What Alpha Is Supposed To Be (A Discussion On Dev Direction And If The Game Will Ever Be Completed)

[punkvegita 44]

5 YEARS LATERS:

PLAYER1: "man when are they gunna release cars and make it that zombies don't go through walls, and when will it be safe to actually climb a ladder."

FANBOY: "You obviously can't read it' an alpha bro.

 

LOL

[weedmasta 784]

Wait so:

 

1. You still insist on not telling us what you worked on and what your job was.

2. You want to start a discussion in a forum where the majority of people are players and yet you talk down to them that they are not developers and how much more you know about developing games.

3. Questioning something is one thing, claiming things based on wild assumptions and trying to make it sound like it is fact is completely different.

 

Is this just an ego trip of a very weak personality I wonder.

[lets 92]

5 YEARS LATERS:

PLAYER1: "man when are they gunna release cars and make it that zombies don't go through walls, and when will it be safe to actually climb a ladder."

FANBOY: "You obviously can't read it' an alpha bro.

 

LOL

So, just because they didn't do that after just only one month after release, you think they'll never do this these things.

[Ramblin Hans 118]

Well written post, and one has to acknowledge these are possibilities, even though one might not agree that any of these things are actually going to happen. And there are certainly other possible outcomes.

 

I mainly agree with your statement

 

To release the Early Access Alpha for $30 USD (remember this is usually an extremely barebones version of the game) is also unusual. Before anybody screams about the popup that you agree to before you start playing (about how the game isn't complete), I chose to buy this as a fellow developer because I had an interest in watching the game develop around the community. 

 

I look at this like a kickstarter with something you can actually sink your teeth into up front. We play, we enjoy....or we don't enjoy and we don't. I was happy to give the money because the concept is something I am excited about and well worth it just to support it. If it is never released, or never realizes its full potential, I'll be very disappointed. But I will never feel ripped off.

[Solopopo 330]

 

 

WARNING: THIS GAME IS EARLY ACCESS ALPHA. PLEASE DO NOT PURCHASE IT UNLESS YOU WANT TO ACTIVELY SUPPORT DEVELOPMENT OF THE GAME AND ARE PREPARED TO HANDLE WITH SERIOUS ISSUES AND POSSIBLE INTERRUPTIONS OF GAME FUNCTIONING.

 

There needs to be a take beans button for posts like this. The OP makes a solid argument, and seeks to engage the community in a discussion about the future of the game, and you respond with this shit? Why do you even post? 

Edited January 28, 2014 by Solopopo

[OrLoK 16182]

So I'm so sorry for questioning your almighty GOD and your bible. But that's all I did. Question it. 

Until, this you almost had me on side. Almost.

 

Again, you may have had some salient points, but with your 3 possibilities presented as fact you rather negated your argument.

 

This statement here also goes someway to show that you are not interested in true discourse.

 

Anyone whos been here for some time knows im also quite the critic and have been vocal about our concerns.

 

Remember, just because someone is not approaching a project in the standard way it does not make it incorrect.

 

Lets wait and see.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[TehGoat 23]

Hey Guys Goat here, I'm a developer also and my wife is a model and I drive a 1981 Delorean DMC-12. You should believe everything I say because this is the internet and I deliver Arabian horse babies and sell them to royal families. Dayz is Awesome sauce and you will find yourself half smiling when you look at your phone and see that its 4 in the morning and you have been playing for like 17 hours.

 

Remember I'm a developer and I say this game is good and will be completed in exactly 467 days from now. 

[Zombie Jesus 723]

There have been some fans who simply chose to pm me to stay away from the craziness and some who have posted here. But they had legitimate things to make. Points to make. And I appreciated them. 

 

The original goal for this was this:

 

To offer a perspective on what I and other developers are seeing and discussing. And what we're seeing and discussing is internal mismanagement of a game that has tremendous potential to be so many different things. While we don't agree what it will become, we have all agreed that from our own experiences and perspectives that something is off about this development process. Yet there has been a refusal to even discuss that there is even a possibility that this is happening and that honestly saddens me. 

 

And I personally wanted to hear from other perspectives about this. 

 

To us the timeline offered mixed with the behavior simply doesn't add up to what they've said they aspire to do with this game. I'm not downing them for taking time off and being a small team. 

