First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Teo (DayZ) 6]

After thinking about this, how about changing the 3rd person camera to be right next to the head, somewhat like in this picture:

http://cs1.gamemodding.net/posts/2013-04/10075200_1366090604_gta_sa_2013-04-10_10-26-49-29.jpg

 

Then there wouldn't be that big unfair benefit, but you would be able to see your own character.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I wonder how many of the 1st person brigade complaining about the lack of servers for their preferred play style have actually paid to have their own server online and actively garnered support from the other 1st person fans to get their servers full?

 

Just saying.

I did.  It was ages ago though =)  I spent bloody hours promoting Planet DayZ's hardcore 1st person  vanilla servers too.  We got busy, really busy.

 

The problem is without constantly promoting it people "choose" the default 3rd person servers.  The feedback on the forums was always great and people loved it, we had many converts.

 

Anyhoo, I'm not arguing for the 3rd person cam to be removed, I just want it fixed. 

Edited August 28, 2013 by Fraggle

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

If you prone in grass why should you be able to see something? You are prone in the grass, the other guy does not see you, so why should you be able to see him? Exactly that is also a point which appears in real life.

You never can see someone if you don't have visual contact. If you can see him he should be able to see you, because that is how it works in real life and how it should work in DayZ to improve the immersion and the combat system.

Exactly, and if the ability to raise your head a bit was implemented, the other guy could also see you. Well, he can see you now too because grass layer needs to be improved as well but that's another story. What I'm saying is, we can't expect many if any at all improvements for FPV. I do understand where Dean is coming from, it's a big decision and unlike the mod which could have been a complete failure for all he cared, the standalone game is a different story. I still think he's made a mistake, especially if FPV only servers are not even going to be an option. Time will tell.

[Ken Bean 175]

I did.  It was ages ago though =)  I spent bloody hours promoting Planet DayZ's hardcore 1st person  vanilla servers too.  We got busy, really busy.

 

The problem is without constantly promoting it people "choose" the default 3rd person servers.  The feedback on the forums was always great and people loved it, we had many converts.

 

Anyhoo, I'm not arguing for the 3rd person cam to be removed, I just want it fixed. 

 

This somehow doesn't fit together. People sometimes play the hard guys. It is not unrealistic that on a forum someone defends 1st person view while playing on 3rd person server. You have seen the poll posted here claiming that 60 % or so would favour 1st person. Well obviously this is not the case.

 

After thinking about this, how about changing the 3rd person camera to be right next to the head, somewhat like in this picture:

http://cs1.gamemodding.net/posts/2013-04/10075200_1366090604_gta_sa_2013-04-10_10-26-49-29.jpg

Then there wouldn't be that big unfair benefit, but you would be able to see your own character.

Something like this already has been suggested e.g. by SausageKing. Has advantages and disadvantages. Looking around a corner still might work with this angle.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

 

This somehow doesn't fit together. People sometimes play the hard guys. It is not unrealistic that on a forum someone defends 1st person view while playing on 3rd person server. You have seen the poll posated here claiming that 60 % or so would favor 1st person. Well obviously thgis is not the case.

Well that's because it depends who you ask.  That was my honest answer =)

 

Unless you're claiming that I'm lying to make a point which I'm sure you're not.

 

And anyhoo, as has been said by me, SmashT, Demon, Rednome, Orlok and others (all with slightly differing views on the matter btw) it's kind of a moot discussion because 3rd person isn't being removed from the game.  They just want to explore the possibility of fixing the current issue with the 3rd person cam.

 

It's highly likely it'll be something very simple and I'm not complaining about it so I'm not sure where this elitist DayZ hipster thing comes from every time I make a post.

 

I've already accepted compromise, it's a shame others can't

Edited August 28, 2013 by Fraggle

[Ken Bean 175]

Well that's because it depends who you ask. That was my honest answer =)

Unless you'r claiming that I'm lying to make a point which I'm sure you're not.

And anyhoo, as has been said by me, SmashT, Demon, Rednome, Orlok and others (all with slightly differing views on the matter btw) it's kind of a moot discussion because 3rd person isn't being removed from the game. They just want to explore the possibility of fixing the current issue with the 3rd person cam.

