byrgesen 1341 Posted January 17, 2014 Hahahahaha. You are not a good player. Full stop. You guys must be awful if everyone you meet with a weapon has tried to kill you. Really awful. I very rarely get seen first, and if I do, I'll duck into cover. I still haven't been KOSed. Let me just say that if you KOS then you deserve to get insta raped. You're annoyed by it, so why do it? It's SO easy to control a situation and let someone go than just kill them. I REALLY want to play with you to see how you play this game. What is your favourite loot run? Where do you hang out on the map? Would like to add its even worse if you are an entire clan and still dont have the upper hand. *how to not kill other people that don't kill other people. And yes, we need devs to help with that. We need them to help with some kind of "solution" to KOS, yes, but not a arcadish point system, which we saw fail over and over again in the mod for almost 2 years.Get creative and come up with a better solution, this is tryed and tested and has failed multible times, in several mods, why keep using it then? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frosti 2165 Posted January 17, 2014 We need them to help with some kind of "solution" to KOS, yes, but not a arcadish point system, which we saw fail over and over again in the mod for almost 2 years.Get creative and come up with a better solution, this is tryed and tested and has failed multible times, in several mods, why keep using it then? Flaws of humanity system from mod has been pointed in previous posts in this thread and also there was suggested solutions and fixes to it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MR DELICIOUS 297 Posted January 17, 2014 We dont need the devs to make up some EZmode indicator system, simply because people dont know how to not kill other people. The incredible irony here is that a stupid autoskinning system to define a "bandit" (something you can't quantify into numbers because there are so many reasons and motives people behave the way they behave in game - vengeance, cold-blooded murder, self-defense etc) would mean that OP and his friends would immediately have a bandit skin. What would that do? It would lock them further into the anal rape cycle of KOS this post was made to "fix". 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
noblue 27 Posted January 17, 2014 it is a problem, but the solution is for people to play differently. Labeling players like that would give bandits a huge disadvantage. It's also against the spirit of the game Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
byrgesen 1341 Posted January 17, 2014 Flaws of humanity system from mod has been pointed in previous posts in this thread and also there was suggested solutions and fixes to it. The "flaw" is the system it self.Thats what ive been trying to say all the way through this thread.No pointbased system, which changes cosmetics, will EVER fix this, developers tryed for almost 2 years in sooooo many different ways and yet, nothing is even close to perfect.Thats gotta mean something. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Areos (DayZ) 106 Posted January 17, 2014 There shouldn't be any distinguishable difference between bandits and survivors except for the way they choose to play the game. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
byrgesen 1341 Posted January 17, 2014 There shouldn't be any distinguishable difference between bandits and survivors except for the way they choose to play the game. One sentence and this guy hit it SPOT ON! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadowjack 254 Posted January 17, 2014 If you're wearing a clown mask, you're a bandit and I will attempt to KoS without question or contact. If you're not wearing a mask, I will watch you if I can to assess what you are doing and make my own determination. If we meet abruptly, I will attempt to detain you (unless you have a clown mask, then you are dead). If the attempt to detain doesn't work.. I will shoot you. No need for tags or indicators :P Our scales are similar. If I don't know you I don't trust you If I cant see your face I trust you less If you have on a clown mask you are a psycho and I will put you out of your misery. I encourage those of you who think you need everything so black and white in a 50 shades of gray world to come up with your scale. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
libertine 351 Posted January 17, 2014 If you take 5 mins to observe somebody from afar, you can quickly get an idea of they're intentions.That is bullshit. This is what i do, and you can follow people for miles and gain no definitive insight into how they act towards other players. Give one example. But just like real life, NOBODY should be forced to a certain look or "sign" based on they're actions, it would remove the tension in player interactions, because then you would know the intention before you even speak to someone. 90% of the fun in DayZ is running into another player and not knowing what to expect.I've said it many times, in the Origins mod, I was shot by guys in survivor clothing and by heroes just as much if no more than bandits. So you would certainly retain a large portion of the tension. Their humanity system was simple, gain humanity for killing bandits, lose it or survivors and heroes. People KOS because they are scared and its easier then trying to interact with another player, its simple as that.I don't want to interact with other players personally, good or bad. I want to survive, and do it on my own. I want to fight, but if i won't kill people for a can a beans when the game doesn't make the case even remotely for it, and im super sneaking and rarely let players see me, then it becomes one boring ass game. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
libertine 351 Posted January 17, 2014 We don't NEED a hero/bandit system. People NEED to learn how to read people "body" language. You know a player is up to no good just by the way he acts. Should stay that way.Please give an example of what your talking about. Theres no body language in this game. Being careful when you don't want to be KOS'd is very common, so people have their guns out and even up when near player heavy areas. Its also a zombie apocalypse. YOU DO NOT know a player is up to know good by watching them 99% of the time. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