 

I'm saying that given the size of their team, the relaxed approach that they're taking, and the rather ambitious timeline that they've laid out we simply don't think that they could meet those goals without losing sight of other important gameplay elements. At this point most developers that I've talked to and I feel as if there isn't a strong focus on implementing what should be implemented within Early Access and then Alpha. We'd be surprised and awestruck if they made it to what a beta should be after a year (just because it's called beta doesn't make it a beta). 

 

Posters are acting as if I've set this timeline for them and I want them to follow it when they claim that I've said that the game isn't being developed quickly enough. I want just the opposite. For them to take more time so that they can focus on things that may not make the player base jump for you but that will improve the game's "playability". That's what EAA and Alpha is supposed to be. That's why so many titles release it to such a small player base. 

 

To say that I shouldn't be concerned that they decided to not enter crunch time before an update that wasn't 100% ready to be rolled out is not something that I understand. I voiced my concerns based on a lot of discussion with those that have a similar perspective (that being of a game developers) only to be told by the fanboys and trolls that I'm not allowed to have those concerns. 

 

There's been excuse after excuse made all aimed at telling me that I'm not allowed to have concerns. Someone said that a year from now they'll revisit this thread to see if my concerns were legitimate. And I suppose that that's all that we can do. So I'm so sorry for questioning your almighty GOD and your bible. But that's all I did. Question it. 

 

If that was your goal what was with those three initial "reasons" for the issues. You could lay out the issues and even state they seem to be in disarray and while you would receive some backlash you could have an honest discussion with some posters. Hell even this post would be a decent conversation starter minus the fanboy, God, and Bible nonsense. But that is not what you are here to do, you are here to claim to have a background I seriously question (for good reason) and make stupid statements devoid of facts (it must be this this or this, two of them are tinfoil hat conspiracies and the other is the developers are morons). 

I will point out I completely sidestepped your flame at the beginning and discussed industry trends on early access ie Alpha and the pros and cons. I then posted about getting free press being smart and anyone who is not completely devoid of economic sense can see why developers need good press in this circumstance. Then I posted about the concept of concurrent development since you found it so absurd that a shotgun and spray paint can be added before major bug fixes. 

 

You responded to zero points and then just let loose with fanboy nonsense. So please tell me again how you wish to have a legitimate discussion when all you do is flame and claim to be a developer with no knowledge of the current industry and a lack of insight on concurrent development and compartmentalization of a project? 

 

Also the timeline is not all that ambitious, ambitious is a timeline that WarZ laid out during their Alpha. Saying the game will be into beta release in a year is not some unbelievable goal and actually caused some people to question why it is going so slow. 

Edited January 29, 2014 by Zombie Jesus

[weedmasta 784]

Hey Guys Goat here, I'm a developer also and my wife is a model and I drive a 1981 Delorean DMC-12. You should believe everything I say because this is the internet and I deliver Arabian horse babies and sell them to royal families. Dayz is Awesome sauce and you will find yourself half smiling when you look at your phone and see that its 4 in the morning and you have been playing for like 17 hours.

 

Remember I'm a developer and I say this game is good and will be completed in exactly 467 days from now. 

 

I think someone just won the thread :D

[jovlon 32]

Until, this you almost had me on side. Almost.

 

Again, you may have had some salient points, but with your 3 possibilities presented as fact you rather negated your argument.

 

This statement here also goes someway to show that you are not interested in true discourse.

 

Anyone whos been here for some time knows im also quite the critic and have been vocal about our concerns.

 

Remember, just because someone is not approaching a project in the standard way it does not make it incorrect.

 

Lets wait and see.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

 

If you think that it's absurd that I liken the way that I've been attacked for stating opinions about a game to those that try to have a discussion about religion then you have to allow how absurd to read how quickly people created talking points and forced the conversation to focus on those. 

 

Even though I shouldn't have to I'm going to say sorry if it was misinterpreted as me making factual claims. When I've said these things over the phone or in real life nobody ever took it that way and when I read it back I don't take it that way nor does anybody else that I've asked to read it. They took it for what it was but yet there's this bullshit talking point about how I'm trying to bring the game down by starting rumors. 

 

And I feel that as some posters immediately were hostile I was more than respectful. And it is frustrating to have to read peoples comments who attack my knowledge when it's so clear to us that they've never worked within a team on even a small project. For them to attack my perspective was laughable and now it's frustrating. I didn't mind the many others who made opposing and valid points based off of their perspective. And I question how they understood where I was coming from, how people in RL understood where I was coming from, but a few jerks didn't.

