First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

The problem is that their side of the argument is always "I hate the head bobbing in FPV" that can be turned off, "I want to check out my player" which is useless because we now have a player model in the inventory, or some stuff that you have in TPV that is "better" than FPV even tho you have the same thing in FPV

 

They have a point tho, DayZ would be a whole hell of a lot less immersive without those sweet sweet animations in the mod. I mean, Imagine having to watch them from first person, it would ruin the experience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

/s

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

The problem is that their side of the argument is always "I hate the head bobbing in FPV" that can be turned off, "I want to check out my player" which is useless because we now have a player model in the inventory, or some stuff that you have in TPV that is "better" than FPV even tho you have the same thing in FPV

 

 

I hated FPV when I first tried it..  I then spent a chunk of change and realized it was really just my framerate that was the problem.  If you're not pushing at least 30+ in a city with FP then you're likely about to hurl and you're going to hate FP.

 

Have you ever heard of the "paper doll"?   Having a picture in the inventory, even if it's 3d and animated, is NOT the same, at all.

 

I don't expect anyone to change their minds about this, but at least try to see it from our side once in a while. If you only look at the stuff that reinforces your side of the argument, you'll never see where you could be wrong.

 

 

This is something we should all strive for.  The First Person camp, the Third Person camp, the Foot Person camp, we should all TRY to see the merits of the other side of the argument before dismissing it.  Otherwise, what's the point of debating?  If you can't honestly see the merits of the opposing view how can you actually counter it?  Trolling or taking shots at each other doesn't really do us much good.

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

TPV available only in a rest state sounds good, but common, IMO somewhat legitimate complaint about FPV only servers is being locked into FPV during those long travels. How about third person being available after running for x seconds and when you stop the view automatically zooms into first person? It would have to be done smoothly without too many abrupt changes but the idea is to travel in third person and do everything else in first person. It would make sense in SA, where we will have to switch to first person in buildings to find stuff under beds etc anyway.

[IncognitoNico 71]

 

 

I hated FPV when I first tried it..  I then spent a chunk of change and realized it was really just my framerate that was the problem.  If you're not pushing at least 30+ in a city with FP then you're likely about to hurl and you're going to hate FP.

 

Have you ever heard of the "paper doll"?   Having a picture in the inventory, even if it's 3d and animated, is NOT the same, at all.

 

Yeah but remember that the SA is going to be much more optimized and that the mod is rather choppy, so I think that anybody with a decent rig is going to be able to push 30+ fps

 

I know that is not the same and that's why I support your idea of the TPV on rest

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

What about only being able to switch on third person view when you're away from combat/zombies. Even go as far as making you stand still for 5seconds to let it activate. Then you're in third until you get close enough to a zombie, or someone uses a weapon within a certain range.(or bullet lands within that range) Once that is triggered you would have a delay before you can enable it again.

 

It would give us the same unmodified third person view in wilderness/camp situations, while eliminating a lot of the exploitation everywhere else.

Edited September 4, 2013 by bad_mojo

[dsi24 227]

How about.....

 

Third person view available only in a "rest state"?  That's assuming we don't need to apply bandages directly to wounds, something I'm just throwing out there which likely isn't the case.  Rest state would occur at a camp, campfire, or sitting still for X amount of time.  Camera would slowly rotate and any movement or attempt to control the camera would kick it back into first person.   

 

What this does:  Grants players the ability to take Show Off and Crew screenshots for random brag threads.  Lets players examine their character in their new fancy pants.  Forces players into first person in nearly every situation.  Cross-country travel wouldn't be as pretty but that may be a trade off.

 

Most of the gain, not too much of the pain, imo.  We might need some clever idle animations that include showing off the weapons we find.  The more animations/emotes the better for this.  A little bit of player chosen style in these rest state/idle animations would go a long way to convey personality.

 

Anyway, just another toss out.

 

Sounds good, more of a screenshot tool than a game mechanic though :p. It'd still allow you to scout a whole area just by taking a seat in a bush/on a roof though, make it so it only works around active campfires (give a signal that someone is trying to scout with third person).

