]

I've just read your entire essay above and I have to ask... what was your point again? From what I can see you're simply arguing about people arguing for the sake of arguing... for the sake of arguing! 

I've got to say Wolfguarde that I have to agree with what I've quoted here. Not the troll part, but certainly your points seem to all imply that we're just arguing for the sake of arguing. 

You really didn't address the substance of anything I wrote and you didn't address the scenarios I gave you at the bottom you just wrote them off as not being a problem. Well, I think for me to take that point of view seriously, you have to justify why they're not a problem. 

Once again, the only arguments I can find in this thread essentially boil down to - "We like our advantage so go away thank you very much." and I don't think that's a justifiable excuse for keeping it. Remember I am not arguing for 3rd person to be removed from the game. I have no issue if people want to play in that perspective. Sometimes I even like to switch to it when I am running, just to watch my guy run.

What I am arguing for is removing the absurd, unauthentic advantage that we all agree is there, to make the game fair for everyone. As Mithrawndo said, the tools are all there to get it done. 

Otherwise, I feel, they need to lock servers at one perspective and change the names from 'regular' and 'hardcore' to 'third person' and 'first person'. Any time the perspectives mix under the current rules, 1st person is at a severe disadvantage.

Hardcore is irrelevant (and also no, I don't have the details on the dev announcements there. If I find them I'll PM them to you. There was a topic in Gen Discussion IIRC). Hardcore and regular are going to be separate things. I should be able to play on regular, like everyone else, and have a fair game against you and not be punished for my choice of perspective. It's that simple.

 

If people were really interested in gameplay, they would support this. 

 

Edited March 2, 2014 by Nicko2580

[Canned Muffins 82]

Firstly, the challenge in PvP is only present for anyone limiting themselves to 1pp. They are at an automatic disadvantage. The tactics are exploits - you are gaining information that your avatar could not possibly know. 

'Classic 3pv gameplay tactics' - well, this is not a classic game. The point of this game is not PvP. PvP is an option, but it's not the core of what DayZ is supposed to be about. It's not a deathmatch game. It's not TF2 or Battlefront. 

Yes you're correct that you cannot damage someone while in cover, but that's not the point at all. The point is that you can see me from behind solid cover, whereas I cannot see you at all. I have no idea you're there, because you're not in my LoS. 

 

Fallacious argument. Just because other games have it, doesn't mean DayZ has to have it. DayZ is also not a game about being competitive in the same respect as the games you've listed. There's no leaderboards, no high scores, no tournaments.

 

No one is arguing to remove 3pp totally (at least I'm not). I'm arguing that you should not have an advantage over me simply because you choose to play in a different perspective than I do. It has nothing to do with 'majorities' either. A million people can believe the earth is flat, but it still doesn't magically make it correct. 

You have an advantage by being able to effectively see through any wall or obstacle. It's as simple as that. 

 

Again, I am not asking for 3pp to be removed. I'm asking for the ability for players to see through walls and obstacles to spot other players, zombies or loot in 3pp to be removed. Doing so will mean a level and fair playing field regardless of the perspective any player chooses to play in. 

Once again I get the feeling that the only argument being put forward here is, "I want to be able to see people hiding behind cover because I'm lazy and don't want to expose myself to fire like everyone else has to." - this is not good enough.

 

Every scenario is not even, regardless of perspective:

  

 

How is the spoilered scenario in any way even? You can see me coming while I have absolutely no idea that you are there! I could be the best scout in the game and you still have a huge advantage over me. You can simply wait for me to turn away from you, pop up and shoot me without ever exposing yourself to risk from me. That is not skill or patience or positioning, it's a legal and lethal wallhack. 

Once again, I am not arguing that you shouldn't be able to have 3pp. But it needs to be fixed so that in the above scenario you cannot see me either. I am effectively invisible to you unless you stand up and look over the wall with your characters eyes. 

Here's another one:

 

In this situation you can potentially see me coming from miles away without ever exposing yourself, giving you a huge advantage. You now have a very long time to set up an ambush for me, and I still have no idea you're there even if I am the most observant player in the game. 

