Third person view removal from SA discussion

[The_Man 393]

After reading all 39 pages now I think everything is clear and we just wait for rocket. Most of the 3rd person user admitted this is a cheat / exploit when you are in a combat ( PVP ), but they still want to keep the view for the landscape and character. As a defender of FPV I prefer to have 3rd person without the currently PVP-cheat and everyone is happy, the only people not happy are spoiled kids who want to see 360° over/through walls while ducked behind a window/wall.

 

The only question is: How is rocket and his team going to fix the 3rd person without having a PVP cheat ?

 

No, we didn't admit it was an exploit/cheat. How can a mechanic that has been in place for over a decade in these games be an exploit or cheat? It was intentionally placed in the game. It works in this engine. It is necessary to immerse yourself into these maps. The only solution is to polish the third person mode to appeal to the first person players. Players like me recognize that people will be using third person to gain advantage and we have fun with that. I like the challenge. All first person players want to do is force us to be stuck in their play style with them. It is a shame for veteran players like me who have been combating against third person in multiplayer Bohemia Interactive games for the past decade. I suppose I can see why you guys want it gone. You're too lazy to learn how to play in third and first person well. You're all probably used to first person only games. I hope Rocket fixes third person. I don't like that you can see through walls. Over walls? Different story. 

[serenityrick 218]

However, in real life. I would be able to peek over the edge to look directly down from the rooftop, in DayZ/Arma you can't do that. Only with 3rd person is that possible

 

But still.. about 6-7 inches of your round head would be sticking up over a flat surface which would be relatively easy to spot if you're scanning rooftops for snipers..

 

It would still be risk/reward for you as a sniper.. perhaps someone simply doesn't notice you.. but at least you're putting forth SOME sort of risk by crouching up to see all around you. At the moment there is no risk. ZERO risk. All reward.

[NexD3xus. 3]

This topic is realy Shit and idea is Shit

 

Please dont remove the Third person view i like it its better than shity 1st person view.

[serenityrick 218]

Its physically impossible to see someone over a wall without exposing yourself, such basic realism shouldn't be left out of any game such as DayZ.

 

 

This is the crux of the argument for me...

 

In a game where you have to figure out your fucking BLOODTYPE in order to give yourself a safe transfusion.. in a game where you have to take vitamins to help stave off disease.. it honestly baffles me that third person view isn't simply nixed completely as an option.

 

You have this ultra realistic/authentic survival experience and then you're also auto-magically able to see over walls and around corners.. It honestly sucks.

 

I have pretty much lost any faith that the devs will nix it completely at this point.. I'm just really hoping that a great community of first player only players will develop so that we can get at least a few full servers that we can join in order to experience the game it was meant to be experienced (in my opinion of course)

[nsane 3]

Can you anti-third person people piss off and let the man attempt to tweak it or wait for fp only servers?

What sense does it make forcing your opinions down every one else's throats?

 

Exactly. What is the number one argument of those who defend KoS and the deathmatch mentality of this game? Freedom of choice and not dictating the way others play this game. They don't want anyone who disagrees with them to force our opinion down their throats; yet when the tables are turned and we want free choice, all they want to do is dictate the way others play this game. You can't have it both ways.

[serenityrick 218]

My point is if you act as the AIs in Dslysexhi's video in a PvP environment, standing still in open fields, walking in formation on open roads or standing exposed along walls, waiting for someone to spot you, you will indeed get shot.

 

ArmA's distances are so vast, that you simply can't spot someone stalking you from behind a corner, tree or roof. The only option you have both in first and third person is to stay in cover or constantly move unpredictably in and between objects. If you're static, you better be covered. 

 

At any point you're exposed to at least 50-100 potential positions and you simply can't control them all, all you can do is minimize your exposure and make yourself a concealed or moving target.

 

I'll give you a prime example of just that happening to me last night (thus why I was all worked up earlier in the thread.. and now I guess, haha)

 

I was in the police building covering my friend who was eating. I was actually IN 1st person looking at the front door so that if anyone came around the corner I could kill them. Now.. the fact that I can use 3rd person in this situation doesn't help me at all. not one iota.

