How much authenticity is too much?

[-Gews- 7443]

You're actually NOT supposed to go digging in there just to remove the bullet, so I don't like that idea. I know someone who's been living with a bullet in them for ages and it's fine.

 

And besides - the bullet may very likely not even stay in the body, removing a bullet every time you got shot would be crazy.

 

 

 

 

 

"Retained bullets rare cause complications and surgical attempts to find and remove these bullets usually cause more harm than good, if they are even successful."

 

"However, first aid treatment does not include the removal of deeply embedded objects, powdered glass, or any widely scattered material of this nature. You should never attempt to remove bullets"

[Daemonkid 493]

You're actually NOT supposed to go digging in there just to remove the bullet, so I don't like that idea. I know someone who's been living with a bullet in them for ages and it's fine.

 

And besides - the bullet may very likely not even stay in the body, removing a bullet every time you got shot would be crazy.

 

 

 

 

 

"Retained bullets rare cause complications and surgical attempts to find and remove these bullets usually cause more harm than good, if they are even successful."

 

"However, first aid treatment does not include the removal of deeply embedded objects, powdered glass, or any widely scattered material of this nature. You should never attempt to remove bullets"

A solid bullet that hasn't fragmented, sure.

But if a bullet fragments inside you, you're going to need to remove that shrapnel.

[mgc 92]

I love the idea of going to the coast in a library and strawl through the spray untill someone manages a headshot or hit a limb often enough.

 

I would prefer to have advanced warning in case of impairments that become progressively worse (like hypothermia). I do want to experience all the phases so i know how far i can push the character without dropping dead for no apparent reason. At no point should a character be beyond hope until his last breath. I dont think a forrest floor littered with dying bambis begging for a mercy kill is the way to go.

 

I think players that dont want to deal with the more hardcore survival stuff can find servers where the sun is always shining and summer never ends. It shouldnt be a reason not to put it in. In fact, i think marketshare would decrease if u didnt make surviving nature almost as important as surviving the zombies. Furthermore, i believe cooperation should be more essential to surviving these 2 elements. This will help to build a more friendly pvp setting with a marginally clearer picture of right / wrong, good / bad.

 

Speaking of time compression; it might be interesting to make the day / night cycle as long as the average hours / day of playing dayz. Lets say the average person plays dayz for 2 hours a day. If we make the cycle last 2 hours, they will get to experience 1 dayz day per irl day.

[McGarnagle 94]

A solid bullet that hasn't fragmented, sure.

But if a bullet fragments inside you, you're going to need to remove that shrapnel.

 

It's been awhile since I've been able to talk to any Army medics, but I'm pretty sure that with no hope of a real doctor or hospital, if a bullet fragments inside your body you're basically screwed. There'd be so much blood loss and tissue damage, not to mention bone fragments, a blood bag wouldn't be enough to keep you going during the "procedure."

 

And this would be with, maybe, morphine and painpills.More than likely, you'd have nothing but shock to dull the pain.

 

I don't want to say "impossible," since people have survived falling out of an airplane with no parachute, but...

[Deathlove 2286]

I can handle the sick, cold, hunger, etc stuff.

 

But when they start making pissing and shitting becoming mandatory than i think enough is enough. I really feel that there are other things that can be done to make it authentic without putting this in the game to be honest.

 

Bullet removal sounds like a fine edition to me to be honest.

[LaughingJack (DayZ) 767]

@Corto: Well I think a "suicide" option should be made possible (if you have a gun...or at least a knife), if players want to avoid to cure such things/stick it out, but in my opinion the game would only become better with such a level of realism (Weather/temperature+clothes+no campfire etc. affect health by sickness)

And yeah you are right:, my example with "getting a cold" was not correct, and you are right, in your example these symptoms should be ignored..but if your character starts to sneeze he can be in danger when a Zombie hears it...or another survivor...And how about more serious sickness' like the flu (not the common cold)? High fever, tired, body's aching etc.? May lead to pneumonia and that shit is dangerous...

 

@Monkfish: I think that's a pretty good raw pattern. I like that idea...beans for you, good Sir ;)

 

@Valadain: Totally with you on that one.

 

@Gews: While you are right (damn, I say this far too often to you...you'll get megalomania if I don't watch out ;)), I think there's the line between realism and authenticity / too much of something: You normally don't get shot that often. And if, chances are big that you'll not survive. If you get shot, you don't just put a dirty patch on it and you're fine because you ate 3 cans of beans.

That's the gameside. And the authenticity side is contrary to this. It has to stay at a level that makes fun, as Monkfish pointed out: You should not spend 6 ingame weeks with a broken leg, even if it would be realistic...

As far as bullets go: If its not a lodged one, badging (or maybe even stitching?) should do it for the game. If lodged, you maybe should remove it (maybe a calculation where it is lodged and if that's a place where it causes pain/handicaps movement/is dangerous?)...or have somebody remove it for you...knife, sewing kit, alcohol, tweezers...whatever. But sharpnels of a bullet, even if realistic: too much in my opinion...

 

@mgc: Well...put all that stuff on hardcore servers and leave the reguklars as they are ;)

 

@Deathlove: Yeah, that would be too much...^^

[Valadain 270]

I like the suicide option. You are pinned down by bandits who are clearly going to kill you. Play it out. Chuck your backpack on the ground and smash it with an axe till ruined. Same with your primary and all but one bullet in your secondary. Then write that final chapter of your current survivor's life and punctuate it with a pop.

 

The zombies screams are rushing towards you. You are lying on the ground with broken legs. Are you really going to just crawl your heart out as they smack you and eat you alive? No.

[combatcomm1 234]

I really, really, really hope it's not working as intended in its current form. I was shot six times by an SKS-toting marksman tonight, and I didn't die. I didn't even bleed. My shirt, vest, pants and everything contained therein were systematically obliterated, but... but... I didn't even bleed! I should've been dead. Period.

 

Uhh... let me introduce you to "50 cent".

[-MadTommy 367]

 

 

How much authenticity is too much?

 

Having to sleep... everything else is fair game to me.  The more realistic the better.

 

Uhh... let me introduce you to "50 cent".

 

But 50 cent didn't slap on an old rag and walk away.. I'm gonna assume without hospital treatment he would be dead.

[gibonez 3633]

The more authenticity the better.

 

The golden rule however is it needs to feel consistent everything must feel authentic from the wounding, to the gun play to the movement and stamina.

[Deathlove 2286]

If you want true authenticity to the game add age variety. Children, old ppl, the works to the zombie list. As gruesome as it sounds no one would be spared from a virus like this.

 

Not many are willing to tread the line into child zombie territory ether except for No More Room In Hell atm.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Deathlove

[LaughingJack (DayZ) 767]

Dathlove: Yeah and I hope that this will be implemented.

And I liked the statement the No More Room In Hell creators made regarding zombie children...i'll paste it here:

 

To officially address the topic of children zombies:

We will not be removing them. They are a core component of our game design, our design philosophy, and our long-term vision for NMRiH. Part of our goal was to create a zombie game not based on killing and action, but on tension and fear and moral and ethical choice. We are attempting to simulate a real-world collapse of society as a result of a lethal epidemic. If you cannot handle it, do not play the game. We are sorry that some people seem to be offended for one reason or another but we are NOT going to censor our game and our vision.

Reading some posts by players off-put by the zombie children, being unable to shoot them on first encounter.. that is something that we set out to achieve. That reaction is actually intentional, that is what we wanted. This is a game about survival.

Our game is free, and we developed it solely out of passion and fun to make the zombie game we always wanted. If you do not like it, we are sorry and it's unfortunate but this is a no-compromise situation.

 

and I think this words could be used 1:1 by the DayZ devs....

[LeChat 131]

If you want true authenticity to the game add age variety. Children, old ppl, the works to the zombie list. As gruesome as it sounds no one would be spared from a virus like this.

 

Not many are willing to tread the line into child zombie territory ether except for No More Room In Hell atm.

 

Well FO2, go up to a child - put your .44 (or your weapon of choice) to his/her head and pull the trigger. That to me is a little bit 'worse' than killing a zombiefied kid that would try and have me for lunch.

I wouldn't cry if they didn't add it, to me it would be pretty low on priority list as of right now - but if they have the time and resources, I think they should do it.

[Valadain 270]

The more authenticity the better.

 

The golden rule however is it needs to feel consistent everything must feel authentic from the wounding, to the gun play to the movement and stamina.

 

I generally agree. That's actually what has me a little leery of the talk of reducing guns in favor of improvised and melee weapons. Melee combat in an FPS will never feel authentic. At least to me. Maybe I'm the odd man out.

[gibonez 3633]

I generally agree. That's actually what has me a little leery of the talk of reducing guns in favor of improvised and melee weapons. Melee combat in an FPS will never feel authentic. At least to me. Maybe I'm the odd man out.

 

Have you ever played chivalry, dead island, red orchestra and countless other fps games.

 

They have awesome melee that do a good job at letting you judge distance.

 

Dayz is the only fps that I know what horrific melee.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

Mounted bayonets have more range than just a knife, they also have a lot more mass and momentum behind them when stabbing.

[LaughingJack (DayZ) 767]

@Lady Kyrah: Yeah, that was the point of the thread...

 

 

I feel you, Valadain -.-

 

I bought Chivalry MW some months ago because I heard it had the best melee combat system...yeah, that might eb (I don't wanna start a fight about that here), but to me (maybe only to me) it still felt far away from something I'd call plausible, authentic or just...hm...well I couldn't "feel" it.

And I know a lot of FPS (especially online fps) with horrific melee...but that doesn't mean that DayZ should also go there ;)

Sure, a system like Chivalry has is too much (because the whole game was built around that) compared to DayZ, but...well look back at monkfishs post, the things he mentioned plus a better collision detection (+distance, +way weapons are handled (different ways to swing, stab, cut etc.)) would be nice...

 

 

But I want to go back to 2 of the - in my opinion - most fitting posts:

 

Personally I feel that if they're going to add something as bullets stuck in wounds they need to add mechanics for those type of wounds or rather mechanics to treat those types of wounds.

But yes, taking it further towards realism would be good - although with that said I think they need to distribute the realism to all parts. A highly realistic weapons system and a mediocre healing system is just bad.

Effects from injuries should really linger on for a long time imo. The systems need  to evolve and progress hand in hand. Same goes for all other parts as well. You can't just make portion X of the game realistic and ignore the rest. If they're going to make realistic combat, building and crafting must be realistic as well - while it is easier to make combat more realistic because combat and damage has a number of variables and just adding a few of those makes the game more realistic than other FPS in comparison to for instance building. But I'd like to see the fact that you need foundation to build a sturdy building, or dig holes for your posts if you're building a fence and such. As long as they can pull it off, go hog wild - but maintain realism across all spectrums in a balanced fashion.

...to which I totally agree.

 

And, as mentioned above:

DayZ has real potential to be a tough and unforgiving game, for lack of a better word, rather than just another Zombie-basher to add to the fucking ridiculous pile of zombie-bashers already out there. It'll do this by not pandering to the majority of the game market ("Derp. Run here. Blam blam. Pick up medkit and ammo. Run there. Blam Blam. Derp.") and by actually being challenging, but rewarding, to play. After all, if <insert apocalypse of choice> happens, simple issues would become pretty big ones if they're not looked after properly, and big issues could well spell your end.

Now, obviously, a certain creative licence has to be used for the sake of gameplay (i.e. breaking your leg should not put you out for six weeks), but there should still be a fairly hefty level of ballachery involved with serious injuries in order to make the game a proper challenge and force you to think about things whilst maintaining some level of authenticity. To go back to the broken leg, as I said, it shouldn't put you out for 6 weeks, but it also shouldn't be fixed 100% by shooting yourself up with some Morphine or tying two sticks to it. Breaking a leg should be a major thing that could eventually spell your demise (if you don't take the quick way out), simply because breaking your leg in an actual apocalypse would probably result in the same thing unless you had someone to help you. Therefore, a broken leg should be fixed by splinting (with Morphine used as a painkiller to you don't scream in agony when walking) which would result in it being slow to walk on and require a game day or so of time to heal. This would be somewhat representative of real life (heavily compressed timescales for gameplay purposes, ofc) whilst still posing a major problem for the player to overcome (authenticity). 

 

Would I want to break a leg with this system? Hell no, but if it happens and I survive it, what a fucking triumph that would be. Not wanting to break a leg in this system doesn't mean it shouldn't be in place though. This is what, for me, DayZ is all about. Insurmountable odds that you conquer and can tell tales about, not some pansy-ass shit that's somewhere in the myriad of other pansy-ass shit out there.

 

So, to business;

Rocket has already confirmed that they can detect what part of the body has been struck by a given object, so they could make quite the realistic damage model. Something like;

 

Gunshot wound - single

Head - fatal

Chest - Likely fatal

Abdomen - Fatal if left unattended

Limbs - Non-fatal.

 

Stab wound - single

Head - Non-fatal (but heavy bleeding - would be fatal if left unattended)

Chest - Likely fatal

Abdomen - Fatal if left unattended

Limbs - Fatal if left unattended for a long period

 

Heavy blunt force trauma (wrench etc) - single

Head - Unconsciousness + heavy bleeding

Chest/Abdomen - Non-fatal. Chance of stagger/downing.

Limbs - Non-fatal - chance of broken bones

 

Light blunt force trauma (inc. punching) - single

Head - Non-fatal. Chance of unconsciousness.

Chest/Abdomen - Non-fatal. Chance of stagger.

Limbs - Non-fatal

 

The exact amount of damage dealt would depend on what weapon was used and its condition in combination of what the person you're hitting is wearing along with the condition of those items. For example, someone wearing a pristine bullet proof vest being stabbed by a ruined or badly damaged knife would not likely do much damage, whereas a pristine knife against someone wearing soft clothes would have a high probability of doing damage.

 

The above would be both authentic and immersive, as well as making people really think about what they're carrying and the condition of it. It'll also change people's behaviour as being stabbed three times in the abdomen would likely be fatal.

 

I sincerely hope Rocket implements something along these lines.

 

 

...so, what do you think? Could monkfishs system work? Or should it be changed?

 

And what about LeChats suggestions? Something like "Authentic" crafting sounds awesome to me, but how do youn handle it?

1) Find a shovel

2) Dig like a maniac in the ground until its smooth and deep enough for a fundament

3) find concrete, a water supply (or carry 50 canteens there...), the earth you digged out, something to mix it in and stir it up (use your mosin for better results ;))

4) put concrete in hole

5) Put the the corner posts... in it before it drys out (and add old parts of iron fences to make ferroconcrete ;))

....and you have a foundation. with posts. And now you could start building something really simple on it...like a very simple house...

 

Or just gather trunks (carry them alone? nah...) and build a log cabin on the earth? ;)

Edited February 12, 2014 by LaughingJack

[rickenbacker 190]

First the 10/22 is complete immersion breaker for me as I have more chance of finding myself stuck 7" up Miley Cyrus than there would be of finding a 10/22 in Chernarus.

 

Lodged bullets sounds like it's all going to get a bit Far Cry 2 where your character can just dig bullets out with pliers that should have caused enormous damage and permanent injury.

 

How could you possibly know that? Chernarus isn't a real place, so for all we know it could have a dedicated target shooting community, which would mean lots and lots of .22's lying around everywhere. 

 

Lodged bullets could be made semi-realistic, though. Say you could remove them with tweezers (some bleeding), knives and scalpels (more bleeding) or pliers (lots and lots of bleeding). You'd then bandage up the injured limb, and once the would healed, the negative modifier from a bullet lodged in it would go away. 

[McGarnagle 94]

I wouldn't mind if, at some point in the future, they totally reworked melee and gunshot damage, and really like the idea of hit-location being a lot more important, but some of the stuff suggested isn't any more authentic than what we have now.

 

Gunshot wounds to the limbs completely non-fatal? The femoral artery would beg to differ. Stabbing wound to the head, non-fatal??? Yeah, sometimes you read in the news about the guy that got an x-ray and found out he had a nail in his head, but that's not the NORM for extreme brain trauma. Aside from all of that, some stabbing wounds are only fatal WHEN you try and treat them by removing the object. Let's see them put that game-mechanic in. Die of infection, or good-intentions? I really think that would be cool, actually.

 

I like where it's going, but someone that's at least taken Anatomy and Physiology would be invaluable in putting together ideas for this, and for making something comprehensible and quickly explainable to a dev, say during a reddit Q & A. Maybe even a nurse on these boards, or a med student?

Edited February 12, 2014 by McGarnagle

[LaughingJack (DayZ) 767]

Well about the
 

Stab wound - single

Head - Non-fatal (but heavy bleeding - would be fatal if left unattended)

 

I was thinking NOT about knives stuck in your brain, when I read that (and I think monk did also not mean it that way)...I was thinking more like open cuts because the skull is a real hard thing. Sure there are points (like the eye...or directly in the mouth...or from the bottom up the lower jaw etc. where a stab is fatal, but e.g. a stab frontal against the forehead on a standing person (head goes back with the force, angle changes to the worse etc.)? I don't think it would crack it open until you are really (un)lucky...

 

Gunshots to the limbs fatal...you're right, but at this point i think it's ok to assume that they miss the arteries everytime - here's where i'd draw a line to autenticity...

[Mdogg2005 447]

Ah i live on a farm and i tried out a 308 on a bible ( i had a mosin shot at close range 5m max  the bullet was stopped by the bible in game). the results i got werent scientific by any means but what happened to the bible wouldnt have me brave enough to put one on my chest and get my wife to shoot it not even a 50 m shot lol....(have been shot wearing a vest before hurt like hell but it stopped it but then it was made to...)

 

308 comparable to mosin sorry i dont own an expensive 80 year old rifle...

 

lol mosins are a dime a dozen, they're literally 150$ - 200$

[Valadain 270]

Have you ever played chivalry, dead island, red orchestra and countless other fps games.

 

They have awesome melee that do a good job at letting you judge distance.

 

Dayz is the only fps that I know what horrific melee.

 

Dead Island was actually one of the games I had in mind when I suggested an FPS can't provide good melee. It is about as good as it gets, and it was terrible. You just can't relay all the information necessary for skilled melee in an FPS.

[LeChat 131]

Mounted bayonets have more range than just a knife, they also have a lot more mass and momentum behind them when stabbing.

 

They're also a lot harder or should I say clunkier to use than a knife that you have in your hand. Then again, mobility sucks in this game so

[MagneticToast 102]

I like some immersion, but I don't want it to get crazy in depth. it is a game. I don't want it to end up to the point where you have to tie your boots or press a button to blink every couple of seconds or your eyes dry out and your vision gets blurred.

[dallas 5195]

You don't aim for what's real, but what feels real and what feels reasonable: Authentic.

 

It's a balancing act, trial and error, it's hard to tell what feels right and what feels wrong, until you've tested it.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Dallas