Less ammo = more KOS

[mercules 1290]

A-fucking-men. At least someone else realizes him for what he is. Nothing more than someone that can throw words together in a fashion that merely gives an illusion of actual intelligence. What is most comedic about him, is that he had the audacity to call others stubborn and thickheaded. Pot calling the kettle black.

Wonder what he'll whip together for you. Rofl.

As I said the posting typically takes one tiny aspect of what he sees and then creates a very sterile argument that ignores any other variables but instead goes "X + Y =/= Z" which is in fact true, but the situation is not X +Y so really his argument turns out to be starting from an invalid premise to begin with. This makes it sound reasonable until you realize that what he is discussing is not taking place in the vacuum he is talking about. He also tends to create arguments that are False Dichotomy. Either it's A or it B ignoring that there are additional nuances inbetween. 

Gear degradation won't stop KoS. Less Ammo More KoS. These are ignoring each other and the other factors that will come into play and then are very binary as to how he thinks it will be. Discouraging some KOS to him is not worth the effort since it didn't stop it all. Everyone understands it can't ever stop it all and we don't want it to. We want it to be a harder choice for some so that there IS some choice.

1. More threatening zombies

2. slower looting process making you actually search

3. less high end gear

4. gear degradation

These all will have some affect on KoS and without knowing specifics it is hard to say what effect but they will change the game. If we study them logically we can see that in combination they would make me less likely to shoot in general. A gunfight might attract the wrong sort of attention and that loot I want requires me to run all over this room checking under the bed and opening cupboards. The food I was hoping the guy I shot had was ruined by the shots and so now I've used one of my few bullets to no avail and still need to take the time to loot the house before the zombies show up and I need to waste more. This sort of scenario looks like it might be common, not sure. If it is that would discourage some people from engaging targets they don't have to, AKA KoS. 

 

Edited October 31, 2013 by Mercules

[beavis_5000 111]

I agree Ozelot is hard headed, very stubborn in his opinions and is seemingly pretty rude sometimes lol but he does bring up a good point on whether or not less ammo, degrading shoes and etc will slow down extreme PvP and KoS.

 

I guess we really wont know until comes out and we know the other dynamics of the game. I think it would be of great benefit for the SA if we can stay on topic and discuss this while keeping personal issues out.

 

For now the we can only make opinons based off the mod. And imo if you put way less ammo and degrading shoes in the mod as is it could possibly increase PvP and KoS. And i think the only difference between a mod with less ammo and degrading shoes and the current mod is a less ammo mod would leave fresh spawns defensless against spawn killers and allow even more domination from clans and teams.

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

rofl

 

if all I do is not shoot anyone than I won't ever have more than a few rounds. shooting people means I have a chance to find bullets for my gun on my body.

 

I'm going to use EVERY round I have on people's headcases because it's the most economic way.

 

If all else fails and there are so few weapons and ammo left that no one can arm up, than it will just resort to KOS melee style.

what makes you think other players would have the ammo you need ???

 

personaly i think your more likely to waste your bullets KoSing hoping to find replacements then you gain.

 

but feel free to continue to be part of the DayZ KoS problem.. sounds like your not interested in a solution anyways..

[cik 2]

People are not going to want to KOS any less just because there are less weapons and bullets laying around...

Play on a server that has decent randonly generated missions, and ammo becomes a non-issue. Period.

[colekern 1364]

rofl

 

if all I do is not shoot anyone than I won't ever have more than a few rounds. shooting people means I have a chance to find bullets for my gun on my body.

 

I'm going to use EVERY round I have on people's headcases because it's the most economic way.

 

If all else fails and there are so few weapons and ammo left that no one can arm up, than it will just resort to KOS melee style.

 

 

Yeah, because everyone thinks like you. 

 

If any of you guys have seen me on the DayZ forums before you'll know that I'm a pretty laid back guy. But Ozelot, you seriously piss me off.

 

You come on the DayZ forums with the biggest ego I've ever seen and treat everyone who says anything that you don't agree with like crap. You think that the only people here who are smart are those that think exactly like you. You are the biggest, most worthless piece of crap on this forum I have ever seen.You post a thread that's supposed to be a discussion and then bash anyone that doesn't agree with you. You treat everyone else like a complete idiot, and completely ignore the fact that maybe, just maybe you might be wrong.

 

if you thnk about it for ten seconds instead of being stubborn and refusing to see different options. I'd say your problem is just a refusal to be wrong.

 Exhibit A.

 

We've given you tons of reasons why it could work yet no matter what you completely ignore every point that's made. You're blinded by your massive ego. Take a look at what you say for two seconds and try to apply that to yourself. You constantly complain about KOS and make "discussions" (which are horribly one-sided) about the topic yet you haven't even given one good way to reduce KOS. You're more worthless than Gooogle, because at the very least he had suggestions.

 

So shut. your. mouth.

Edited November 1, 2013 by colekern

[mercules 1290]

So... On the topic of bullet rarity affecting PvP. 

I've played some Battle Royal lately. It's an interesting mod, it is definitely not DayZ. However it does illustrate the problems with shooting when you have a lack of ammo. The whole game is designed to be a PvP experience that takes place over 90 minutes of time. You are forced into smaller and smaller areas as the time goes on and you start with nothing. 24 players start in a circle around 24 backpacks and you can run for the middle or run away. IN the middle are backpacks and in them is a map and then a couple different random loadouts. One might have a shotgun, or a PDW, or a revolver, or a machete, or it might have nothing but food and drink or medical gear or binoculars. You are often forced to defend yourself with a pistol with 6 shots. So there are times when you see someone off to your right and he has a gun, and you have a gun and you have to stop yourself from shooting at him because at that range you probably won't kill him, you will probably wound each other and you will use up both your ammo then you will be helpless. So you hold your fire for when you really need it.

 

Eventually you might find a rifle of some sort and if lucky find a clip with it. Again you see someone and instead of blasting you try to close in and make sure the shot is good and clean but the whole time you are giving them a chance to notice you. I ended up with an M1SE1 Tan ACOG in one game. 20 round clip means you BET I used it only when I had a good shot. Shot a guy for his truck, wounded another guy which chased him off and lacking ammo I didn't bother to follow him, I wasn't going to run 600M for a chance to finish him off and then have to run 600 meters back. Sadly in that game the blue cirlce took a major shift and left me well outside it's area when I had gambled on still being in it when I went into a barracks to find more DMR ammo and maybe a back up gun. used all my SD rounds on the zombies, went to grab guns and ammo in the rooms and the shift happened. I then had zombies spawning inside with me, one knocked me out and it was all over.


So even in a game that is all about PvP when you end up lacking ammo there are times you don't use what little you have
 

[kingochaos 131]

It wont stop PvP... it may reduce KoS, and make it like the "good ole days" of dayz... where people buddy up, so they can shoot you in the back o the head when you are covering a door, or looting or such... but with melee weapons yah wont need to waste a single bullet...o  course this is why KoS spiralled out o control. And it became a fools errand to buddy up with some one you didnt know. Its what made yer paranoid and made the game great.

 

 scarcity o resources through out human history... has never led to a reduction in competetion for said resources.. and it wont in a game either.

[h4yw1r3 64]

The only issue I personally might have with low ammo spawn would be in the lack of a good melee system. It'd get kind of boring to me eventually if the SA turned into a melee game, but decent melee gameplay weren't developed for it.  So I'm hoping we get more than just an awkward looking chop attack.

Edited November 1, 2013 by H4YW1R3

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

The only issue I personally might have with low ammo spawn would be in the lack of a good melee system. It'd get kind of boring to me eventually if the SA turned into a melee game, but decent melee gameplay weren't developed for it.  So I'm hoping we get more than just an awkward looking chop attack.

i'd be bored faster if its like Dayz2017, were basicly everty building is empty cept rusty cans..

 

dayz becomes a eastern european real estate viewing sim at that point...

 

im not intersted in searching hundreds of buildings to find a single item..sure thats hardcore for some, but at that point Dayz isnt even fun then..

 

and if the game aint fun im not playing it regardless of how hardcore it is...

[broguenz 333]

Will definitely make shooting people who shoot at you potentially more rewarding.
Unless that was his last bullet, that one that blew off your knee cap.

[beavis_5000 111]

So... On the topic of bullet rarity affecting PvP. 

I've played some Battle Royal lately. It's an interesting mod, it is definitely not DayZ. However it does illustrate the problems with shooting when you have a lack of ammo. The whole game is designed to be a PvP experience that takes place over 90 minutes of time. You are forced into smaller and smaller areas as the time goes on and you start with nothing. 24 players start in a circle around 24 backpacks and you can run for the middle or run away. IN the middle are backpacks and in them is a map and then a couple different random loadouts. One might have a shotgun, or a PDW, or a revolver, or a machete, or it might have nothing but food and drink or medical gear or binoculars. You are often forced to defend yourself with a pistol with 6 shots. So there are times when you see someone off to your right and he has a gun, and you have a gun and you have to stop yourself from shooting at him because at that range you probably won't kill him, you will probably wound each other and you will use up both your ammo then you will be helpless. So you hold your fire for when you really need it.

 

Eventually you might find a rifle of some sort and if lucky find a clip with it. Again you see someone and instead of blasting you try to close in and make sure the shot is good and clean but the whole time you are giving them a chance to notice you. I ended up with an M1SE1 Tan ACOG in one game. 20 round clip means you BET I used it only when I had a good shot. Shot a guy for his truck, wounded another guy which chased him off and lacking ammo I didn't bother to follow him, I wasn't going to run 600M for a chance to finish him off and then have to run 600 meters back. Sadly in that game the blue cirlce took a major shift and left me well outside it's area when I had gambled on still being in it when I went into a barracks to find more DMR ammo and maybe a back up gun. used all my SD rounds on the zombies, went to grab guns and ammo in the rooms and the shift happened. I then had zombies spawning inside with me, one knocked me out and it was all over.


So even in a game that is all about PvP when you end up lacking ammo there are times you don't use what little you have

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would bet most players with only 6 shots in a revolver would still try to go in for a kill in regular DayZ. In Battle Royale they might hold back because they have the bigger scheme of winning in mind.

 

For example, player has a revolver with 6 shots in regular DayZ, sees another player, thinks here is my chance for a kill and goes in with no real consequence if he dies because he can just respwn and with no real loss.

 

In Battle Royle, if he tries to go in for that kill but dies then he loses and its game over for him and he cant even get back in the server until next game. So he suffers a loss and he cant play on that server for awhile. Definately enough reason for a competitve PvP player to hold back on a kill.

 

imo, in DayZ's current state, you could take out 90% of weapons and ammo and allow unarmed players to Karate Chop and it still wouldnt slow down the "kill everything you see" mentality or PvP much. We would just have players everywhere tryng to Karate Chop eachother. And the less weapons and ammo would just make it easier for those who have it to kill those who dont.

 

Devs shouldnt be focused on slowing down PvP, they should focus on slowing down the "Kill everything in sight" mentality. Im not sure how they can do that but the easiest answeres I can think of are 1) Give them a reason not to kill, 2) Give them something to kill besides other players, 3) Give them something to do besides kill.

 

Of course in DayZ there are zombies to kill and plenty of other things to do besides kill and it doesnt make much difference. The reason why I believe is when people get into a gun fight on DayZ it gives them a rush. They need to put something in the game tht can give them a similar rush. Maybe the answer lies in the zombies?

 

Just some more of my thoughts once again based on the current version of the mod.There very well could be other aspects of the SA combined with less ammo and degrading shoes that could reduce the kill everything mentality.

Edited November 1, 2013 by electricfuneral

[broguenz 333]

So... On the topic of bullet rarity affecting PvP. 

 

etc.

 

 

"In Battle Royle, if he tries to go in for that kill but dies then he loses and its game over for him and he cant even get back in the server until next game." 

 

How long is a game? 

It sounds like an interesting mod and I'd prefer a game that feels less like a death match with inconveniences rather than experiences along the way.

I don't see it being possible to achieve completely though. 

[mercules 1290]

i'd be bored faster if its like Dayz2017, were basicly everty building is empty cept rusty cans..

 

dayz becomes a eastern european real estate viewing sim at that point...

 

im not intersted in searching hundreds of buildings to find a single item..sure thats hardcore for some, but at that point Dayz isnt even fun then..

 

and if the game aint fun im not playing it regardless of how hardcore it is...

 

Don't worry, none of us with hold you down, stick a mouse in your hand, and force you to play.

[mercules 1290]

How long is a game? 

It sounds like an interesting mod and I'd prefer a game that feels less like a death match with inconveniences rather than experiences along the way.

I don't see it being possible to achieve completely though. 

 

 

Game takes 90 minutes tops. If there is not just one person alive before then everyone dies and no one wins. ;)

Getting into a game is the slower part. Only a few servers so far and you have to wait till a new game starts and then only 24 people can join. There is a ton of people trying to join. 

[beavis_5000 111]

I would say Battle Royale itself would help slow down the kill everything that moves mentality in regular DayZ because all the extreme PvP'ers would go play that. I dont see it working out that way tho because I feel most KoS'ers will be afraid of the competition and stick with the easier kills (Fresh Spanws, friendlies, non-PvP'ers and etc) in regular DayZ where they arent literally forced to kill or be killed.

[DemonGroover 8836]

I think the issue of KoS will be reduced somewhat with limited ammo.

 

If you have 3 bullets in your gun you arent going to spray someone the moment you see them.  You will have to assess the situation and possibly get into a position where one bullet is all it takes.

 

I dont know how you can conclude that KoS will increase - most people i have come across take a lot of bullets to get one to hit in.   You may find that players continue to play the way they do in the mod, but i dont think that the mod tactics are going to work very well in the SA. 

 

And this is even without taking into consideration of the increase zombie numbers, their new pathfinding and ability to run indoors. 

[beavis_5000 111]

You may find that players continue to play the way they do in the mod, but i dont think that the mod tactics are going to work very well in the SA. 

 

And this is even without taking into consideration of the increase zombie numbers, their new pathfinding and ability to run indoors. 

 

 

 

Yeah I am baseing all opinions off the current version of the mod.

 

It really depends on what exactly they do with the ammo.

 

It could increase PvP becuase people will kill others in hope of them having ammo since it will be hard to find anywhere else. So it would be an increase in inland PvP but decrease coastal PvP between new spawns.

 

It may even make those who normally wouldnt shoot on sight to decide to shoot on sight in hopes for ammo?

 

Still to many unknown variables to tell honestly but imo it very well could increase PvP (based off the mod).

 

I defiantely agree with this above statement in the quote. I think this is the SA we all hope for.

Edited November 2, 2013 by electricfuneral

[AfterShave 140]

I for one will preserve my shameless banditry

[boneboys 7988]

What happens when we have less than zero ammo, will this also result in more kills ?

[Aporis 422]

I for one will preserve my shameless banditry

Shameless banditry = interaction with other players, forcing them to do stuff, robbing them etc rather than just KoS right?

[joe_mcentire 2073]

What happens when we have less than zero ammo, will this also result in more kills ?

"The Humping Kills" - A DayZ Novel

[DemonGroover 8836]

With less ammo and the possibility of a victim's ammo being damaged if you shoot them perhaps highway robbery will be the new norm.

 

With the new option to handcuff someone and then steal their stuff perhaps killing someone wont be the only choice we have.

 

Of course there is nothing stopping you from killing them afterwards.

[Shadow Man 142]

I think it's hilarious that people think ammo rarity is going to reduce KOS at all, if anything it will increase it.

 

People are not going to want to KOS any less just because there are less weapons and bullets laying around, all that has happened is you have reduced the number of weapons, not the desire to kill.

 

If ammo is extremely rare than I will make doubly sure to kill anyone I see so I can collect the ammo that they have been collecting on their body. It'd be so much easier and less risky than trying to scavenge ammo continually. and chances are that if ammo is rare laying about, than players will be more likely to become large deposits of bullets, as they will pick more of it up knowing it's rare.

 

At least you're actually looting the bodies now.

[strongtent 74]

Not everything is so one sided, I can tell you that much from looking at the dev-blog alone.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Strongtent

[Vicco 123]

Oz is only right about less ammo not changing KOS MENTALITY.  But it will definitely reduce KOS deaths.  Simple logic. 

I think that's what scares him.  Mentality adjustment.   He's just resisting change, and maybe scared the game won't suit his chosen play style.

 

The devs have many tools to make Oz's life miserable if he won't adjust to THEIR reality.

Just a few tools that the dev can employ, in combination with reduced ammo: 

 

1. Nerf bullet damage on humans.

2. Real penalties for KOS.

3. Areas with no "friendly fire."

4. Despawn  ammo on a body upon death.

blah, blah.

 

There's no reason to think the SA will bear much similarity to the mod.  It's a new game. 

The game programmers can do as they wish.

They don't have to ELIMINATE KOS.  Just make life difficult for those who engage in it.

Of course those who love KOS style play don't like that.  Perfectly understandable.

 

BTW, a baddass attitude from somebody saying they like to kill on sight is just that - attitude.

Makes the person look like a bigmouth braggart - unless he's Shosho doing bandit school.

He really IS badass.

I enjoy Oz's KOS posts, because they engender thoughtful conversation.

So I just assume that's his only purpose for making them.

Any other interpretation lends itself to hilarity.