TPV available only in a rest state sounds good, but common, IMO somewhat legitimate complaint about FPV only servers is being locked into FPV during those long travels. How about third person being available after running for x seconds and when you stop the view automatically zooms into first person? It would have to be done smoothly without too many abrupt changes but the idea is to travel in third person and do everything else in first person. It would make sense in SA, where we will have to switch to first person in buildings to find stuff under beds etc anyway.

I think some kind of autorun mode is needed regardless, maybe only active while autorun is active? Autorun would be a button press, then you don't have to use WASD, but can still control with mouse, toggle freelook (2x Alt) and you can watch the surroundings as you run. Autorun (and third person) stops when you hit something (so people can't spend the whole time scouting as they move, or just autorun against a wall to exploit third person) or when WASD or stance change is pressed.

 

What about only being able to switch on third person view when you're away from combat/zombies. Even go as far as making you stand still for 5seconds to let it activate. Then you're in third until you get close enough to a zombie, or someone uses a weapon within a certain range.(or bullet lands within that range) Once that is triggered you would have a delay before you can enable it again.

 

It would give us the same unmodified third person view in wilderness/camp situations, while eliminating a lot of the exploitation everywhere else.

The problem with only allowing TPV up until another player triggers something to force you out of it is that you know another player is around because of that. TPV is just as exploitable in the wilderness as it is in the cities. (in fact those pine trees are the only point where it can be physically impossible to see someone exploiting third person, making it only possible to tell they even exist by actually bumping into them. (even a heli can see someone on a roof exploiting it))

Edited September 4, 2013 by Dsi1

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

The problem with only allowing TPV up until another player triggers something to force you out of it is that you know another player is around because of that. TPV is just as exploitable in the wilderness as it is in the cities. (in fact those pine trees are the only point where it can be physically impossible to see someone exploiting third person, making it only possible to tell they even exist by actually bumping into them. (even a heli can see someone on a roof exploiting it))

 

But zombies.

 

Edit: Point of my suggestion is to make it so 3rd can only be used when safe. Make the radius for combat like 500m, and the zombies like 200m. People won't be able to tell which one caused them to go into first. Run around the forest swinging an axe and all exploiters in a square kilometer will be getting a face full of pine with a 5min cool down on their magic eye.

 

Numbers can be adjusted of course.

Edited September 4, 2013 by bad_mojo

[osiris 44]

if Dayz Standalone will run at a flat 60FPS in the centre of cherno or elecktro then i would be more than happy to play in 1st person all the time. however in the mod as it currently stands with the horrible laggy framerates in large towns or even in heavily forested areas, if i play in first person all the time i will have a headache within 30 mins of playing the game.

I HAVE TO play in 3rd person servers (in the mod) if i want to play for an extended amount of time. 

 

the only concession i make is to play on 3rd person servers without crosshairs. so everyone has to go to 1st person to use weapons sights.

 

fingers crossed we can get 60FPS and i can use oculus rift without getting a headache  B)

 

i have to add that is the main reason i am loving DayZero at the moment my frame rate it literally doubled compared to a vanilla server

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Sounds good, more of a screenshot tool than a game mechanic though :P. It'd still allow you to scout a whole area just by taking a seat in a bush/on a roof though, make it so it only works around active campfires (give a signal that someone is trying to scout with third person).

 

 

A time mechanic could counter that and it would be pretty hard to track targets as the camera slowly panned.   A zombie proximity could even be added.

 

Active fires would almost be a death sentence.

 

Yeah but remember that the SA is going to be much more optimized and that the mod is rather choppy, so I think that anybody with a decent rig is going to be able to push 30+ fps

 

I know that is not the same and that's why I support your idea of the TPV on rest

Certainly, but a lot of people can't imagine what that'll be like. I know I couldn't. Some of that optimization might be hijacked by additional zombies or rocketisms.

 

But zombies.

 

Edit: Point of my suggestion is to make it so 3rd can only be used when safe. Make the radius for combat like 500m, and the zombies like 200m. People won't be able to tell which one caused them to go into first. Run around the forest swinging an axe and all exploiters in a square kilometer will be getting a face full of pine with a 5min cool down on their magic eye.

 

Numbers can be adjusted of course.

 

FP shouldn't be locked to any other player action or it'll be heavily abused to detect other players.  If you're chilling in third looking at your fancy pants, a player should absolutely have the ability to sneak up on you, whether he's swinging an axe or not.