 

On the other hand, someone came by and para-scoped the room we were in without ever exposing himself. He knew exactly where I was (peeking around a corner aiming at the door) and knew exactly where my friend was (right behind me eating).. so what does he do? Despite the fact that I should have ALL OF THE ADVANTAGE in this situation, he puts his M4 on full auto and turns the corner firing exactly where my head is. I didn't even have enough time to float my iron sight anywhere near him before I was just dead.

 

That. Is. Cheap. As. Fuck. Period.

Edited December 30, 2013 by serenityrick

[Jamz 253]

Exactly. What is the number one argument of those who defend KoS and the deathmatch mentality of this game? Freedom of choice and not dictating the way others play this game. They don't want anyone who disagrees with them to force our opinion down their throats; yet when the tables are turned and we want free choice, all they want to do is dictate the way others play this game. You can't have it both ways.

 

Actually thats not quite the same, nobody can stop players from KOS'ing and it's an accepted (if sometimes hated) playstyle. Removing TPV however is forcing players to be unable to use it in any form at all which is the issue.

[serenityrick 218]

The discussion of removing 3rd person view isn't anyone trying to force someone to play a certain way.. it's about making this game the best survival/zombie game possible. 

 

A lot of it doesn't even necessarily have to do PvP either.. once the zombies are numerous and dangerous, it becomes a lot less stressful to move through houses or streets if you can see where they all are without any drawback whatsoever.

 

So it should be discussed as that.. not about what people enjoy playing more but how to make this game as hardcore as Rocket as said he wants to make it. And fpv is the best way for that. Not only does it add tension of not being able to see all the way around your character or over walls or around walls at any given time, it puts every single player on the same playing field.

 

As I mentioned a few posts up... everyone using 3rd person does NOT put everyone on the same playing field. Me using 3rd person in doors guarding a door vs another player scoping me out from the outside using 3rd person puts the advantage into HIS hands.. not mine. Whereas in 1st person view I would clearly have the advantage (as it should be).

 

In my opinion it's broken as fuck for this type of game. 

[tommes 331]

so to sum up all the pro-1st person arguments. You all have ZERO self control, and all of us should be forced into a play style because you all have no self control. 1st person servers will alleviate all issues. BUT because none of you can actually bring yourselves to play in your hardcore-leet mode. everyone needs to be forced... is that about right? I mean really? honestly? really? It truly does seem to come down to this. That is the underlying  argument across the board here. Wow, I am done arguing this because I honestly now know the mechinations behind ALL you 1st person or nothing arguers. You all have left me wanting.

 

You better be done argueing because you're really bad at it. It has nothing to do with the lack of self control. FPV advocates readily give up the perks of having TPV under the condition everyone else does too. You can't just ignore TPV when virtually everybody else is exploiting it's advantages...and those advantages are major. That's why it's considered exploiting by many though it technically isn't.

[Koehler 4]

I like the third person thing. I like seeing my character while walking or running.

[Koehler 4]

I like seeing my character while running or walking. Why remove it?

[tommes 331]

I love this attempt to redefine a feature that's always been part of the engine and readily available to everyone as an unfair cheat and exploit, just because you guys refuse to fill up your own servers, where this feature is disabled for everyone.

 

TPV itself is no exploit. The use of it in PvP combat comes close to something like exploiting and people tend to use terms losely...just as yourself.

And there is no "own servers" or "refusal". There's just not enough populated FPV only servers to be called even remotely satisfying. Reasons have been provided generously in this thread already.

[tommes 331]

I like seeing my character while running or walking. Why remove it?

Why read this fucking thread? Oh, you didn't...

[tommes 331]

Exactly. What is the number one argument of those who defend KoS and the deathmatch mentality of this game? Freedom of choice and not dictating the way others play this game. They don't want anyone who disagrees with them to force our opinion down their throats; yet when the tables are turned and we want free choice, all they want to do is dictate the way others play this game. You can't have it both ways.

 

You're mixing two things here that shouldn't be mixed. Another example of really bad argueing.

Now let's be honest! Wouldn't you love to dictate those evil KoS'ers to not beeing dicks? Wouldn't you love that? Come on! You know you'd love that. You got a hard on right now thinking of it, don't you?

[serenityrick 218]

I like seeing my character while running or walking. Why remove it?

 

I liked having a straight forward GUI on the screen telling me when I was getting low on blood. Why remove it?

 

Because it wasn't realistic.

[gibonez 3633]

I liked having a straight forward GUI on the screen telling me when I was getting low on blood. Why remove it?

 

Because it wasn't realistic.

 

Pretty much anything and everything is prone to being removed or adjusted at this point of the games development.

 

Hopefully all of the faults encountered with third person view are seen and made apparent and it is removed swiftly.

[TimM1983 57]

TPV itself is no exploit. The use of it in PvP combat comes close to something like exploiting and people tend to use terms losely...just as yourself.

And there is no "own servers" or "refusal". There's just not enough populated FPV only servers to be called even remotely satisfying. Reasons have been provided generously in this thread already.

 

You are right. I don't even try to argue these guys anymore. Every TPV defender avoid the real argument, the cheat, watching 360° through the whole map behind a wall. I don't care about veterans and I never played the day z mod and I don't want to force my personal choice of the FPV to anyone. I just want a FAIR TPV and a lot of FPV defenders offered solutions where you see the landscape, your character and stuff but without this damn cheat / exploit.

 

I couldn't care less at the moment, since 3 days I am playing without weapons and medic / support only because PVP is kinda useless with this cheat mechanic ( 3rd person through walls + combat logging ), but I really like the game and I want a solution for everyone. Actually the only selfish player here are the themselves called "veterans" without any clear argument. They just want everything like the last 10 years. They say we are not able to adapt to the third person, but like I said WE WANT 3RD PERSON, WE DON'T WANT THE CHEAT. This is not easy mode guys, in the current state this is just ridiculously and people who defend cheat mechanics are toxic for the user experience.

 

If rocket and his team decide to keep this mechanic I will never argue about that again, never. But right now I sent several mails with screenshots and videos to the team and even got a reply from them they are looking into it. I am an alpha tester and this is my chance to change the 3rd person view into a legit 3rd person because I know forcing 1st person is not realistic we need a solution for everyone.

 

I know I repeat it again and again but most people here just read what they want.

Edited December 30, 2013 by TimM1983

[Manuel Pineiro 22]

So I have stayed out of most of the 3rd Person threads in the past, but this one seems to be picking up a lot of steam.

 

Personally I think we just need seperate servers.  I have considered both sides of this argument for a long while, I have watched opinion videos and the whole nine.

 

What it comes down to for me is the term 'realistic' everyone throws around.  First Person in gaming is not 'realistic' at all, sorry.  Neither is 3rd person.  Fact is, one gives you none of the situational awareness you would have in real life, and the other one gives you too much.  Both of them are bad for trying to present 'realism'.

 

I am a member of the US Army and have civilian shooter training as well.  I spend my weekends playing Airsoft with lots of my Army buddies and civies.  I have been to Afghanistan, and South Korea.  I have trained and played with Korean military and civilians as well.  Fact is... different people have different levels of situational awareness than others.  On the Airsoft field I spot and kill other players with all kinds of subtle methods that they often don't understand and get angry about.  The tip of their muzzle poking around a corner (flagging), dust wafting around a piece of cover from their boots that I notice, the sound and direction of their weapons fire, etc.  All of those things add together to paint an 'overhead' picture of the field or area I am playing at in my mind's eye.  I am keeping track of dozens of angles at once and if any of myself is exposed to which angles and where.  All of this allows me to move fluidly through the 'battle space' and minimize exposure to enemy fire and I often go an entire day of skirmishing without taking a single hit.  Not every time, because no one is that lucky, but it's not a rare happening for me to come out unscathed.

 

In first person on a videogame, you simply cannot have that level of situational awareness.  People can run up next to, or behind you, in ways that would not have been possible in real life.  The nuances of sound, light, and air pressure that I have observed in real life that allows me to make those quick snap shots at someone approaching from behind me, do not exist in a virtual simulation yet.  Perhaps it -is- the existance of 3rd Person that is allowing other players to jump me to the level they do in DayZ but 3rd Person, in my opinion, better allows for more 'authentic' situational awareness.  Seeing 'over' a wall in DayZ to see a zombie on the other side is only 'unrealistic' in that I can 'see' over it.  In real life I am sure that zombie on the other side of the stone wall would be making sounds or otherwise be detectable without a periscope needed.  Also, in real life I can pull myself up to peer over a wall discretely.  I can peer around a corner with just the edge of one eye.  In 1st Person I have to lean around a corner, expose my entire face and shoulder.  Likewise, the small gaps in the mortar of walls, or the gaps in a bush that I can peer through in real life don't exist in a virtual simulation.  All of those details most people haven't had to deal with are lost to people who argue about 'realism'.  Neither view is realistic, but I feel 3rd Person presents a more authentic expression of a real survivor's situational awareness.  These are survivors, not the people who perished already and are the walking dead.  By definition our characters are already a cut above 'average'.

 

As to the argument as a whole...  I can see the stand point of 'making this game better' by removing 3rd Person.  I agree there would be an increase in 'tension' and it would create a more atmospheric effect to the game.  I can see some of the problems it does create in PvP situations.  If 3rd Person was to be removed, I could get behind the community in support of that change.  However, I feel when it comes to survival and normal game play outside of PvP, 3rd Person is a much more 'authentic' point of view that simulates more 'sense' than a locked 1st Person cam.  Seeing as DayZ is a mainly social and 'PvP' game the removal of 3rd Person would not be the worst thing to happen to the game.  Even so, it -is- a comfort level feature, and one that 'new' or 'casual' players might enjoy more.  At the end of the day, this game needs to have customers and make money so that it can become even better for us all.  Why remove something that can be turned into a server setting instead?  Why alienate either side of the fence?

[legolas_xp 13]

This topic is really annoying, every time I see this is the same, people forcing other people to play in FP or talking about the disadvantage of first person or the advantage of the 3rd person,,, most of you apparently want to play FP, go to youtube, go to twich to see some videos and streamers and let me know how many of them play in first person,, let people choose how the want to play, they/we paid the same amount of money that u paid to enjoy the game. FP only servers are coming, so you can go there and play with no "disadvantage",,, but really this need to be removed from discussion,,  :|  :(

[twinturbonet (DayZ) 294]

Okay, so don't force it.  HOWEVER!  Have it where you can't see other players or zombies if you are in third person.  

[Diggydug (DayZ) 331]

Okay, so don't force it.  HOWEVER!  Have it where you can't see other players or zombies if you are in third person.  

 

 

If they did that effectively, I'd actually really like that. 

[twinturbonet (DayZ) 294]

If they did that effectively, I'd actually really like that. 

I wouldn't mind it either.  That way, I can run in town without having some sniper prone'd on top of a building watching me.  We can all be happy :)

Edited December 30, 2013 by twinturbonet

[gibonez 3633]

If they did that effectively, I'd actually really like that. 

 

Thats the thing aside from locking in the camera from the front I really do not see how they can fix third person view.

 

I would have absolutely no problem if they fix it I just find it highly unlikely.

 

How would you feel about the camera being locked behind the player near the feet ? This way you cant see over cover but can still see your player but cant see around corners either.

[xX_fr0st-w0lf_Xx (DayZ) 343]

Fix it or remove it.

 

I'd be astonished if they left it the way it is. 

[tilltler123 1]

Right now I think TPV NEEDS to stay in. there are too many glitches in first person right now, I this one affects thrid person users too, but its the main reason I dont use first person, when you move certain ways, ADS or not, your camera clips into some part of the player model almost completely blocking your view, which could be disastrous in combat