libertine 351 Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) But how would you feel if you basicly had a giant sign hovering over your char that said "IM BANDIT!!! I KILLZ PEPS!!"?? No thanks, people should have to figure it out on they're own, not some "flag" mechanic ingame.Right now for PvP'ers, everyone to them has an invisible sign saying "shoot me!". You try "figuring it out" on your own and see if you don't get bored silly. Don't shoot camo/geared people, because they are just being careful in a zombie apoc., don't shoot pantsless guys with masks because they are just having a bit of fun, don't shoot guys with their guns out, because its fucking dangerous and they have every cause to be careful. Don't shoot guys with gas masks because they're protecting themselves from infection. Don't shoot anyone that doesn't harm another player or steal from them. Good....fucking....luck....having fun under those conditions for the long term. Edited January 17, 2014 by Thane 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
libertine 351 Posted January 17, 2014 I don't think you can distinguish. If I put on a hero suit what's to drop me from being a bandit? Hero, bandit, civilian, are you talking 3 pc classes? Pick a side? Now you're creating a completely different game. I think the current plan I've read about more zombie, better loot/zombie respawning scheme and server hop/combat log/ghosting plans will dynamically change the way the game is currently being played in its current bare bones buggy state. A lot of these suggestions and complaints will carry a lot more weight once it reaches beta.With some hopefully subtle form of bandit identification, the game would be like the mod, which brought everyone here, and had bandit skins. The ability to exploit workarounds to the system simple helps maintain the tension from unknown players we have now. Hopefully the other parts of the game will add in enough things to do to satisfy some, but even if they added in a whole other game into this game, how long would you play it. It remains to be seen... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
libertine 351 Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) I'm just spitballing here but what if... Hero players were given "Hero only clothes" e.g Blue hat or shirt, that couldn't be equipped by any neutral or bandit players, the player would choose "hero option" before joining a new game. This would leave the unpredictability when meeting new players. any deviation from the class would remove the "hero items" and makes the player a neutral. any thoughts or expansions? I think the OP has some (not all) good points. And the trailer comparison is funny and true. Go record on some full random public server. It would be bad PR, to be honest, unless you're lucky. But even I as somewhat friendlier (or let's say, I don't KOS) player don't think some weird "Karma mechanic" is gonna cut it. Too much black and white, not giving any people in between leeway. Heck, even heroes could end up with a "magical bandit skin" because those people they want to help try to kill them. No, let's leave this karma / black & white thing out here, at least via some "humanity system". What we need is "squad xml" (search it if it does not ring a bell) or eventually more clothing / customization. That way you can identify individual groups, also medics or bandits, if they wear a red cross or a skull logo perhaps.Broken record time: Its not black and white, not even close, as i learned in the Origins mod, i was shot at by survivors and even heroes just as much as bandits. Edited January 17, 2014 by Thane Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rassad 111 Posted January 17, 2014 Personally I dont think "Forcing" certain clothing is the way to go. It would be better to have Humanity system that restricts certain types of Clothing. Players could choose to simply not wear the clothes that identify them. But if you see a guy wearing a medical outfit, then you may have a little more trust in him, until you find out you just shot his friend, and he is here for revenge. Example: Medic Vest2000+ Humanity20+ Medical Treatment given to others Bandit Vest-2000 Humanity This system could be expanded upon to include different Branches:Hunting Clothing for Hunters,Zombie Slaughterers,Long-term Survivors,Fisherman,Engineers,Pilots,Etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
libertine 351 Posted January 17, 2014 Forcing a certain appearance for any reason is a silly bad idea, do you guys, for example, assume all the people you see on the street with a spiffy mustache to be villains ?Ever been shot by ten different guys with or without a mustache on the street on the same day? Huh. Okay then. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1S1K-Airborne 148 Posted January 17, 2014 Right now for PvP'ers, everyone to them has an invisible sign saying "shoot me!".You try "figuring it out" on your own and see if you don't get bored silly. Don't shoot camo/geared people, because they are just being careful in a zombie apoc., don't shoot pantsless guys with masks because they are just having a bit of fun, don't shoot guys with their guns out, because its fucking dangerous and they have every cause to be careful. Don't shoot guys with gas masks because they're protecting themselves from infection. Don't shoot anyone that doesn't harm another player or steal from them. Good....fucking....luck....having fun under those conditions for the long term. Exactly my point! Well said! I want to shoot bandits. I don't want to shoot heros. There is no mechanic in the game to allow that style of play. If there is some type of small armband identifier, you are NOT going to stand out like a flaming beacon. Quit exaggerating. If you want to keep KOSing with the armband system, YOU CAN STILL DO THAT. NOTHING is stopping you from doing that. But it WILL allow people who want to play as heros, a way to identify heros and not shoot them. Not everyone in this game wants to be a KOSer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