It's highly likely it'll be something very simple and I'm not complaining about it so I'm not sure where this elitist DayZ hipster thing comes from every time I make a post.

I've already accepted compromise, it's a shame others can't

I'm not saying you or others are lying here. All we have is different views. ;)

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Wayze 549]

 

This somehow doesn't fit together. People sometimes play the hard guys. It is not unrealistic that on a forum someone defends 1st person view while playing on 3rd person server. You have seen the poll posted here claiming that 60 % or so would favour 1st person. Well obviously this is not the case.

 

Something like this already has been suggested e.g. by SausageKing. Has advantages and disadvantages. Looking around a corner still might work with this angle.

Well obviously people tend to take the easy path, especially in a survival scenario which kind of activates you instincts. Even me I find myself playing on third person servers, mainly because there are no decent first person players, but also because it is way easier. And DayZ is not a survival game anymore. You can find weapons everywhere, you will never starve because there is food everywhere and people just kill one sight for fun. Obviously that is the case now. DayZ Mod is not like DayZ is supposed to be. So why should I play first person if there is no reason for me. DayZ right now is purely PVP. Zombies are lame and you can survive a year just by taking 10 cans of beans and water in your backpack and go into the forest.

But like I said this will change in SA. No weapons, no ammo and no food. It will be way harder to survive. Then I will have a reason for playing the game in first person, because it actually is a pretty realistic survival scenario, besides the fact that zombies exist.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Well all I can say is thank god this isn't a game designed by commitee.  When you try to please everyone you fail.

 

I'd rather see them release a game that 400,000 people play and say is the best game they've ever played than a game that 2,000,000 play that they forget about after a few weeks.

 

All we can do is hope that Dean feels the same.

[dsi24 227]

 

This somehow doesn't fit together. People sometimes play the hard guys. It is not unrealistic that on a forum someone defends 1st person view while playing on 3rd person server. You have seen the poll posted here claiming that 60 % or so would favour 1st person. Well obviously this is not the case.

It's really interesting how these people respond when faced with hard numbers. Remind me why multiple polls from multiple sources that say the exact same thing aren't real again? Remind me why 1st person servers falling into disuse as people fall back into the easymode servers "somehow doesn't fit together"? 

 

Poll any forum for any FPS about third person, every single time you'll get a majority "fuck no". But apparently DayZ, a game where you shoot people in first person, isn't an FPS? Remind me why that's true?

 

Everyone knows what third person is doing to this game, yet some crazies are hanging onto it for dear life. It's utter insanity, that's the only term for it.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

It's really interesting how these people respond when faced with hard numbers. Remind me why multiple polls from multiple sources that say the exact same thing aren't real again? Remind me why 1st person servers falling into disuse as people fall back into the easymode servers "somehow doesn't fit together"? 

 

Poll any forum for any FPS about third person, every single time you'll get a majority "fuck no". But apparently DayZ, a game where you shoot people in first person, isn't an FPS? Remind me why that's true?

 

Everyone knows what third person is doing to this game, yet some crazies are hanging onto it for dear life. It's utter insanity, that's the only term for it.

 

 

Because... shooting people isn't the only goal and it's not necessary to shoot from first person?

Edited August 28, 2013 by SausageKingofChicago

[RedNome 443]

It's really interesting how these people respond when faced with hard numbers. Remind me why multiple polls from multiple sources that say the exact same thing aren't real again?

 

Well, I have done multiple times, but you have ignored my posts both times.

 

From the polls supplied, the number of votes cast constitutes 0.03% of the Dayz player base (approx)

 

You tell me how that is representative of the entire Dayz population?

 

All the polls tell you is that the majority of the active forum posters (here and on Reddit) prefer to have 1st person only, that's it, that is all the useful information you can gather from these results.

 

We all know the wider population thinks different, doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that out.

[Wayze 549]

Well, I have done multiple times, but you have ignored my posts both times.

 

From the polls supplied, the number of votes cast constitutes 0.03% of the Dayz player base (approx)

 

You tell me how that is representative of the entire Dayz population?