If you cannot see the issues with this, then I have to assume you're part of the crowd that just wants cheap and easy kills in a game that is NOT supposed to be about that type of thing.

The challenge of PVP is more prevalent in regular servers due to both population sizes and yes tactics of 3rd person.This ability is no exploit it is built into the system and it has evolved all sorts of strategy to both combat and optimize its use. You gain information off of the few ways you can in this game and that includes vision,hearing,and spacial awareness which would be a bigger factor if we could smell,feel,use mirrors,peak over ledges,use cameras,or what have you but these things just don't fully exist in this game. Gameplay and mechanics make up for what should be present or available in a real life scenario. Even as a game DayZ and Arma games are simulations to an extent. 

This game is classic in its anti game style its classic in the features incorporated to suit gameplay better. It is not doing anything that has not been done in another game all it is doing is applying old gaming mechanics with a new concept a new world. The wheel has not bee reinvented it simply has bee given new treads and put on a different car. DayZ is a survival game at its core but PVE is not the core threat to players what is the core threat is other players. The end game is other players and interacting with them. DayZ is a PVP environment the moment you spawn in on the beach with even a single player in the server. The only PVE pure moments in DayZ is when you are on a server alone with no competition for any resources or threat of other players. A single player as potential competition is what makes it a PVP game. 

The point of bringing up past games is to highlight that in terms of history of 3rd person shooters or games in general is that this ability and camera view point has existed in them. It has then carried over into modern games and it will continue to move along in future games because its how the genre and community wants it. If the community and industry saw it as a real issue it would have been gone years ago but it exists because it is wanted because it works in the video game world. 

We see things all the time that are not directly in our line of sight or we know they are present by our many senses and the environment we have surrounding us. We have horrible lighting and shadows in the game so that wont aid us at all even on ultra settings it has never aided me. There are no dynamic reflections or mirrors to use or even wet metallic surfaces to aid us. Sound of walking on debris or different surfaces is horrible  currently and half the time sound doesn't register to begin with we are stuck with buggy ambient noises and delayed sounds. So games make up for this with other features and mechanics like view perspectives,statuses,information bars,different menus for player stats,environments, or equipment. DayZ we get told many things we can't feel ,we are told things we can not check manually,and we are through into environments where several primary senses are erased. We replace these senses with in game ones.

You say DayZ is not competitive? Interesting that there are server leader boards ,highscores,and yes competitions like tournaments.In fact thats how most of the mod went and when private highs come there will be stat tracking which lead to these things. Who kills the most zombies,who killed the most players.who lasted the longest,who has the more rare gear, whats the longest kill shot do you have,how big is your camp,how many vehicles do you have,how risky can you be without dying,who rescued or killed the most bamis,ect....These sorts of competition exist in any gaming community and we do track these things and measure them. Clans and groups in this community compete on all sorts of levels.

 

Both perspectives will continue to exist and advantage is gained through playstyle. Preference can hinder your abilities if you choose to limit yourself and not utilize your resources. If you wish to go into a firefight with a self imposed handicap you are able to do that but expecting others to abide by this is impossible. When we end up talking about preferences majorities matter. We are not arguing an objective truth but rather a subjective opinion. Popular opinion sways society and majorities are what make changes happen or prevent them from happening. 

IF you can create a game that replicates smell/taste accurate life like sounds,accurate life like lighting,and spacial awareness then we wouldn't need 3rd person. But as of late we can't do basics correctly so the simple best solution is to keep certain mechanics in the game that function for gameplay sake. We wont ever even see an Arma 3 style peaking system in the SA and honestly that can still be improved on to simulate movement better and spacial awareness. The Oculus Rift is tackling head and eye movements and one day we may have the rest of the body simulated in game better. Until then we are going to have features and mechanics  that reward information. If a player truly feels they must not have this ability they have the prerogative to not use it and play on the servers that restrict it. Myself see no need in fixing  something thats not even broken. I will play both modes regardless and wont ask that DayZ neuter regular mode in the name of bullshit balance. Balance crusades are what ruin games the only balance we have in DayZ is that we all spawn on the coast with basically nothing and from then on out what ever we do determines if we live or die. Where you move to and how you move there may kill you. You may think your cover that you are in is a sure thing,you may also think that just because you know where an enemy is that you can dispatch them or correctly handle the situation. However thats not the reality of the game. No scenario is even no matter how much one may try to balance things. 