libertine 351 Posted January 17, 2014 This is not an MMORPG. There is no good vs evil. So my answer is NO!!It doesn't have to be good vs. evil. It could be "guy killing people because he believes firmly it will stop the virus and save whats left of humanity" vs. "guy who is a target of those people and finally learned whats up"....with survivors inbetween. The "hero" term should be thrown out completely. The use of "bandit skin" was wrong from the beginning too since it was given from murdering people. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
antonioajc 500 Posted January 17, 2014 Exactly my point! Well said! I want to shoot bandits. I don't want to shoot heros. There is no mechanic in the game to allow that style of play. If there is some type of small armband identifier, you are NOT going to stand out like a flaming beacon. Quit exaggerating. If you want to keep KOSing with the armband system, YOU CAN STILL DO THAT. NOTHING is stopping you from doing that. But it WILL allow people who want to play as heros, a way to identify heros and not shoot them. Not everyone in this game wants to be a KOSer.What are you doing here then? You want to survive? You have to grow some genitalia and spill some blood! :P Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
libertine 351 Posted January 17, 2014 No, stupid idea glad the skins are gone. You cant be deceitful with a bandit skin. Also to easy to manipulate e.g what gives hero skin? Healing players?, because I could be in a bandit squad as medic and get a hero skin just like in the mod.I love how you can customise your clothing and maybe when more clothing is added people could dress to look scary or friendly and thats enough. No, stupid idea glad the skins are gone. You cant be deceitful with a bandit skin. Also to easy to manipulate e.g what gives hero skin? Healing players?, because I could be in a bandit squad as medic and get a hero skin just like in the mod.I love how you can customise your clothing and maybe when more clothing is added people could dress to look scary or friendly and thats enough.You simultaneously complain about the skin then complain about being able to work around it. If you wanted to be without a bandit/murderer arm band or whatever, then you could work at exploit workarounds to continue appearing as a standard survivor guy. It would be just fine if it were not full proof since that would help maintain the unease around other players. There will always be a competition for limited resources too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zollicoffer 200 Posted January 17, 2014 I've said it many times, in the Origins mod, I was shot by guys in survivor clothing and by heroes just as much if no more than bandits. So you would certainly retain a large portion of the tension. Their humanity system was simple, gain humanity for killing bandits, lose it or survivors and heroes. If the skins are something you would just ignore, then why have them at all? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
libertine 351 Posted January 17, 2014 Devs spent a lot of time making clothing so you can dress however you like > nah lets have none of that and lets put people into boxes. The system we had in the mod was already broken like someone said. Coding this properly will be very very difficult if not IMPOSSIBLE and there will always be ways to abuse it like : New spawned bandit looks like normal > kills normals/hero's > gets banditskin (how you lot like to see it) New spawned bandit looks like normal > gets killed by normal > normal that shot bandit out of self-defence gets bandit skin > is now a target for normals AND hero's AND bandits because he shot a normal-LOOKING guy who was gonna kill him. New spawned bandit looks like normal > kills everyone but his first kills will be bandits > gets hero skin > kills bambi who thinks he encountered a "good guy". There is no good or bad in this game there is only SURVIVAL. Its always 100% your own fault if you die ;)Its best NOT to make it 100% full proof anyway. If people are able to get around the system, then that clearly maintains the uneasiness around other players. It doesn't have to be a full skin, just an arm band or cool looking ninja-like face cover. The fact that in the beginning, the arm band or whatever will be taken up by self-defense or whatever, isn't a big deal, its over time were concerned about, unless people are only going to play this game for a couple weeks.... People can "work" off the red arm band by killing [mass] murderers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
libertine 351 Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) Personally I dont think "Forcing" certain clothing is the way to go. It would be better to have Humanity system that restricts certain types of Clothing. Players could choose to simply not wear the clothes that identify them. But if you see a guy wearing a medical outfit, then you may have a little more trust in him, until you find out you just shot his friend, and he is here for revenge. Example: Medic Vest2000+ Humanity20+ Medical Treatment given to others Bandit Vest-2000 Humanity This system could be expanded upon to include different Branches:Hunting Clothing for Hunters,Zombie Slaughterers,Long-term Survivors,Fisherman,Engineers,Pilots,Etc.Zombie vision is human vision, so why wouldn't survivors wear camo too? Edited January 17, 2014 by Thane Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
libertine 351 Posted January 17, 2014 If the skins are something you would just ignore, then why have them at all?The beauty of the system in Origins is that it only nudges us in that direction but doesn't take us all the way. Anyone is still dangerous, but friendly players can have just a bit more confidence about friendly people being friendly, which i believe is FAR more realistic than what we have now. I believe people would largely be tolerant of each other in an apocalypse, short of one seen in The Road. When all that mattered was food gathering and shooting zombies. It doesn't matter whos carrying the weapon as long as they're not missing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