Edited September 4, 2013 by SausageKingofChicago

[Mos1ey 6301]

Certainly, but a lot of people can't imagine what that'll be like. I know I couldn't. Some of that optimization might be hijacked by additional zombies or rocketisms.

 

Also remember that DayZ standalone is wayyy ahead of ArmA 2 graphically. I really wouldn't expect much higher frame rates than you get in ArmA 2 or 3, the trade off is a much better looking game than the mod.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Also remember that DayZ standalone is wayyy ahead of ArmA 2 graphically. I really wouldn't expect much higher frame rates than you get in ArmA 2 or 3, the trade off is a much better looking game than the mod.

 

 

I read something like that but it's all theory to most of us.  Did they upgrade all the LODs for the various structures and objects?  I was rocking a bottom feeder 2.4 dual core with a 9500gt and I had to crank everything down to get playable frames.  I didn't know what kind of disadvantage I was at or how awful the textures looked until I upgraded.  With the old rig, fp was sickening.  Seriously.  With the newer system, I kill with impunity.  

 

With FP, framerates are key.  The headbob plays a huge part in that.

[RooBurger 285]

How about.....

 

Third person view available only in a "rest state"?  That's assuming we don't need to apply bandages directly to wounds, something I'm just throwing out there which likely isn't the case.  Rest state would occur at a camp, campfire, or sitting still for X amount of time.  Camera would slowly rotate and any movement or attempt to control the camera would kick it back into first person.   

 

What this does:  Grants players the ability to take Show Off and Crew screenshots for random brag threads.  Lets players examine their character in their new fancy pants.  Forces players into first person in nearly every situation.  Cross-country travel wouldn't be as pretty but that may be a trade off.

 

Most of the gain, not too much of the pain, imo.  We might need some clever idle animations that include showing off the weapons we find.  The more animations/emotes the better for this.  A little bit of player chosen style in these rest state/idle animations would go a long way to convey personality.

 

Anyway, just another toss out.

 

My favourite solution so far. Takes 3rdP out of combat mechanics.

[Heiduk 265]

Rest state would occur at a camp, campfire, or sitting still for X amount of time.  Camera would slowly rotate and any movement or attempt to control the camera would kick it back into first person.

DayZ, now with hands free hospital roof camping. Actually, I suppose this could work. Personally I don't see the attraction of watching my character, but clearly some people do so hey, whatever you're in to.

 

I hated FPV when I first tried it..  I then spent a chunk of change and realized it was really just my framerate that was the problem.  If you're not pushing at least 30+ in a city with FP then you're likely about to hurl and you're going to hate FP.

What do you think the difference is that makes low-frame rates in 1st person so much more unpleasant than in 3rd person? Is it something that could be fixed in 1st?

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

DayZ, now with hands free hospital roof camping. Actually, I suppose this could work. Personally I don't see the attraction of watching my character, but clearly some people do so hey, whatever you're in to.

 

 

 

That would depend on how a "rest state" would be defined.  Even if the hospital in the middle of town would be part of that definition, how fast would the rotation be and would that actually be useful to some fool sitting on a roof?   

 

Perhaps a rest state would take longer to achieve in a city than out in the wild?

Edited September 4, 2013 by SausageKingofChicago

[IncognitoNico 71]

What do you think the difference is that makes low-frame rates in 1st person so much more unpleasant than in 3rd person? Is it something that could be fixed in 1st?

It's not that you get less frames on first person, if anything you would get less on 3rd because you have 1 more entity to calculate and render, but it has more to do with that the lower frames are more noticeable in first person, and when you have lower frames it's harder to move if you get extremely low frames, but there we would be talking 10 or lower

[Jamz 253]

That would depend on how a "rest state" would be defined.  Even if the hospital in the middle of town would be part of that definition, how fast would the rotation be and would that actually be useful to some fool sitting on a roof?   

 

Perhaps a rest state would take longer to achieve in a city than out in the wild?

 

Perhaps when in rest state in a built up area could be just in first person, so a player would have to head into the wild to see themselves? It might have the added bonus of getting people out of the city once in a while if they camp there? Also there could be a TPV just for foot travel locked to an autorun function but without mouselook, so you could use numberpad to look around while travelling.