 

Remember, just because I have a different opinion doesn't mean that mine is wrong. 

 

Question my credentials if it makes you feel better but I'd guess that at least some of those same people have played and enjoyed one of the latest projects that I've been a part of. It was a multi-platformer within the survival zombie horror genre that was adapted from an extremely popular TV series. 

 

I'll leave you guys to it. As you said let's all save this thread and in six months down the road, a year down the road revisit it and see if I had the right to be concerned. 

 

I'm retiring from this thread. 

[S1ippery Jim 139]

One thing I would disagree with is that we should even care if the game is ever 'finished'. Keep in mind that Rocket seems to be using the Minecraft model as a reference for how he is approaching the development and release of SA. Minecraft was released in early Alpha stage, although it eventually reach v1.0 it is still changing and being developed and will never truly be 'finished'.

 

That said, I agree with some of the concerns raised by the OP. Namely the implementation of cosmetic 'dress up' features rather than focussing on getting the fundamentals and basics working properly first before adding these extras. This has actually often been apparent in the approach to the development in both the mod and now the standalone.

 

The development has also been sporadic, at times it appears a frenzy of intense work is put in and other times it seems the devs go off on extended holidays or spend all their time doing interviews and AMAs and generally basking in sales figures. I have no problem with the sales or paying for the game, by the way, I actually feel BHI and Rocket deserved to make a ton of money out of DayZ based around how epic the mod is).

 

However it is frustrating and sad for me as a longtime DayZ mod player that the paid alpha standalone is so much worse than the alpha mod in so many ways.

 

One of my main disappointments even prior to release is that they did not bother to release with a new map.

 

And yes we did pay for it and we did read the warning (which conveniently allows the devs a cop out for anything and everything) and so we have no right to be critical or question anything nor expect anything better or quicker than what the devs in their wisdom choose to deliver Dean willing and in their good time.

[TehGoat 23]

If you think that it's absurd that I liken the way that I've been attacked for stating opinions about a game to those that try to have a discussion about religion then you have to allow how absurd to read how quickly people created talking points and forced the conversation to focus on those. 

 

Even though I shouldn't have to I'm going to say sorry if it was misinterpreted as me making factual claims. When I've said these things over the phone or in real life nobody ever took it that way and when I read it back I don't take it that way nor does anybody else that I've asked to read it. They took it for what it was but yet there's this bullshit talking point about how I'm trying to bring the game down by starting rumors. 

 

And I feel that as some posters immediately were hostile I was more than respectful. And it is frustrating to have to read peoples comments who attack my knowledge when it's so clear to us that they've never worked within a team on even a small project. For them to attack my perspective was laughable and now it's frustrating. I didn't mind the many others who made opposing and valid points based off of their perspective. And I question how they understood where I was coming from, how people in RL understood where I was coming from, but a few jerks didn't.

 

Remember, just because I have a different opinion doesn't mean that mine is wrong. 

 

Question my credentials if it makes you feel better but I'd guess that at least some of those same people have played and enjoyed one of the latest projects that I've been a part of. It was a multi-platformer within the survival zombie horror genre that was adapted from an extremely popular TV series. 

 

I'll leave you guys to it. As you said let's all save this thread and in six months down the road, a year down the road revisit it and see if I had the right to be concerned. 

 

I'm retiring from this thread. 

 

 

 

 

Do you drink Dos Equis?

Edited January 29, 2014 by TehGoat

[PhilB 230]

My perspective is not your perspective. I'm coming at it from that of somebody who has worked within the industry. Most of you seem to come from it purely as players. But that is why I wanted to start a legitimate discussion.

 

I've had the pleasure of working within the indie process and the conglomerate process as I like to call it. My favorite experience was working on an indie team and developing from the ground up. We spent nearly everything that we collectively had and a few years of time to develop an in-house engine from the ground up. We then gained a great community before our company, software, and essentially our employees were bought out by the major corporation (I can't call them by name for legal reasons). So to say that I don't know trends or innovative ways to develop a game and generate buzz and revenue is laughable. 

 

But I'm coming from that perspective. And therefore I'm allowed to raise concerns because once you go through it and you know the tales of others going through these things you see the signs. I attempted to start a conversation about these concerns and the direction of development.

 

Yet you fanboys and trolls treat Dean and this game as if he is GOD and it the Bible. Whether you believe in GOD and the Bible, shouldn't there be legitimate discussion about these things? The answer apparently is no. You're going to thump the bible as hard as you can to anybody that has a different perspective and therefore fresh concerns that you may not have thought of.

 

I feel you, however it isn't that anyone thinks these questions are off limits for discussion. It's because we've been here awhile and argued all that shit ad nauseum. I don't wanna pull any cards like search function. God knows I've never found a damn useful thread using the search function. But I'm guessing op is not well read on the forums and simply doesn't realize we've all turned a critical eye many times towards Dean and the dev team, to the degree each issue deserved. But for most of us, I think we can proudly say we are fairly satisfied with the product so far and most things have gone in the direction we'd hoped.

[omgwtfbbq (DayZ) 1069]

This is what I've been saying the whole time...except whenever I make even the smallest point about this topic I get shunned into oblivion. I completely agree with the OP unless they make some development changes. What proof do we have that this game may never be finished? The mod never even left "alpha". The mod wasn't even close to being finished. Many core elements still unrefined. But no, MORE GUNS AND CLOTHES

 

Same as with the mod, the developers just call it an alpha forever so the playerbase just blanket statements all the bad rep the game receives with the "It's an alpha" bullshit. Three years until full release? Try to keep anyone's attention for that long; they're going to miss the window of popularity.

[fuckasshole 7]

heres my advice to you OP: eat shit

Edited January 29, 2014 by orlok
this is unnaceptable

[weedmasta 784]

 

If you think that it's absurd that I liken the way that I've been attacked for stating opinions about a game to those that try to have a discussion about religion then you have to allow how absurd to read how quickly people created talking points and forced the conversation to focus on those. 

 

Even though I shouldn't have to I'm going to say sorry if it was misinterpreted as me making factual claims. When I've said these things over the phone or in real life nobody ever took it that way and when I read it back I don't take it that way nor does anybody else that I've asked to read it. They took it for what it was but yet there's this bullshit talking point about how I'm trying to bring the game down by starting rumors. 

 

And I feel that as some posters immediately were hostile I was more than respectful. And it is frustrating to have to read peoples comments who attack my knowledge when it's so clear to us that they've never worked within a team on even a small project. For them to attack my perspective was laughable and now it's frustrating. I didn't mind the many others who made opposing and valid points based off of their perspective. And I question how they understood where I was coming from, how people in RL understood where I was coming from, but a few jerks didn't.

 

Remember, just because I have a different opinion doesn't mean that mine is wrong. 

 

Question my credentials if it makes you feel better but I'd guess that at least some of those same people have played and enjoyed one of the latest projects that I've been a part of. It was a multi-platformer within the survival zombie horror genre that was adapted from an extremely popular TV series. 

 

I'll leave you guys to it. As you said let's all save this thread and in six months down the road, a year down the road revisit it and see if I had the right to be concerned. 

 

I'm retiring from this thread. 

 

Oh dear, if it is the game I am thinking about no wonder, DayZ SA even in its current form is by leaps and bounds better. And again opinion is one thing (like you thinking that they should have deadlines set even though you don't even know if they have internal deadlines set), giving wrong information about certain things like announcements made by the devs is another (e.g. about the game going to consoles imminently, really lol, I couldn't come up with that if I was on crack). 

 

Do I have concerns about the game, of course I do like anything else I invest in, on the virtual world or in real life. Do I sit and ponder about wildly imaginative conspiracy theories about how they took our money and we won't get our moneys worth ever because they are developing a game not the traditional way? No. I trust the people because they have a good record, they deliver what they promise most of the time and don't have the AAA publisher mentality of releasing a product patching it a couple of times and leaving it to rot in a corner.

Also once again, I am happy for you that you are a developer and I am sure you have some knowledge about the industry but first of all, that doesn't mean all your assumptions are true and second it doesn't make you any better than anyone else nor does it give you the right to talk down on people. Just like you they have opinions too.

I don't know with what kind of mental maturity you thought that it would be a good idea to post this here knowing these forums are full of fanbois/fans/trolls whatever and then acting all surprised about it when they tell you to f-off.

[omgwtfbbq (DayZ) 1069]

heres my advice to you OP: eat shit

 

Also, this is by far the most mature comment on this thread. Hands down.

[louist 163]

Spray cans are easy to put into the game and since you are not privy to the make up of the development team I doubt you understand that concurrent projects are the norm (you say you have worked in development but it is not coming across that way).

Spray cans, whether or not they are easy to put in (and I would argue that the way they work is somewhat complex when compared to most items, as they aren't changing a variable [like food, blood bags, water] and aren't a copy-paste of existing items with a new model [the guns, which many of testing done has shown them to have the same stats-incorrect stats, I might add-as existing weapons], but instead remove an item from the game and replace it with a new one), they clearly weren't tested internally before release. If they had been, the devs would have immediately noticed that the mosin bug.

So that isn't really a good argument on your part.

Edited January 29, 2014 by louist

[captain_morgan 6]

Total bullsh*t topic. Especially your points about crunchtime, I would never i hire developer thinking that is normal, because best development practices would avoid that.

In general your thoughts are too much "straight", there are no universal rules about the things you talk about. Those points can be seen from different angle, supplied by positive arguments and they will all look that the game development is actually promising. You also misinterpret those public sayings about console talks and sh*t, please find another game to play and stop wasting your and community time with writing such posts.

[weedmasta 784]

Spray cans, whether or not they are easy to put in (and I would argue that the way they work is somewhat complex when compared to most items, as they aren't changing a variable [like food, blood bags, water] and aren't a copy-paste of existing items with a new model [the guns, which many of testing done has shown them to have the same stats-incorrect stats, I might add-as existing weapons], but instead remove an item from the game and replace it with a new one), they clearly weren't tested internally before release. If they had been, the devs would have immediately noticed that the mosin bug.

So that isn't really a good argument on your part.

 

They can't weed out all the bugs internally given the time frame and the pressure of the community requesting frequent patches (large or small bugs). That is why they have experimental builds and later stable builds for us to test and report on if we are inclined to do so. There is even a twitter post where someone is telling Dean to stop adding new items and work on bugs and his response is, indirectly quoting "The people working on bugs and the people working on items are not the same people." So yes, his argument is valid although not really put forth the right way, that is, new items doesn't mean less bugs fixed.

[louist 163]

They can't weed out all the bugs internally given the time frame and the pressure of the community requesting frequent patches (large or small bugs). That is why they have experimental builds and later stable builds for us to test and report on if we are inclined to do so. There is even a twitter post where someone is telling Dean to stop adding new items and work on bugs and his response is, indirectly quoting "The people working on bugs and the people working on items are not the same people." So yes, his argument is valid although not really put forth the right way, that is, new items doesn't mean less bugs fixed.

But spray cans represent a new (albeit minor) feature/mechanic, which is exactly the sort of thing you would test internally before publishing. That it was only tested to see if it did indeed spawn a painted variant of the gun is something I find odd. It would only take seconds, from that point, to load and fire the gun, and realize it wasn't working as intended.

At that point you would either fix the bug or delay putting out the feature, which is as easy as not entering the spray can into the loot tables. This isn't a major or necessary part of the game that you would want to publish even if it had bugs, such as the medical system. This is a minor, largely cosmetic feature. A novelty.

[papazombie 25]

Well, this is for dayz is my last prepaid alpha.

I wrote in a past post that I dont like rhe way that dayz is taking and a lot of Fans said:

IT'S AN ALPHA

Well is an alpha but a very expensive alpha. I paid thinking they were to earn a lot of money and game was to eevolve more focus in the core. Last patch was very sad. Just features and nothing intereating.

You may say ITS AN ALPHA and wait like this game stuck or ask to dev team more focus in the game.

[arabatur 4]

THIS IS AN ALPHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

 

 

 

 

 

THE POST IS FINISH

[weedmasta 784]

But spray cans represent a new (albeit minor) feature/mechanic, which is exactly the sort of thing you would test internally before publishing. That it was only tested to see if it did indeed spawn a painted variant of the gun is something I find odd. It would only take seconds, from that point, to load and fire the gun, and realize it wasn't working as intended.

At that point you would either fix the bug or delay putting out the feature, which is as easy as not entering the spray can into the loot tables. This isn't a major or necessary part of the game that you would want to publish even if it had bugs, such as the medical system. This is a minor, largely cosmetic feature. A novelty.

 

It has little priority. I would actually find it odd if they had tested it instead of more important things. Why waste time on a low priority feature, when the community can help test it instead?

[Mopp_94 29]

Lol nah.