What Alpha Is Supposed To Be (A Discussion On Dev Direction And If The Game Will Ever Be Completed)

[Irenicus (DayZ) 289]

Lies and conjecture mixed in with odd bits of truth and legitimate concerns followed by more lies and conjecture....

Move along, move along. This isn't the thread you're looking for.

 

P.S. "Fellow developer" means absolutely zero zilch bupkiss squat nada rien nothing unless you can back that claim up with some hard facts.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Irenicus

[djporternz 644]

P.S. "Fellow developer" means absolutely zero zilch bupkiss squat nada rien nothing unless you can back that claim up with some hard facts.

Was thinking this exact same thing.

 

Anyway, Haven't we been told that the development will be in the order of a year or more? That seems to be plenty of time for everything to shake itself out.

 

And to the people bitching about the patch notes, you aren't going to get a complete list including all of the trivial changes made in the code. It is unrealistic. The team is small, they are inordinately busy. I for one don't want them to be stopping to document every single item they glance at.

 

If you can't handle the pace of the development, simply go away and come back in a year.

[DeatHTaX 1217]

The very notion of OP suggesting that they wont finish this game makes this thread pretty pointless imo ;D

[Nebulae3 422]

My perspective is not your perspective. I'm coming at it from that of somebody who has worked within the industry. Most of you seem to come from it purely as players. But that is why I wanted to start a legitimate discussion.

 

I've had the pleasure of working within the indie process and the conglomerate process as I like to call it. My favorite experience was working on an indie team and developing from the ground up. We spent nearly everything that we collectively had and a few years of time to develop an in-house engine from the ground up. We then gained a great community before our company, software, and essentially our employees were bought out by the major corporation (I can't call them by name for legal reasons). So to say that I don't know trends or innovative ways to develop a game and generate buzz and revenue is laughable. 

 

But I'm coming from that perspective. And therefore I'm allowed to raise concerns because once you go through it and you know the tales of others going through these things you see the signs. I attempted to start a conversation about these concerns and the direction of development.

 

Yet you fanboys and trolls treat Dean and this game as if he is GOD and it the Bible. Whether you believe in GOD and the Bible, shouldn't there be legitimate discussion about these things? The answer apparently is no. You're going to thump the bible as hard as you can to anybody that has a different perspective and therefore fresh concerns that you may not have thought of.

 

I hope you're not from ESO - that ship is sinking and fast!

All abandon ship! ;D 

Unless they hire Todd Howard, but he is busy with 'new' Fallout.

 

-Ori

Edited January 29, 2014 by Ori42

[DeatHTaX 1217]

This is what I've been saying the whole time...except whenever I make even the smallest point about this topic I get shunned into oblivion. I completely agree with the OP unless they make some development changes. What proof do we have that this game may never be finished? The mod never even left "alpha". The mod wasn't even close to being finished. Many core elements still unrefined. But no, MORE GUNS AND CLOTHES

 

Same as with the mod, the developers just call it an alpha forever so the playerbase just blanket statements all the bad rep the game receives with the "It's an alpha" bullshit. Three years until full release? Try to keep anyone's attention for that long; they're going to miss the window of popularity.

 

Well then that makes us the fools for buying a game that may never be finished, now doesn't it?

[Nebulae3 422]

@op wrote a wall of text imho - I don't know why I bother to read it... 'sigh

PLS. CONISDER THIS BEFORE POSTING; HOW MANY WORDS CAN I EDIT OUT -

AND DELIVER THE SAME CONTENT!

so sry, caps! ;D

Edited January 29, 2014 by Ori42

[Nightmare_Pwner 2]

Its pretty obvious that the game will never be finished, and by finished I mean to level of lies and deceitful promises made by Todd Howard. 

 

Anyone thinking otherwise is just in a state of denial and fanboyism.

 

Mod was made and released. Never finished.

Standalone was made and released. Still not finished.

 

At this point we should hope for members of the community to be able to pick it up and make their own versions eliminating the need for speculation threads like this. 

[blacklabel79 949]

OP comes across as bitter. Sorry they canned your game BUT that dosent mean dayZ will never be "finished". Altho iam sure it will be released at some Point.

 

Modding a Alpha is Kind of a moot point...relax and see how things progress...

 

Whatever happens...i have more fun with the pre-alpha than i had with full blown comercial Releases in then last...years.

 

These kind of threats are just a disguise for "haters" to voice "ligitimate concerns" ( hint, the whole its A SHEME bs...this is capitalism, game development isent charity, you as a "fellow developer" should know that ) instead of just lay back and enjoi the ride.

Edited January 29, 2014 by {Core}BlackLabel

[DeatHTaX 1217]

Its pretty obvious that the game will never be finished, and by finished I mean to level of lies and deceitful promises made by Todd Howard. 

 

Anyone thinking otherwise is just in a state of denial and fanboyism.

 

Mod was made and released. Never finished.

Standalone was made and released. Still not finished.

 

At this point we should hope for members of the community to be able to pick it up and make their own versions eliminating the need for speculation threads like this. 

 

Wouldn't it make sense that the mod was never finished because they turned it into a standalone game instead of putting more work into finishing a MOD? I'm sorry, since when is it illegal to decide to start making money off of an idea you developed. I'm assuming they stopped working on the mod because working on the standalone actually involves a profit, and an opportunity to do something awesome. So the argument you make tying the "failure" of the mod to the impending "failure" of the game is kind of ridiculous

 

And if they're not going to finish the game, then why are you here lol. Clearly they're a bunch of liars and not worth your time, so why bother even discussing it? just leave

[Nebulae3 422]

 

Its pretty obvious that the game will never be finished, and by finished I mean to level of lies and deceitful promises made by Todd Howard. 

 

This sentence doesn't make any sense..

DayZ have nothing to do with Bethesda company.

Todd Howard didn't develop ESO - his team just assisted the lore part.

TES (the elder scrolls) is a single player game like Skyrim.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Ori42

[Nebulae3 422]

Maybe we need a similar forum policy like Star citizen to

show below our forum nick who is actually a backer of DayZ early alpha.

There are many internetz trolls out there..

Edited January 29, 2014 by Ori42

[Element47 2480]

as a HCI researcher with indie game developers among my friends, i cannot share your assessment.

 

1. EAA: has been open to focus groups, has been opened up following demands from the community, price tag for finished game + early access is not unusual, providing early access to early backers is pretty common by now.

 

2. Console: please provide quotes + sources for your statement, that console ports are imminent. In an interview with Eurogamer in Summer 2013, Dean stated:

When asked whether console manufacturers Sony and Microsoft had approached him about putting DayZ on an upcoming console he replied, "Yeah, we talked to both of them. But, as I'm sure you're aware, Sony lets you self-publish and they don't make you pay for updates. Microsoft requires you to have a publisher. They have no digital distribution strategy and they require you to pay $10,000, or whatever it is, for updates."

 

"What about Sony, then?" I asked.

 

"Oh, absolutely. We like them. I like what I saw on the PS4," Hall said. "I like what I saw on the Xbox in a lot of cases as well. I'm not s***ting on them. I'm kind of hopeful that Microsoft has just forgot to talk about its indie support. Maybe I'm being a bit naive."

 

So if both parties are interested and Hall is happy with Sony's current approach towards indie devs, why hasn't he signed on yet? The answer is simple: his main priority is getting the PC version of DayZ Standalone up and running first before he can start worrying about ports.

 

When asked about developing for PS4, Hall replied, "That's definitely something we'd look at, but we have to do the PC version first. Once we get the alpha out, that's a good time for us to run it up on a [PS4] dev kit and see what happens."

 

Please provide a more recent quote to support your claim of "imminent" port.

 

 

3a. Listening to the Community: If you have even the slightest experience, you know of the massive difference between listening to the community, and actually doing whatever the community demands. A strength of Dean Hall was keeping true to his own vision despite the often self-contradicting demands from the community. This is what has earned him a lot of respect. The frequent communication with the community using social media outlets like twitter and reddit (last AMA on reddit was one week ago if i am not mistaken) also adds to the impression, that the devs do actually care about the community.

 

3b. Updates: really? so you missed for example the changes to the backend, the separation of hardcore and regular hive, the fixes to server memory issues? Updates are been frequent, well-comunicated, and include fixes (documented and undocumented) as well as gameplay additions. Many features are tested with trusted, established community pillars before hitting the stable branch. this is as exemplary as one could wish from a game dev.

 

4. Promises/Timeline: you will agree that there is significant difference between setting milestones for your team, and communicating them to the public, especially on a project under such media scrutiny like DayZ.. also:

 

 

 

 

I am worried about many singular aspects of the project, but not about Deans ability to realize his vision, and not about his honesty to the community.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

I'll try to be brief.

 

1. Unlikely, and who did you work for OP (you said collaboration)?

2. They are adding features, as alpha is supposed to be all about.

3. Bohemia isn't exactly a scheming type, but they do support their game for quite a while post release.

 

What Early Access Alpha & Alpha Are Meant To Be

Functionality aside, spray cans require a specific kind of support on the engine that might be needed for a group of other features.

 

Releasing An Early Access Alpha To A Wide Public

This model has been used by minecraft (only success i can relate to) and a lot of indie games are going this route rather than trying to find a publisher. The main advantage being that you set your own deadlines and you don't have to report to anyone. Also you have no obligation of profit on final release since your budget was essentially already paid for rather than loaned to you.

 

The Developers Talk Console

Not much to say, you're not Chris Roberts by any chance?

 

Updates/Not Listening To The Community

1. Because they don't have to, preordering a game doesn't give you a say in it's content and direction, if you decide to fund a game, you where convinced by the pitch, have a little faith or do not fund projects you do not trust.

2. They have probably a year or more ahead of them to make this game, they can certainly delay bugfixing a little. Spray cans might just be the quickest way to get a new engine feature tested by players, who knows. And PR is important.

Empty Promises/No Timeline

Well some of your points are fishy enough, so you're gonna have to give us the benefit of the doubt on whether you know what you are talking about or not.

I don't know what's up with vehicles, considering it's an acquired feature of the RV engine since operation flashpoint, so the only reason i could see is that either the assets are not ready (odd considering any of the old rustpiles of arma 2 would do) or they simply don't want to release this right now for god know what reason (maybe they are doing some vehicle modification thing, how would i know)

Crunchtime

Bohemia interactive is a czech company, jobs only include max 40 hours of work per week, they can do up to 150 hours of overtime per year overtime has to be paid fully with a 25% bonus or be compensated with time off.

Basically it sounds like they did a bunch of overtime and since a lot of time off was due they decided to close the studio for several days to use everyone's time off.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Lady Kyrah

[Nebulae3 422]

Chris Roberts, no, he too busy with DFM. :D

Besides, he has never worked on an AA title in sci-fi genre.

But some companies like Dice release unfinished pc games -

I just hope it doesn't become a habit..

Maybe if u email steam or EA u will get a refund. :)

Edited January 29, 2014 by Ori42

[bfisher 561]

The OP's concerns are not unreasonable.  I also manage software development for a living (not games though) and a public release Alpha is a bit odd.  Basically you are releasing a buggy, semi-tested, unfinished application out into the wild for public scrutiny. A disclaimer pop-up doesn't change public perception.  It just defers legal responsibility for delivering a potentially crappy product.

 

Not to mention you're also leaving a lot of money on the table from people would would have paid $60 for a finished game, rather than $20 for an "alpha". 

 

From a pure business standpoint, the number of people who buy the game will drop over time and the funding Rocket and his team receive to continue developing builds will slow.  At some point it simply won't make economic sense to continue work.  Remember most people already paid their $20.  Bohemia doesn't get any more money the longer you play.   The question is will what build will this happen at and will it be during alpha, beta, or production.

 

Or will DayZ be like one of the bullshit Kickstarter games that look really cool but then release some crappy alpha and run out of money?

 

Or maybe Rocket himself gets bored.  He's been doing this for a few years now. Of course, fanboyZ freak out any the very thought that Rocket won't be chained to his workstation for the rest of his life constantly perfecting this game.

[Mdogg2005 447]

Mod was made and released. Never finished.

Standalone was made and released. Still not finished.

 

At this point we should hope for members of the community to be able to pick it up and make their own versions eliminating the need for speculation threads like this. 

OMFG A MONTH INTO ALPHA AND THE GAME ISN'T DONE? I WANT MY REFUND MONEYS!  RABBLE RABBLE!

 

Also the game wasn't released - it was opened up for early access alpha.  If you can't understand the difference go back to 2nd grade English class to learn some basic reading comprehension.

 

I swear to fuck the people on this forum are going to eventually give me cancer I'm sure of it.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Mdogg2005

[gottyplays 5]

I won't quote your OP here, as it is nothing but BS, innuendo, Conspiracy mongering and Bias.

 

I'm not going to address the specific points you raise, simply because the language you are using shows more about your biases and nothing about the process that we are involved in WRT DayZ.

 

The entirety of my reply is simply this:

 

ArmA III

Alpha -> Beta -> Release -> ... Beyond ...

 

This product from BI was released in the same manner as DayZ was. Early Access via steam for US$29 - US$99 depending on your disposition towards BI and the development of the new ArmA and the new RV engine. Even now, experimental branch is recieving regular (daily) updates. Sure, these are mostly content to do with the single player missions, but work is still being incorporated into the underlying engine. Including networking code being developed by the DayZ team.

 

The only difference between the ArmA and DayZ developments, if I might be so bold, is that the ArmA group were all, almost without exception, fully aware of what the finished product would NOT be.

 

The DayZ group as manifest here within these forums, consists of many similar minded people as the ArmA group, but there is a large and vocal group that are solely focused on the final product and are not aware of the consequences of opting-in at this stage of the development process.

 

 

Bias, BS and crap. In that order.

 

I'm liking the way BI are financing their development and the early access to their products. If you go in with your eyes wide open and can deal with the vagueries of this approach, it is a remarkable experience. Being there at the start and then being able to use the finished product and remember all of the bumps throughout the journey, is simply unmissable.

 

So, you can go with your rigid software development philosophy and your hard time limits for your AAA product and I hope you are emminantly happy.

 

I'm going to sit right here and let Rocket and the other devs the freedom to produce their game their way. And if it appears that their process is a little less than optimal, who cares. If it takes a little longer than anticipated, who cares. As long as they don't exclude me from the ride!

Buddy, don't come up with bullshit...arma 3 it's still in beta.

[Element47 2480]

The OP's concerns are not unreasonable.  I also manage software development for a living (not games though) and a public release Alpha is a bit odd.  Basically you are releasing a buggy, semi-tested, unfinished application out into the wild for public scrutiny. A disclaimer pop-up doesn't change public perception.  It just defers legal responsibility for delivering a potentially crappy product.

 

Not to mention you're also leaving a lot of money on the table from people would would have paid $60 for a finished game, rather than $20 for an "alpha". 

 

From a pure business standpoint, the number of people who buy the game will drop over time and the funding Rocket and his team receive to continue developing builds will slow.  At some point it simply won't make economic sense to continue work.  Remember most people already paid their $20.  Bohemia doesn't get any more money the longer you play.   The question is will what build will this happen at and will it be during alpha, beta, or production.

 

Or will DayZ be like one of the bullshit Kickstarter games that look really cool but then release some crappy alpha and run out of money?

 

Or maybe Rocket himself gets bored.  He's been doing this for a few years now. Of course, fanboyZ freak out any the very thought that Rocket won't be chained to his workstation for the rest of his life constantly perfecting this game.

 

I have come to learn that game development follows its own, sometimes shifting, rules. but then, so does research. we churn out buggy proof-of-concept code and barely working demonstrators all the time, and yet the funding grants keep rolling in :)

 

opening the alpha to the public surely was not without peril, but what are the alternatives? survival games are popping up like mushrooms after heavy summe rain, bringing early access to the public with a price tag attached allows to bind at least some of the potential demographic. with a passionate and loyal fanbase created by the mod, it was probably the best move.

 

as for Dean Hall - he stated openly that he will not stick with DayZ once the game is released. From what i gathered from interviews and AMAs he will be opening his own studio and focusing on a new challenge after DayZ release, while DayZ maintenance and content updates remain with Bohemia

[africanhungergames 192]

I honeslty would like to see the game breaking bugs removed first.

 

Wall clipping.

server hopping.

ladders.

 

 I would generally like to see things like this fixed before i want to see cosmetic stuff in the game like paint and guns.

 

Surely it would make sense to get rid of these fundamental flaws with the engine first then adding new items into the game.

 

They say they have built a new engine but it has the same problems as the old one, surely they should be fixing these things early with the new engine rather then after loads of stuff has been added.

 

I am no developer but i think that would make the most sense.

[OrLoK 16185]

 

 

1) Bohemia Interactive is only using this as a publicity stunt and way to generate quick revenue. It was never their intention to allow the dev team to create a finished game. The game will eventually be put on permanent hiatus. (This happens often. It happened on the last would be AAA title that I collaborated on)

 

2) The development team has no clear direction or goals. Essentially there's no clear focused way to their developmental habits which also spells doom for the game.

 

3) The development team was part of a scheme to generate a lot of money for a product that would remain in developmental hell for years before finally being put on permanent hiatus. (Not Likely)

 

 

Hello there

 

Im sorry, but these three "points" are not acceptable as reasoned argument. I will continue to refer to them as well as the OPs rant about

 

So. I'm so sorry for questioning your almighty GOD and your bible.

 

​These are not "glib" comments. And if this the kind of nonsense that OP spews over the phone or does not/will not address in further posts and expects folk just to "get it" by osmosis or some empathic feeling, for me the argument is moot.

 

OP expresses surprise that folk acted negatively to these comments? How can you be surprised and shocked? If I went to any site and made such baseless spurious claims I would, at the very least ,be expected to be vigorously argued with. At the very least.

 

Then to throw a hissy fit (i refer you to your GOD quote) really does not help your case.

 

You have had some support here also. So, to suddenly retire from the thread because folk "attack your knowledge" again speaks volumes.

 

You are entitled to your opinions and even suspicions. But when you claim such ridiculous theorums as fact, well, that gets my goat.

 

Perhaps I myself have been too harsh but its incredibly galling when one has to read posts as the OPs when they do not know what is going on.

 

​Fine, say that you think their development roadmap or PR is poor or incorrect, but when one posts drivel as the 3 points as "knowledge" or possible fact then...

 

well, Jebus...

 

Rgds

 

LoK

 

Update: Ive now  forced myself to read the rest of the thread, I didnt do so before as I didnt want to be infuriated/facepalm. Again, its full of nonsense.

Edited January 29, 2014 by orlok

[fitzee 248]

From a pure business standpoint, the number of people who buy the game will drop over time and the funding Rocket and his team receive to continue developing builds will slow.  At some point it simply won't make economic sense to continue work.  Remember most people already paid their $20.  Bohemia doesn't get any more money the longer you play.   The question is will what build will this happen at and will it be during alpha, beta, or production.

 

Hi.

 

Maybe you don't know how Bohemia operates?

 

They aren't like the big publishing companys that make dev studios follow deadlines, then drop all development to work on a new version of said game each year.

 

They are a small dev studio who support their games for years, with frequent patches and some new content. It has earned them a good loyal fanbase. Abandoning DayZ obviously isn't out of the realm of possibility, but given their track record its highly unlikely.

 

Regards.

[Soupee 57]

The revenue from the mod would have come in regardless of whether BI committed the team to the Standalone. So it's not exactly accurate to say that they were generating revenue by working on the Standalone. The revenue was coming from the mod, not the work they were doing the past 18 months.

 

In fact, their decision to take the team OFF the mod and have them focus on the Standalone even though the mod was generating revenue for them is fantastic evidence that they weren't in it for quick cash. Quick cash would have come from continuing to push the mod hard or moving it to ARMA 3 which sells for $59.99.

 

 

Like I said... you can't win here.  You know what I meant.  Committing to the standalone further hyped the mod, etc, etc.  It's impossible without a time machine to figure out how it would have played out had the SA not been announced.

 

Let's just say it didn't hurt.

 

And I never said they were in it for quick cash.  All I meant was that BI was benifiting financially from DayZ mod, and not just because Dean was working on SA.

[deebz1234 243]

Man, you don't understand that, the artists of the game made the painting of the guns, and they can't work on optimization, this is work for other people.

Im both a graphical programmer and a graphic artist.

 

I can program optimizations till the cows come home and I can also do art...

 

I am not a minority...

 

you know what else I can do? I can help the secretary with just about any computer problem she has too...

 

its called multitasking and applying work force where needed

 

stop this ridiculous notion that people only do 1 job and 1 job only

[OrLoK 16185]

Im both a graphical programmer and a graphic artist.

 

I can program optimizations till the cows come home and I can also do art...

 

I am not a minority...

 

you know what else I can do? I can help the secretary with just about any computer problem she has too...

 

its called multitasking and applying work force where needed

 

stop this ridiculous notion that people only do 1 job and 1 job only

Hello there

 

But if you are working remotely and artists are tasked with a list of items and LODs to create its unlikely they will be given programming overspill.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[Zombie Jesus 723]

Spray cans, whether or not they are easy to put in (and I would argue that the way they work is somewhat complex when compared to most items, as they aren't changing a variable [like food, blood bags, water] and aren't a copy-paste of existing items with a new model [the guns, which many of testing done has shown them to have the same stats-incorrect stats, I might add-as existing weapons], but instead remove an item from the game and replace it with a new one), they clearly weren't tested internally before release. If they had been, the devs would have immediately noticed that the mosin bug.

So that isn't really a good argument on your part.

 

The point was not really about the spray cans though. I was speaking about the fact that some of the team will be devoted to adding in new items while other parts will be working on network architecture, others on the map, etc etc etc. So saying why add in a spray can while we have broken zombies is a dumb argument since they are most likely being worked on at the same time by those qualified to work on those issues. So if you want to complain about the lack of internal testing you have a point. If you tie that to not finishing zombie AI, loot spawning mechanics, or other areas of development I will say that is stupid and shows a lack of insight into how games are developed.