Bringing a sense of value to players which lose their loot.

[mazeash@mail.com 73]

Q: If someone is going to be robbed of all their items, why would they surrender? Is there any difference between being a fresh spawn and getting all your items stolen?
This is currently the main design issue being dealt with. How to give a character who just lost all their items a sense of value. [source]

 

I can think of a number of different 'perks' that could be applied to characters, based upon the total time alive/the different situations they have been in etc, which could answer this issue.

 

So this first example is obvious enough when you think about it, but I thought of it only because of my personal background in Psychology. Effectively, desensitization. If you are in any situation which would provoke an emotional/physical/biological/psycho-biological effect often enough, you will most likely become desensitized to it on some level. This effect becomes especially apparent in repeated high intensity situations, and (although only certain historical events have come close) even more so when a person is faced with an ongoing, life changing/traumatic situation. Adapt or die is probably the most pertinent explanation within the games context. So if we take something like the 'fear/shock' system used in DayZ mod, and imagine that at the beginning of a characters life they are very highly prone to fear/shock as a result of confrontations with Z's, low food, blood or player encounters. Then consider the level or normality that would come as a result of these stressful situations, the fear/shock factor would be decreased. In DayZ SA, this could mean that a player may get a case of the shakes if found in a difficult situation and still a relatively new character, and this would gradually decrease in severity or occurrence; the player in effect becomes 'wiser'.

 

This idea of time/situation-based developments in a characters ability to cope with Chernarus could be a door opener. Things like the speed/efficiency of loading or cleaning a weapon could (as it would) improve over time, dressing wounds could become slightly more effective depending on how often the character has been wounded, food preparation could become easier; with a characters first attempts at cooking a certain meal perhaps taking longer to cook safely and gradually becoming a little faster. I suppose these could be considered as skills, but as they aren't bound by xp points or levels, and are more reliant on characters' individual experiences they do (IMO) fall into a different category. Additionally, the potential for players to 'skill farm' to improve these effects would not be such an issue in this game, because the importance of items, player health and everything else is so high; who wants to waste all their food in one go, or risk being killed by Z's to reduce their proclivity to shit themselves?

 

One other point that may have been overlooked is that older characters may well have inoculations for certain illnesses in game, that's got to be worth carrying on for I would say. On this same note, I can't say I've read anything pertaining to the way the illness system will work EXACTLY, but I'm going to go ahead and assume (hope) that there would be some less dangerous illness's around (flu for example) that would not necessarily kill a character, but may cause certain symptoms temporarily. The benefit of such illnesses would be that the character would (presumably) create anti-bodies that obviously stick around for some time after overcoming an illness, worth sticking around for too I think.

 

Just some food for thought ;-)

 

 

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

In the SA, you will be able to find (although I think it'll be rare-ish) vaccines for certain illnesses/diseases.

 

That means if you have a character that has found and been vaccinated against certain things it/he will become quite valuable to you.

[colekern 1364]

I don't really like the psychology-bonus-thingamabob, but I do like the inoculation thing. Some ideas the devs were throwing around were carrying more weight.

[creeperbane 26]

YOu wouldn't be able to skill farm with food anyways right? the whole diet thing, you would up-chuck your guts out and that would NOT help survival.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

YOu wouldn't be able to skill farm with food anyways right? the whole diet thing, you would up-chuck your guts out and that would NOT help survival.

No.  You'll just become fat or belimic .

 

Either way there'll be no benefit to just munching on food all day.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Fraggle

[terrvik 2409]

In the SA, you will be able to find (although I think it'll be rare-ish) vaccines for certain illnesses/diseases.

 

Really? This I have totally missed! Sounds great.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Really? This I have totally missed! Sounds great.

Yup.  ATM I think there's 8 different illneses/diseases, some more serious than others.  You'll be able to treat them with the correct antibiotics (once you've figured out what is wrong with you from the symptoms) or if you're lucky you'll be able to vaccinate yourself against them.