[dgeesio 1034]

standalone should be 60 fps easy on a newish rig thats plenty.

 

if i can get over that on arma 3 and cant on standalone ill be scratching my head.

[Zorath (DayZ) 1]

I hope first person will be forced on players who get  cuffed. I like the idea of placing a poor cuffed player against a wall and place a well aimed shot right at their head, them not knowing when or even if the shot is coming and then have them instantly die at the pull of my trigger.

[Inception. 9443]

- player-player interaction

- encourages role playing

- tactical overview, no tunnel vision

- reflects natural self and souround awareness

- no desorientation in buildings like with 1st person

 

 

Your points here are rather weak. Role playing?

Edited September 4, 2013 by Inception.

[tommes 331]

  

I hated FPV when I first tried it..  I then spent a chunk of change and realized it was really just my framerate that was the problem.  If you're not pushing at least 30+ in a city with FP then you're likely about to hurl and you're going to hate FP.

 

Yeah, FPS are the key because you compensate the lack of FOV usually with looking around using rapid mouse movements. But with low fps you don't see shit. That's why back in the day everyone did anything to get 100 fps in Counterstrike. Just didn't feel smooth otherwise. I'd say that fps 60+ are smooth enough for Arma and related. Everything is a little slower there compared to other first person shooters.

 

Also remember that DayZ standalone is wayyy ahead of ArmA 2 graphically. I really wouldn't expect much higher frame rates than you get in ArmA 2 or 3, the trade off is a much better looking game than the mod.

 

 

Graphics should be also much more scalable. The biggest problem for DayZ though is the server performance. The game runs much better in like Wasteland or vanilla Arma 2. It's all that DayZ loot and object stuff that screws up the server which in return slows down the clients. So the new spawning system and network bubble may improve things a lot.

 

What do you think the difference is that makes low-frame rates in 1st person so much more unpleasant than in 3rd person? Is it something that could be fixed in 1st?

 

 

If you can see your character you don't feel so confined because you can already see what's right next to you without turning.

[Ken Bean 175]

Your points here are rather weak. Role playing?

 

Could you explain your thoughts on this?

Without any explaination it slightly looks like you just invalidate every opinion which isn't yours, by saying "wrong".

 

How could a constructive answer look like?

 

Do you just want everyone to repeat everything what already has been said?

 

So how can I help you?

Edited September 4, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Inception. 9443]

Could you explain your thoughts on this?

Without any explaination it slightly looks like you just invalidate every opinion which isn't yours, by saying "wrong".

 

How could a constructive answer look like?

 

Do you just want everyone to repeat everything what already has been said?

 

So how can I help you?

 

You have yet to elaborate upon those listed points and explain how exactly 3rd person contributes to them. You are the one who lacks the explanation; also, I wasn't saying that my opinion is superior, I was merely saying that your points aren't exactly the best. 

 

So please, how does third person encourage role-playing? 

--

As someone said, Sausage's suggestion has been the best so far.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Inception.

[Ken Bean 175]

You have yet to elaborate upon those listed points and explain how exactly 3rd person contributes to them. You are the one who lacks the explanation; also, I wasn't saying that my opinion is superior, I was merely saying that your points aren't exactly the best. 

 

So please, how does third person encourage role-playing?

I thought I already tried, e.g. here:

I want to add that 3rd person is a base element of the roleplay part of the game which goes beyond those shooter elements. Survival also is roleplaying. Are you a hunter, a scravenger, a bandit and so on?

[...]

DayZ also focuses on litteraly 'doing things', like 'doing survival'. Therefore seeing your character 'doing survival things' for me is the key element of playing a survival game.

What's the point which might be unclear?

Edited September 4, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Inception. 9443]

I thought I already tried, e.g. here:

What's the point which might be unclear?

 

Oh, as the list of points was posted a few days after your explanation there, it appeared as if there was no explanation.

 

So, I apologise if you have explained before: what about player interaction?

Edited September 4, 2013 by Inception.

[Wayze 549]

Oh, as the list of points was posted a few days after your explanation there, it appeared as if there was no explanation.

 

So, I apologise if you have explained before: what about player interaction?

You serious? You just accept that "explaination"? :lol: