Why DayZ is no survival game

[Shortbus (DayZ) 2]

My tone? My tone depends on how your read my text. I didn't intend to sound offensive. And "giving a f*ck", is just a way how I express something. Has nothing to do with you or the situation. It's how I use the english language, young woman.

 

What is the difference between loot, that restricts playstyle and simple skills, that do not restrict playstyle at all? And no, DayZ is no sandbox game. It always tried to be a survival game.

any game that has no endgame or its goals set by the player base is a sandbox.  thanks for proving my point.

 

argue as much as you want, hold your breath until your blue in the face. it won't change the facts.  

[Shortbus (DayZ) 2]

No real counter-arguments, other than just "No." and that this is a sandbox, it is also alpha, but this is a forum and we can discuss about what we would like this game to become ;) .

 

As it stands you can survive forever by choosing a low pop server, zombies are all dead once you have guns and some ammo, and that is that. Actually boring once you figure out the map. (an alternative here would be to make zombies seriously deadly, so actual survival vs NPC's would be a real challenge.

 

Next step is PvP (or DM), and this is where we are right now.

 

It is an interesting style of DM, due to the fact that you are not back to square one immediately like in a normal DM game. However in my view the game can be even more interesting, if there is more to lose by getting killed than is currently the case.

boring to you, you mean. and why should we put any effort into a counter argument,its not like you stated anything other that your own opinions?  nothing based on empirical evidence.  You are also not looking for a discussion, your looking for like minded individuals to justify your position.

 

 

 

 

you needed to be forced out side as a kid and been forced to play with just your imagination instead of being spoon feed content.

 

Don't blame the game for your own lack of imagination, and don't assume that you speak for the majority.  

[zaphodity (DayZ) 41]

Why Connect Four Is No Survival Game.

Edited February 7, 2014 by zaphodity

[elLoCo 154]

I would also like to throw my 2 cents in the  hat!

 

I read every page untli page ten and made a collage of quotes. So it is quite lengthy

 

tl;dr pro skill progression, why and how it could work?

 

I would like to point out that characterprogression could be the best happening to DayZ!

You might ask why and I'll explain it later.

I will comment every of the quotes, so you should get a pretty good impression on what I'm up to.

 

Quotes marked with Asterix (*) are sidethoughts, with (!) important to follow my thoughts, if you even care :lol:

 

 

The OP is right on this point; there is no difference between a fresh spawn and a veteran player other than the gear. There's nothing like skills or attributes that will make you feel compelled to survive to not lose something other than just gear. In other words there is no character development in a nut shell. I think I read somewhere that such elements will not be introduced though I could be wrong. 

(!)

This is absolutely true. Right from the beginning you are a Marine-Paramedic type of guy

 

 

We are suppose to have growing beard the longer you live in the future.

 

Also maybe there will be score boards with survived time.

(!)

Fuck stats! But I really like beards, but I would prefer to cut it.

 

 

Totally agree with you, the characters really need to be "cared".

 

When i started playing this game i'm kinda "Oww a gun, my god!!!" And when I die, "Nooo, i nerver gonna find a gun again"

 

But now, i'm just used to die and find usual things, and there's no sadness in death.

(!)

You really should be sad about wasting the life of your precious character

 

 

Eh, I agree with you that dayz isn't a survival game but your suggestions to make it one kind of fail (sorry but it's true.) If you survive 500 hours you shouldn't just magically get aimbot (ie shooting like a robot).. it should be based on the players skill. Also, there will be assholes like me that don't care about skills like repairing a heli and will go around ruining your skill progress because fuck you for hiding in the woods. :)

(!)

You should evolve through performing the action!

 

 

As many others have pointed out.  This is Alpha and maybe 10% complete.  The gun toting morons who play this game like CoD will most likely be the first ones to quit playing once the difficulty gets ramped up and weapons are harder to find while survival will become even harder.  Hopefully, to the point that you will cherish that bag of rice or can of beans.  Once the novelty of playing Call of DayZ wears off and these guys all die from hunger, because their backpacks are full of ammo herp derp, most of us will rejoice.

(!)

Interaction was the heart of the Mod otherwise it is just WarZ/Survivor-Stories baby bullshit!

Edited February 7, 2014 by elLoCo

[elLoCo 154]

I don't like skills because they introduce an objective into the game. People would focus on the payoff of gaining skill level, rather than focus on whats happening in the game.

 

It's like when you play a game like call of duty and some people want to use the crappiest weapons because they need to unlock something associated with using it.

 

An example in DayZ would be a medical skill. Groups of bandits would simply kidnap freshspawns and use them to level up their medical skill. It makes it no longer about kidnapping someone for a specific reason, or torturing them for psychological reasons, rather it would create a bunch of kidnappings that would simply be a means to leveling up your skill. The game would force these practices on the players, because players always find the most efficient means of leveling up skills.

 

There are very few skills I can imagine working in the setting of DayZ. There's just too much to consider.

(!)

Forget skill trees or skillpoints. Hidden skills!

In Dayz every action goes together with an item. You got hit, you bandage yourself, item depleted. Be wise and find some more of these!

But why shouldn't you be quicker, more precise after you have applied 100 bandages or similar?

 

 

I read a mechanics magazine and can now build a car..... :rolleyes:

(!) I will come to this with the books

 

 

Sigh. Loot isn't an objective. Survival is the objective, loot is a tool needed to accomplish that objective.

 

Okay, so you think adding in a timer would help? Let's say for every hour you live you can add another 5% to your skill? Well, then I would just sit in the bushes AFK with a bag of rice. See how the time restraint didn't fix anything? In fact, it creates even more modified behavior in that players will be sitting AFK waiting for a timer to tick down?

 

You can't just fix things by adding more things on top of them. No, I can't imagine a skill system I would ever like.

(!)

This is the wrong concept about character development. I'll come back to this

 

I've personally just imagined things such as increased stamina (increasing the amount of time you can run or sprint without you starting to sound like darth vader with asthma and reducing the time it takes to recover and get back to normal pulse again). Or steadier hands after gaining a certain amount of combat experience. Small things. Not, ten points in repair or five points in cooking. Not any actual visual stats or even a meter to show progress, just small subtle things.

 

But I'd be happy with cosmetic changes.

(!)

Evolving through doing. Again it costs you ressources food, water and time, but we all know this is Hiking simulator, isn't it? ^^

 

 

Not sure what you mean. The basic element of real life survival is the will not to die. It's not the will not to lose the gear. This is in my opinion the main problem with DayZ. It's all about the gear.

 

In real life you use gear to keep your life.

In DayZ you survive to keep your gear.

 

This results in very unauthentic behaviour. It results in boring endgame. It results in no point of simple survival. (you cannot enjoy running around town without a weapon and simply surviving, because there is no reward, no progress and no point, compare it to real life and there is a reward, progress and a point)

It results in players hunting for fun because gear is everything they can obtain. It makes the game simply worse. I want to people hunt other to survive. I want people to kill each other to survive. Not to keep their gear and not because of boredom.

 

If there is character value, meaning that you don't want your character to die over "you don't want to lose the gear", people will act way more authentic. But the most important part, after surviving 100 hours you won't simply go and shoot other people because you have end gear. You will still try to survive because you don't want to lose the progress. YOu cannot store all the effort you put in the character. Death will have a whole other meaing to the game. And this is, in my opinion, the core of DayZ: The fear of death.

(!)

He is right, too. Until I got all the nice gear I sometimes ask myself randomly to kill the char, because the thrill of getting a canopener gives me more kicks than keeping it. 

 

 

All the many posts about skill systems are still available to view. If you think that most of the people are for it then you are deluded.

You want to add character value because you believe it is the only way to simulate the only real life reward of staying alive. However you previously said that real life survival has 3 rewards "real life and there is a reward, progress and a point".

Your next paragraph is then you reading the minds of the community. Thats great you can do that.

 

So, If you have an idea for a skill system, what is it ?

(!)

Progress, is the magic word

 

 

Being kidnapped and used as a medical experiment would be incredibly boring for the person being kidnapped. You'd basically be stuck where ever you were taken and then be subjected to repeated transfusions and withdraws? No, I doubt anyone would opt for that and would simply start punching / sprinting for the hills.

 

After everything is said and done, this is still a game. It doesn't have to cater to the COD kiddies and such, but it still has to be fun. In real life when you are knocked unconcious you might go into a coma. If you had to sit in the "You are unconcious" state until either killed or brought back (and logging out kills you) how fun would it be if you had to wait for 3 months to remain in a coma because some asshole player kept force feeding you? It'd be hella realistic, but not fun in the least.

(*)

Being held up by bandits or similar psychos most of the time won't be fun. Hey i force fed him ............. rotten fruits, DADA!

 

I finally come to my conclusion.

 

Stats is one thing ... everyone likes his bean count in the forums, don't you?

But I would guess noone is playing primarily for the stats,

 

Character development through abilties that can be leaned in your one single precious life would give the game the right spin!

 

But how?

 

Here is my idea.

 

You should still be able to do everything with common sense as it is now. Like applying a toolkit to a car. But you shouldn't be good in doing what you do.

 

But I would suggest two different kind of traits. Call em as you like. I go for attributes, which are of physical nature and skills which is stuff you need to learn.

 

 

Attributes

can be increased through performance: Running, shooting and so on

 

Skills

can only be acquired if you ever find a corresponding piece of literature: 'Dean's electronics', 'The miracle of physics' or 'First aid for dummies'

After you found a book you need to read it and perform the action while having the book handy. After some time performing the action with the help of the book, a red square shines in your inventory, which says: 'Medical layman' which means you are still bad as shit but more profound than Mr. Smith, to green 'Wasteland MD'

 

Books

have different ohoh! levels and you only profit from them if you have the corresponding experience!!!

This what I think would have the following effect:

Freshspawn finds a high level!!! medical book and cannot use it, but there is someone who could benefit from it, this might be of some worth for someone. So maybe keep it, despite it has no benefits for you right now.

 

Don't get me wrong, I played with the term level. As said above you wouldn't see your progress. It is like getting fed, now.

 

And as I stated in a different topic with similar ideas: "After you invested some time in the character you are playing you will play differen, becaus all can be gone in one snap if you aren't prepared"

 

So what do you think???

 

OH SHIT!!! this is one wall of text! had to split it :D :blush:

Edited February 7, 2014 by elLoCo

[DougQuade 7]

Guys, it has nothing to do with alpha. If Dean doesn't want to implement such features, because he fears that players don't like it, he won't do it. And as it looks, he really fears it. He was talking about implementing a medical skill system, but it is not enough for the game to be a survival game. No matter how many features you add, there has to be progression at the character himself. And if this is not in the plans of developement, which I think is the case, it will NEVER be a survival game until some modders do the impossible.

 

 

The progression is with the person playing the character.  I think that is the point of survival. You progressm you stay alive longer, find better loot, meet new people, form alliances etc.... To have a character leveling system is not needed in a game like this.  Maybe for BF or COD, but not this game. 

[Karmaterror 982]

Here is my idea.

You should still be able to do everything with common sense. Like applying a toolkit to a car. But you shouldn't be good in doing what you do.

But   here is two different kind of traits. Call em as you like. I go for attributes, which are of physical nature and skills which is stuff you need to learn.

 

Attributes can be increased through performance: Running, shooting and so on

Skills can only be acquired if you ever find a corresponding piece of literature: 'Dean's electronics', 'The miracle of physics' or 'First aid for dummies'

After you found a book you need to read it and perform the action while having the book handy. After some time performing the action with the help of the book, a red square shines in your inventory, which says: 'Medical layman'

This means you are still bad as shit but more profound than Mr. Smith

 

The books have a different ohoh! level and you only profit from them if you have the corresponding experience!!!

This what I think would have the following effect:

Freshspawn finds a high level!!! medical book and cannot use it, but there is someone who could benefit from it, this might be of some worth for someone. So maybe keep it, despite it has no benefits for you right now.

 

And as I stated in a different topic with similar ideas: "After you invested some time in the character you are playing you will play differen, becaus all can be gone in one snap if you aren't prepared"

 

So what do you think???

 

Thats pretty much what i suggested a few pages back, except yours has books of varying level, like "for dummies" then "advanced"...ect ect......so i like it :)

[skyline-gtr 130]

elLoCo, your ideas would mean that some people simply stop playing the game and do all the actions required to level up.

[inos 1]

well... you group up go kill the bandits that's my goal now... If i die they pick up my gear give it back to me and the hunts continue.

Right now Im fully geared up and hope to find some guys for hunting...

 

for all other comments, yes the general challenge of the game is the balance of die hard and still somehow get out something of your spend hours... very tricky one... If you look at investation. this game got a global invent. So everybody  got plenty of guns and 1000m+ sniper guns take you out in no time. PVP at max.

 

I think a character development and strong holds in one or the other way will come. But PLEASE no gobal invent. 

[Jonah_Hobbes 171]

Progression Progression....what about "real" Progression?!

 

to stay alive as long as possible would be rewarding IF:

 

the longer your character lives the harder the game should be!

 

Why?

 

 

this also would reward playing as a team ´cause the longer you wander the

wilderness the more injuries add up the harder it gets, but with friends

you will be able to survive another day as they could give you medical treatment or

driving you around as you cannot move fast enough to outrun Zeds after

the 10th bullet passed through your leg.

 

everything degrades, so why should your toon prosper?

 

ok maybe a playerbuild homebase could reduce the effects a little, but not at all.

 

and it also would make bandits think twice about engaging someone as it is

harder for bandits to make friends to get medical treatment.

(sure there are also groups of bandits, and they should also get the benefit from working together,

but it would make it harder for our fellow BF4 Players to run around the map shooting everything

that moves)

 

so if someone gets to the top of a leaderboard (which you can look at but don`t have to if you don´t

care about) he can be sure he/she fought the harsh enviroment / 3-g brainers (yeah i talk about Zed´s...mmhh...do I? :D )

/ or human maniacs better then someone else.... thats something i could be proud of, as it is a survivalgame

and not a shooter, so the important thing is to survive not to add up kills, which will come along as you try to survive.

 

so back to work now :)

cya in chernarus

 

PepeLumpardo

 

The last thing I want is for DayZ to turn into some guild/clan game like WOW and other MMORGS, where the only way to get/keep decent stuff is by being in "team". I like playing a Lone Wolf and I think accidents aside you'd have just as much chance surviving on your own as you would in a group.

 

Why?

 

I'm less likely to be spotted on my own than in a group.

 

When I'm on my own I'm totally focused on what I'm doing and I'm not distracted by chat.

 

I don't have to take care of anyone else if they are injured.

 

 

 

Every game where I've joined a guild/clan I find the expectation to do stuff, be places, help out actually takes the shine off of a game.

 

I play comp games to relax and have some peace, if I want to go and have a social evening I'll head down the pub.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Jonah_Hobbes

[elLoCo 154]

elLoCo, your ideas would mean that some people simply stop playing the game and do all the actions required to level up.

 

You forget, that your character has needs. What you describe is a situation where we could store our stuff and already have shelter of some kind which would have needed a serious investment of ressources, before.

 

But what is the difference between this and fixing an UH-1?

In terms of 'playing' the game?

You check out what you need/want and run for supplies ... you stumble into some guys ... interaction ... that's the game ... at least for me.

Or what is your definition of being in the game, Skyline?

 

In my opinion it would add another layer and make each person precious in some way, because he can do stuff you simply aren't able to do.

It even would give your figure an incentive.

 

You wanna be the badass sniper?

-> find gun and ammo -> start practicing! -> would cost you ammo -> would wear off the gun -> urges you to maintain your stuff -> run for supplies

 

You wanna be the guy with the cars?

-> find a car -> need to find spare parts -> need to have a car manual and a toolkit -> start to repair -> fail with some parts (random, depends on your experience) -> get the car running -> run over a pot-hole -> run for spare-parts

 

Not different like current game mechanics, just a new layer!

But it makes every single char count!

 

And for all of you that are part of the banditry out there, here is a real nice thing for you!

In case you might need someone to fix your vehicle. So go, capture one (cuffs and burlap sack which you love so ) and force him to fix your ride.

 

Because, As 2PAC said:"Live by the gun, die by the gun" or like Eldon Tyrell said in Bladerunner: "The candle that shines twice as bright burns half as long"

- bandits mostly have a short lifespan.

 

At least, you could tell a story, couldn't you?

Edited February 7, 2014 by elLoCo

[FOXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXY 0]

If I may chime in, I think what DayZ needs is a gratification system. As mentioned by several others, there is a lack of accomplishment at end game. Coming from the Mod, there have been many a time, I find myself flying my buddies to and from the airfields solely to horde up ammunition and weapons. Whilst doing occasional sweeps of the major cities.in search of bandits. Always at the back of my mind was the question of; "what exactly are we going to do next? we've pretty much got all the ammo and guns we need, the food to last weeks."

 

Hence I am suggesting a substrate system to allow players to "grow" and build a "portfolio" of themselves. With each passing day, players will earn a credit which can be used to purchase premium attachments or weapons which are otherwise unobtainable through the traditional survive and salvage structure. Creating two distinct paths which players can embark on, either being a hero or bandit. Each with their own benefits and exclusive obtainables only allowed to the aforementioned classes. As players spend these credits, they will have to continue to strive for survival in order to purchase harder to obtain items. Players who perform a certain role such as medics, pilots and riflemen should also be able to buy on special skills or attachments to better aid their roles. Items such as weapons or attachments would be lost with death, whilst items such as hats and costumes would be bound onto the character and persist even after death, preventing looting and usage of those items.

 

An example would be say a L96A1 which would require a player to stay as a hero and survive without dying for a good 10 days. If the player were to be claimed by Chenarus, the counter would be reset and players would have to relive the ordeal. 

 

In game currency is a vital component of a game, in order to keep it fresh and worth playing, with a more diverse end game objective. Similar to how TF2 has done with the unique item system, with heirlooms and hats which aim to boost the value of playability. 

 

Another aspect worth looking at would be global events as some may have already mentioned. Having objectives which once completed, would reward players with unique and rare items or extra in game credits. Think along the lines of hostage rescue (NPC) or defend the fort with mobs and swarms of zombies. 

 

Of course this is just a suggestion, and there is indeed room for improvement and tweaks to said system. Feel free to add onto this if you have any ideas.

[skyline-gtr 130]

Dude your post is not making sense to me.

 

Attributes you increase by performing the relevant actions. Some people will find a good place, level up all skills before "playing" the game.

Finding skills in books. Are these magic books that disapear ? If yes, not realistic. If no, simply trade books. Also encourages people to find all the books they want/need before "playing" the game.

[skyline-gtr 130]

FOXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXY, forcing people into one of two roles is very narrow minded.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

Dude your post is not making sense to me.

 

Attributes you increase by performing the relevant actions. Some people will find a good place, level up all skills before "playing" the game.

Finding skills in books. Are these magic books that disapear ? If yes, not realistic. If no, simply trade books. Also encourages people to find all the books they want/need before "playing" the game.

You mean like people finding food before playing the game?  Anyway, no to skill points or any form of skill progression.  New players would just get eaten up by players who have survived and have their +20 accuracy because they kept firing a gun at zombies for 20 hours.  Bad idea and this should not happen and if it does, it was only a waste of $30.

[skyline-gtr 130]

hmm food is component of survival, while skills from magic books or increasing your stamina over a matter of hours is not.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

hmm food is component of survival, while skills from magic books or increasing your stamina over a matter of hours is not.

I get that but what is the right way to play the game?  To go an kill as many players as possible?  To survive as long as you can?  To be a medic hero that saves people lives?  To be a guy who reads all the books in the game?  There really isn't a right or wrong way to play the game.  And yes, I agree that going out just to find books to increase your skills/stats is not the way this game should go but in the end the loudest whiners will win.  I trust Bohemia as a company but at what point will the line be drawn from wanting to make lots of $$ to appease to the simpletons

Edited February 7, 2014 by Caboose187

[skyline-gtr 130]

I agree there is no right or wrong way to play.

My point has been aimed at these suggestion threads, all of them that I have responded to suggest a method that rewards a player for certain actions. The point being that some people will go out of their way to perform those actions before joining the rest of the community in the game.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

I agree there is no right or wrong way to play.

My point has been aimed at these suggestion threads, all of them that I have responded to suggest a method that rewards a player for certain actions. The point being that some people will go out of their way to perform those actions before joining the rest of the community in the game.

I totally agree.  We do not need the "Morrowind style of run around and increase athletics because you are running around" lol.  This game is based all on player skill not some special stat that you get to increase by time played.  This idea should just be thrown in the trash.

[DeatHTaX 1217]

I agree there is no right or wrong way to play.

My point has been aimed at these suggestion threads, all of them that I have responded to suggest a method that rewards a player for certain actions. The point being that some people will go out of their way to perform those actions before joining the rest of the community in the game.

 

Sorry skyline but caboose is right, this is never going to happen.

 

And why is this thread still going? I think we've concluded DayZ is an actual survival game lol xD

[skyline-gtr 130]

Sorry skyline but caboose is right, this is never going to happen.

 

And why is this thread still going? I think we've concluded DayZ is an actual survival game lol xD

perhaps you misunderstand....

[KingOfTime 267]

1.Character progression is badly needed to help add some point in surviving, as there is none to most players. The Elektro deathmatch is proof of this, I think.

 

2. Any skill that improved by doing it a bunch of times is exploitable, and shouldnt be in game.

 

3. If skills are implemented, they should be tied to extremely rare loot that when used is consumed.

-if you want to fix that car, you better fucking learn how.

-you want to fly a chopper? better find that flight manual.

-you want to reach out and touch someone from 800m?, well fuck, you better learn how that scope works.

-want to properly draw/give/store blood without causing an infection? better find that medical text

-want to start a fire without matches? find a survival text

-want to clean your gun without fucking it up? better learn how

 

The reality of the situation is that most people dont know how to do these things irl, and this is supposed to be a survival game. Whats the fun in having every respawn be a child of John Rambo and Macgyver? Without some kind of progression, and some kind of real punishment for death there is no purpose to surviving. When/if base building becomes a reality the deathmatch mentality will only get worse.-if it rhymes it cant be wrong :)

 

I say all of this as a player that doesnt KoS, and doesnt go looking for fights. A firefight with another player should have some kind of real consequence, beyond your ticket to the coast.

[hypermoon 75]

Can't agree more. And the game has permadeath. PERMADEATH! How can you not take the advantage of the opportunity to add character progression when you have an awesome feature like that. Any progression you aquire can be lost with one bullet. That's what makes it worth it.

 

If permadeath wasn't a component to this game than I'd definitely agree that it's not something I'd want. But the fact that any progress you got can be lost makes this such a good addition.

[skyline-gtr 130]

Magical items that work like plugging into the matrix and downloading the skill set, these items disappear after this.. magically.

 

Im not sure if this is realistic enough for a lot of people.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

Latest challenge:

 

Survive the lag in post-patch DayZ.