 

It'll be more of an issue for long-term survivors, as will diet etc.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Fraggle

[terrvik 2409]

Yup.  ATM I think there's 8 different illneses/diseases, some more serious than others.  You'll be able to treat them with the correct antibiotics (once you've figured out what is wrong with you from the symptoms) or if you're lucky you'll be able to vaccinate yourself against them.

 

It'll be more of an issue for long-term survivors, as will diet etc.

 

The medical mumbo jumbo I knew about, the diet as well. But the vaccination bit was new info for me and I like it a lot.

[enforcer1975 1111]

Yup.  ATM I think there's 8 different illneses/diseases, some more serious than others.  You'll be able to treat them with the correct antibiotics (once you've figured out what is wrong with you from the symptoms) or if you're lucky you'll be able to vaccinate yourself against them.

 

It'll be more of an issue for long-term survivors, as will diet etc.

 

And how do we dead with the deathmatchers who could't care less about living long? They would pose a problem once they have found a weapon or got lucky and killed a naive survivor who had one. I hope they think about people dying too often, too. A lot of the players who have a survival goal rather than confusing DayZ with an all out shooter would try to keep their life as long as possible so what kind of "vaccine" do they have against them?

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

 A lot of the players who have a survival goal rather than confusing DayZ with an all out shooter would try to keep their life as long as possible so what kind of "vaccine" do they have against them?

Well none really.  DayZ started out as a bit of a social experiment and it still is.

 

Deans said many times that he's not going to force a certain playstyle or punish others, that's what a sandbox game is all about.

 

Imo though the SA will change the way people play DayZ, they'll have to change because it'll be a very different experience.  The environment itself will play a much larger part in the game and there will be a lot more to do in terms of content so peeps that deathmatch out of pure boredom will at least have something else to do.  

 

I'm not going to get into the whole KOS thing though it's been discussed (and still is) to death and for me personally I've never even seen it as a problem, it's just another part of the game.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Fraggle

[Mos1ey 6301]

If you're robbed, as well as the fact that they probably won't take all of your items, you'd probably be left with most of your tool belt items and maybe your backpack, you also may not want to lose your position on the map.

 

I can think of quite a few reasons why it would be better not to die.

[m.w. vindicator 880]

As someone who likes to roleplay to a degree, I always prefer my characters live.  

[Wayze 549]

Q: If someone is going to be robbed of all their items, why would they surrender? Is there any difference between being a fresh spawn and getting all your items stolen?

This is currently the main design issue being dealt with. How to give a character who just lost all their items a sense of value. [source]

 

I can think of a number of different 'perks' that could be applied to characters, based upon the total time alive/the different situations they have been in etc, which could answer this issue.

 

So this first example is obvious enough when you think about it, but I thought of it only because of my personal background in Psychology. Effectively, desensitization. If you are in any situation which would provoke an emotional/physical/biological/psycho-biological effect often enough, you will most likely become desensitized to it on some level. This effect becomes especially apparent in repeated high intensity situations, and (although only certain historical events have come close) even more so when a person is faced with an ongoing, life changing/traumatic situation. Adapt or die is probably the most pertinent explanation within the games context. So if we take something like the 'fear/shock' system used in DayZ mod, and imagine that at the beginning of a characters life they are very highly prone to fear/shock as a result of confrontations with Z's, low food, blood or player encounters. Then consider the level or normality that would come as a result of these stressful situations, the fear/shock factor would be decreased. In DayZ SA, this could mean that a player may get a case of the shakes if found in a difficult situation and still a relatively new character, and this would gradually decrease in severity or occurrence; the player in effect becomes 'wiser'.

 

This idea of time/situation-based developments in a characters ability to cope with Chernarus could be a door opener. Things like the speed/efficiency of loading or cleaning a weapon could (as it would) improve over time, dressing wounds could become slightly more effective depending on how often the character has been wounded, food preparation could become easier; with a characters first attempts at cooking a certain meal perhaps taking longer to cook safely and gradually becoming a little faster. I suppose these could be considered as skills, but as they aren't bound by xp points or levels, and are more reliant on characters' individual experiences they do (IMO) fall into a different category. Additionally, the potential for players to 'skill farm' to improve these effects would not be such an issue in this game, because the importance of items, player health and everything else is so high; who wants to waste all their food in one go, or risk being killed by Z's to reduce their proclivity to shit themselves?

 

One other point that may have been overlooked is that older characters may well have inoculations for certain illnesses in game, that's got to be worth carrying on for I would say. On this same note, I can't say I've read anything pertaining to the way the illness system will work EXACTLY, but I'm going to go ahead and assume (hope) that there would be some less dangerous illness's around (flu for example) that would not necessarily kill a character, but may cause certain symptoms temporarily. The benefit of such illnesses would be that the character would (presumably) create anti-bodies that obviously stick around for some time after overcoming an illness, worth sticking around for too I think.

 

Just some food for thought ;-)

Your idea is very similar to what I wrote a few days ago:

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/147970-character-value-skillsystem-statistic/

 

The problem is (besides the fact that people don't like the idea) that the degree between being overpowered and having insignificant advantages is very hard to get. If the "skills" you earn are things you simply don't need necessarly for surviving or doing special things (like repairing a heli ^^) the players won't even bother. If they die a few times they get used to it and don't care about these sideeffects anymore. However if the "skills" are powerful you will have an huge advantage in the game (it wouldn't bother me) which some players will not like.

But in my opinion that is ridicilous, because why wouldn't I be kind of overpowered? If I have a better weapon I am overpowered anyway. What will we do against this? And this will even change dramaticly in DayZ, because if someone has a weapon at all he has an huge advantage against most of the other players (because they simply have no weapon with ammo).

 

I like the idea, but it is not very knew and was even suggested by Dean himself.

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

I love it. It's like levelling but in reverse. So presumably most people would become fully desensitized and reach the maximum "skill" for that action. For me, DayZ needs to become more nuanced, and more desperate. Right now, it's too easy to just kill yourself with no consequence and cure your infection, just have your friend pick you up. To me, it's actually becoming kind of lame for that very reason. There's nothing to really work for in the game. Your life means very little because you never really have to consider any kind of consequence other than loosing your gear.

 

I want it to mean something when I've survived for 70 days in the woods, hunting animals, crafting traps and alarms, and carefully stashing gear around the map. Maybe helping the occasional bambi. By this time, I've killed many men. There were times when I was hunted. To this day, I am not secure. I live as a nomad, using the bushy fingers of the woods as concealment. My beard is long and scraggly. Getting shot at doesn't even spook me anymore. My diet has been steady and the long miles I've walked have made my legs lean; my lungs gulp all the harder for air. I am more alive than ever before. I can fix an engine in about two minutes flat. I've taught myself to treat basically any wound one might encounter; I can even do basic surgery, and my sutures always hold. I've learned to disinfect everything thoroughly and I've even managed to keep a supply of antibiotics on me for the last 30 days...

 

But now I've stopped on a dirt road. Four men are approaching me with guns trained.

 

"Put your hands up old timer, or we'll kill you!" 

 

Now imagine if all those little talents deteriorated after death. Think about the situation - I die, lose all my gear, and a good deal of the knowledge that I have appreciated in this lifetime? Or do I surrender and hope that maybe they'll just rob me and leave me with my life? If they leave me with my life, then I can still use those skills. Sure, I might lose my gear, but if I die then I lose it just the same.

 

So the guy tells me to drop my stuff. So I go into my gear and slip one of the the antibiotics and a knife into my pocket, then I right click on the a time bomb that I crafted about 50 days ago, start the timer for 60 seconds, and throw the bag on the ground. As he's going through it and marveling at what amounts to all of my worldly possessions, I pull out the knife, stab the guy next to me right in the face, and sprint up over a ridge. Suddenly an explosion rings out, and I can hear men groaning in agony. One of them got a round through my arm on the way up, but I quickly pull a bandage out of my hoodie and wrap it up. I'll have to remove the bullet later, once I find some new forceps...

 

 

These are the kinds of situations that I want from DayZ. I want to fight tooth and nail because I actually have some incentive to survive for all those "dayz." Otherwise, It just feels kind of... pointless.

 

Edited September 20, 2013 by SalamanderAnder

[enforcer1975 1111]

Yeah but with a known skill system like you described the possibility that players kill you because it's fun especially when it's visible that you are a "long timer" just to ruin a players progress without second thoughts and without having any profit from it.

[Wayze 549]

Yeah but with a known skill system like you described the possibility that players kill you because it's fun especially when it's visible that you are a "long timer" just to ruin a players progress without second thoughts and without having any profit from it.

But if you want certain things you could need the skills of those people. Repairing your car or crafting some things for you.

I think it would certainly improve player interaction. And players who play just to kill other won't enjoy the game. In SA you won't just find a weapon and go on player hunt. That was the mod.

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

Yeah but with a known skill system like you described the possibility that players kill you because it's fun especially when it's visible that you are a "long timer" just to ruin a players progress without second thoughts and without having any profit from it.

 

 

Okay? And? That's why you have to struggle to survive. That's the whole point of it being a game. You have to play it and become skilled to develop your story. And even then, death still has no real life repercussions. You should really just let it go as it is a game and ultimately a waste of time. You rarely say anything that makes much sense.  :emptycan:  Be gone troll.

Edited September 21, 2013 by SalamanderAnder

[Vaz (DayZ) 0]

Why are people saying stuff like tazers aren't authentic or whatever in the country?

It is a realistic game, but it isn't exactly like real life, in real life you can open gates without breaking a leg, or jump a metre or two without dying instantly and in real life you can't build walls just by opening the inventory and clicking plywood.

 

I think something like a tazer, a tranquilizer rifle (a bit like a sniper, but due to it being a dart projectile, very inaccurate so as not to be overpowered), maybe a baseball bat function that will just club a survivor over the head and knock them out for a few minutes leaving you enough time to be on your way

[Michaelvoodoo25 3120]

I like this! Makes sense to be more profficient at things the more you do it!

[enforcer1975 1111]

Okay? And? That's why you have to struggle to survive. That's the whole point of it being a game. You have to play it and become skilled to develop your story. And even then, death still has no real life repercussions. You should really just let it go as it is a game and ultimately a waste of time. You rarely say anything that makes much sense.  :emptycan:  Be gone troll.

 

So does your story...you wouldn't be alive in DayZ to do that. :rolleyes:

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

Yeah but with a known skill system like you described the possibility that players kill you because it's fun especially when it's visible that you are a "long timer" just to ruin a players progress without second thoughts and without having any profit from it.

exactly, the more important u make the players character the more the grieving KoSers will just continue KoSing, knowing they are taking not only loot but all that time sunk into a character aswell..

 

in fact your just adding to the reasons why KoS will still be a huge issue.

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

Well none really.  DayZ started out as a bit of a social experiment and it still is.

 

Deans said many times that he's not going to force a certain playstyle or punish others, that's what a sandbox game is all about.

 

Imo though the SA will change the way people play DayZ, they'll have to change because it'll be a very different experience.  The environment itself will play a much larger part in the game and there will be a lot more to do in terms of content so peeps that deathmatch out of pure boredom will at least have something else to do.  

 

I'm not going to get into the whole KOS thing though it's been discussed (and still is) to death and for me personally I've never even seen it as a problem, it's just another part of the game.

im going to completly disagree with you on the SA making players play differently..

 

given how the player base has eroded done into a DM fest, i see that exact same scenario shifting into SA within the first few weeks (after the initial shiny newness wears off).

 

people simply wont care about any inconveinence like disease, or any other mechanic Dean thinks will  "add to SA'.. if u get into a situation that suks, you'll just find a Z , and respawn..

 

i have ZERO faith this games community can come back its early days play style..zero faith indeed.

[bibbish 49]

Yup.  ATM I think there's 8 different illneses/diseases, some more serious than others.  You'll be able to treat them with the correct antibiotics (once you've figured out what is wrong with you from the symptoms) or if you're lucky you'll be able to vaccinate yourself against them.