 

Edited March 3, 2014 by Canned Muffins

[cj14 189]

Hello,

 

I made a topic about this a while ago, but decided to remake one for all of the newcomers who have joined since the release of the SA.

 

Third person is usually used to exploit the game by using free look to peek around corners and walls. 

 

FIX: Make anything that you can interact with, invisible. Loot, zombies, players etc are invisible unless your character has it in his/her FoV. That way, the only way you will be able to see other players / loot / zombies is to be facing them directly.

 

Discuss.

 

There's never going to be a FOV realist enough in any game...considering we use one screen (most of regular people). So until technology is 100% perfect and allow us for a 100% accurrate FOV, when I play on 3rdPP I will use that exploit when needed

 

 

PS: I usually play on FP anyway

[minime1000 78]

The game is a 3rd person shooter so it doesn't need a "fix". This is how 3rd person games work

[Nicko2580 398]

Let's be very clear about what I am talking about before I respond here.

I am talking about the ability for your character - the one you are playing as and is representing your presence in Chernarus - to detect, visually, other players, items and zombies while they are out of your LoS, in 3rd person view (hereby referred to as magic vision). Not 3rd person view itself. 

DayZ is founded on authenticity. You have to make a reasonable case that magically seeing people through walls that your character can't see through is authentic.

 

The challenge of PVP is more prevalent in regular servers due to both population sizes and yes tactics of 3rd person.This ability is no exploit it is built into the system and it has evolved all sorts of strategy to both combat and optimize its use. You gain information off of the few ways you can in this game and that includes vision,hearing,and spacial awareness which would be a bigger factor if we could smell,feel,use mirrors,peak over ledges,use cameras,or what have you but these things just don't fully exist in this game. Gameplay and mechanics make up for what should be present or available in a real life scenario. Even as a game DayZ and Arma games are simulations to an extent. 

This game is classic in its anti game style its classic in the features incorporated to suit gameplay better. It is not doing anything that has not been done in another game all it is doing is applying old gaming mechanics with a new concept a new world. 

 

Egg-fuckin'-zacktly. It's not doing anything that has not been done before (in the perspectives regard). It should be. See authenticity.

I know what 3rd person is and it's history. I've been a gamer all my life and your condescension hasn't helped your argument. DayZ isn't supposed to be another classic game and it is supposed to reinvent the wheel in terms of survival gameplay. That is what DayZ SA has been marketed as from the beginning. The argument that 3rd person is some great view because it has all this history and tactics behind it does not apply here - It's a valid argument, but it doesn't apply to DayZ.

 

DayZ is a survival game at its core but PVE is not the core threat to players what is the core threat is other players. The end game is other players and interacting with them. DayZ is a PVP environment the moment you spawn in on the beach with even a single player in the server. The only PVE pure moments in DayZ is when you are on a server alone with no competition for any resources or threat of other players. A single player as potential competition is what makes it a PVP game. 

For now. It is Alpha. The game is 20% complete. Look at the vision for the completed version and tell me where the magic vision currently fits. It doesn't, because it's not a PvP or PvE game. It is a survival game that incorporates both elements. Another of those elements is authenticity. That doesn't include magic vision, no matter how much lazy people want it to. 

It's not lazy in another game, like Battlefront, Gears of War, Assassins Creed or anything else. None of those games even attempt authenticity. It is lazy and inauthentic in this game, fullstop.

Keep third person. Remove the magic element. I understand some people need third person, they get sick playing in first and I understand people want to be able to see their own character and all that jazz. I don't mind striking heroic poses myself on the odd occasion. You can have all that, but you shouldn't have the magic vision.
 