 

It'll be more of an issue for long-term survivors, as will diet etc.

I hope a clear distinction is made between viral and bacterial diseases.Mainly because I like things to be accurate.  

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

im going to completly disagree with you on the SA making players play differently..

 

given how the player base has eroded done into a DM fest, i see that exact same scenario shifting into SA within the first few weeks (after the initial shiny newness wears off).

 

people simply wont care about any inconveinence like disease, or any other mechanic Dean thinks will  "add to SA'.. if u get into a situation that suks, you'll just find a Z , and respawn..

 

i have ZERO faith this games community can come back its early days play style..zero faith indeed.

Well at least you don't have any false hopes.

 

Yeah starting fresh is gonna have to really really suck in order to make death feel truly painful. I think there should be a planned constant character progression, the longer you live. something that can be measured in ... well maybe a hundred hours?

 

I think it should cap around 100 hours, at this point, the perspective of going back to square one gets painful enough. For those hundred hours your character should simply get better at everything that is essential to DayZ, stamina, running speed, accuracy, reloading speed, healing,...

 

The advantage of being a 100+ hours survivor should be noticeable and desirable enough.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Lady Kyrah

[mazeash@mail.com 73]

Your idea is very similar to what I wrote a few days ago:

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/147970-character-value-skillsystem-statistic/

 

The problem is (besides the fact that people don't like the idea) that the degree between being overpowered and having insignificant advantages is very hard to get. If the "skills" you earn are things you simply don't need necessarly for surviving or doing special things (like repairing a heli ^^) the players won't even bother. If they die a few times they get used to it and don't care about these sideeffects anymore. However if the "skills" are powerful you will have an huge advantage in the game (it wouldn't bother me) which some players will not like.

But in my opinion that is ridicilous, because why wouldn't I be kind of overpowered? If I have a better weapon I am overpowered anyway. What will we do against this? And this will even change dramaticly in DayZ, because if someone has a weapon at all he has an huge advantage against most of the other players (because they simply have no weapon with ammo).

 

I like the idea, but it is not very knew and was even suggested by Dean himself.

 

Apologies, I didn't do any searches before posting this, please don't feel as though I have plagiarized you :P. I read your post, and found it interesting, I think that the reason the general scope of idea's you gave were met with dislike because of that elephant in the room: skill system. Many people seem scared to conceptualise a DayZ where skills have a place. Whilst I totally agree with this point of view in terms of direct skill tree's and obvious gaps in skill levels, especially when these skills are achievable via farming or other less-than-appropriate means; I really do feel that this idea has some weight to it. Yes it is true, a character which has survived long enough to head north to NWA will have more power in terms of weaponry, so I too don't see why their other faculties can't improve over time.

 

Also i'll stress again here as on reddit, it would have to be subtle, for the very reasons everyone is quick to point out. Let's take the shaky-shock system as an example here. It happens only in intense situations as it always has, and simply becomes a slight amount rarer over the course of a characters life. Not only is this avoiding giving long lived characters an OP boost, but it is such a subtle effect in general that it's presence would not mark a significant change in gameplay. There are many expansions to this concept of time-based character enhancements, which singularly may not mean much, but cumulatively could mean the difference between jumping off that roof or not.

 

Edit: Also I noticed from your post that a lot of the skills you suggested were actually just that skills. I skimmed through and thought we were on the same page but I was going a different way. Fixing cars is a good example. So instead of fixing loads of cars, receiving feedback ranging from 'you aren't sure how to fit this piece' to 'you have learnt how to fix an engine!' the kind of system I propose is that it simply is a difficult procedure to fix a vehicle and the skill you gain is a real life skill, not in game. So when you're in a hostage situation, you say you can fix a car, it isn't dependent your character's experience and knowledge of fixing cars, but your real life knowledge.

 

I do realise that there are some potential implementation problems with a system such as this, and indeed there would be wiki's a plenty, but it is, in theory at least, a nice notion. I am sure there must be ways in which a system like this could work, perhaps on a broader scale than would be ideal..

Edited September 23, 2013 by Maze