The point of bringing up past games is to highlight that in terms of history of 3rd person shooters or games in general is that this ability and camera view point has existed in them. It has then carried over into modern games and it will continue to move along in future games because its how the genre and community wants it. If the community and industry saw it as a real issue it would have been gone years ago but it exists because it is wanted because it works in the video game world. 

We see things all the time that are not directly in our line of sight or we know they are present by our many senses and the environment we have surrounding us. We have horrible lighting and shadows in the game so that wont aid us at all even on ultra settings it has never aided me. There are no dynamic reflections or mirrors to use or even wet metallic surfaces to aid us. Sound of walking on debris or different surfaces is horrible  currently and half the time sound doesn't register to begin with we are stuck with buggy ambient noises and delayed sounds. So games make up for this with other features and mechanics like view perspectives,statuses,information bars,different menus for player stats,environments, or equipment. DayZ we get told many things we can't feel ,we are told things we can not check manually,and we are through into environments where several primary senses are erased. We replace these senses with in game ones.

:Alpha. And thanks for more condescension. All these things you've listed apply right now. Not in a few years. Your argument only applies if DayZ is to stay the way it is forever. 

Besides that, I can do pretty much all you've described at present in 1st person, even against people playing in 3rd person, so the magic vision in 3rd person is not needed. It's still just a magic cop out for people who don't want to invest in learning the basics of a supposedly 'authentic' game. Those basics should include fundamental human biology, like not being able to fucking see through walls, regardless of your perspective. 

I really do find it hard to believe how people cannot see that. The mentality is that you're not this character (comes from current gaming culture, especially anyone that doesn't play games with permadeath), but the reality of this game is that you are supposed to be this character. What his senses pick up is the information you're supposed to  be given. That is so fucking fundamental.

You're not supposed to be able to transfer your epic shooter skillz to DayZ. Okay, say you're awesome at Battlefront. That's a 3rd person game. You think it's okay to transfer the skills needed to play a game like Battlefront, to a game like DayZ? If so I'd say go play something else. DayZ needs to invent its own skill set based on authentic game play and that does not include magic vision.

 

IF you can create a game that replicates smell/taste accurate life like sounds,accurate life like lighting,and spacial awareness then we wouldn't need 3rd person. But as of late we can't do basics correctly so the simple best solution is to keep certain mechanics in the game that function for gameplay sake. We wont ever even see an Arma 3 style peaking system in the SA and honestly that can still be improved on to simulate movement better and spacial awareness. The Oculus Rift is tackling head and eye movements and one day we may have the rest of the body simulated in game better. Until then we are going to have features and mechanics  that reward information. If a player truly feels they must not have this ability they have the prerogative to not use it and play on the servers that restrict it. Myself see no need in fixing  something thats not even broken. I will play both modes regardless and wont ask that DayZ neuter regular mode in the name of bullshit balance. Balance crusades are what ruin games the only balance we have in DayZ is that we all spawn on the coast with basically nothing and from then on out what ever we do determines if we live or die. Where you move to and how you move there may kill you. You may think your cover that you are in is a sure thing,you may also think that just because you know where an enemy is that you can dispatch them or correctly handle the situation. However thats not the reality of the game. No scenario is even no matter how much one may try to balance things. 

 

Not true. As I stated, I and many, many other people do fine in DayZ without the magic vision. You're argument that we need to have perfect replication of senses to get rid of the magic part of 3rd person is simply false. 

Nope. Again, only the people using 3rd person on regular servers have balance only against each other. Anyone that uses first person is instantly at a disadvantage. Those first person players shouldn't be forced to go to hardcore just because people can't handle not being able to see through walls! In a game that's touts authenticity. Hardcore will eventually be more than just locked to first person. 

This is so fundamental to authenticity in this game, that without removing the magic part of 3rd person, I don't think they have any right to put authentic anywhere near it.

I'm going to quote dilzskin again because I think it's the most relevant thing that's been said so far in this thread.

 

If people were really interested in gameplay, they would support this. 

Edited March 3, 2014 by Nicko2580