 

All the polls tell you is that the majority of the active forum posters (here and on Reddit) prefer to have 1st person only, that's it, that is all the useful information you can gather from these results.

 

We all know the wider population thinks different, doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that out.

How do you know that the "wider population" thinks different? Because admins decide over what people play? Because the players play on third person servers?

Well, I'll try to open a new poll which asks if those people who don't want third person servers actually play on first person servers or not.

 

And you forgot that DayZ is not made for the "wider population" but for us the hardcore community. Without us this game would simply not exist because we were the guys who made youtube videos, we were those who made free advertisment. And if he makes the game for the "wider population" in the end it will just be another survival shooter that failed due to developer ignorance.

[RedNome 443]

How do you know that the "wider population" thinks different? Because admins decide over what people play? Because the players play on third person servers?

Well, I'll try to open a new poll which asks if those people who don't want third person servers actually play on first person servers or not.

 

And you forgot that DayZ is not made for the "wider population" but for us the hardcore community. Without us this game would simply not exist because we were the guys who made youtube videos, we were those who made free advertisment. And if he makes the game for the "wider population" in the end it will just be another survival shooter that failed due to developer ignorance.

 

Open another poll, it'll be just as useless as the ones already done for reasons already stated.

 

The game isn't made for the wider population no, agreed, it also isn't made for the 'hardcore community' as you call it either, it is made for Dean, as he has said many times he is making the game that he wants to play, and seeing as he likes to play with 3rd person I guess it is here to stay and you'll just have to deal with it.

Edited August 28, 2013 by RedNome

[Wayze 549]

I started a new poll:

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/146501-do-you-play-on-first-or-third-person-servers/

 

 

 

 

Open another poll, it'll be just as useless as the ones already done for reasons already stated.

 

The game isn't made for the wider population no, agreed, it also isn't made for the 'hardcore community' as you call it either, it is made for Dean, as he has said many times he is making the game that he wants to play, and seeing as he likes to play with 3rd person I guess it is here to stay and you'll just have to deal with it.

Wrong, he stated once he would make that game for the hardcore fans, not for anyone else. Sure, he also tends to do what he likes, but he is doing it for us, not for himself.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Wayze

[Ken Bean 175]

It's really interesting how these people respond when faced with hard numbers. Remind me why multiple polls from multiple sources that say the exact same thing aren't real again? Remind me why 1st person servers falling into disuse as people fall back into the easymode servers "somehow doesn't fit together"? 

 

Poll any forum for any FPS about third person, every single time you'll get a majority "fuck no". But apparently DayZ, a game where you shoot people in first person, isn't an FPS? Remind me why that's true?

 

Everyone knows what third person is doing to this game, yet some crazies are hanging onto it for dear life. It's utter insanity, that's the only term for it.

So lets nail it:

You 1st person only guys actually never switch to third person?

 

You always run around in super immersive 1st person mode even through the most boring landscape ever in default plains?

You earned a hero or bandit skin and never switched to third person to see how it looks like?

You guys never switched to third person after you found a ghillie to see what effect it has?

You are completely uninterested how a backpack looks on your char?

You found an NVG and never felt the desire to see how that thing looks like as you wear it?

You never went prone into a bush and took a look if you are covered?

You never drove a car and took a peek how cool you guys are looking?

... never made a fire and switched to 3rd person to see what your char actually is doing?

... never raised your hands to surrender and wanted to know what your char is doing?

... never run around with flares or chemlights in 3rd person?

 

I don't think so.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[dsi24 227]

So lets nail it:

You 1st person only guys actually never switch to third person?

 

You you guys always run around in super immersive 1st person mode even through the most boring landscape ever imn default plains?

You earned a hero or bandit skin and never switched to third person to see how it looks like?

You guys never switched to third person after you found a ghillie to see what effect it has?

You are completely uninterested how a backpack looks on your char?

You found an NVG and never felt the desire to see how that thing looks like as you wear it?

You never went prone into a bush and took a look if you are covered?

You never drove a car and took a peek how cool you guys are looking?

... never made a fire an and switched to 3rd person to see what your char actually is doing?

... never raised your hands to surrender and wanted to know what your char is doing?

... never run around with flares or chemlights in 3rd person?

 

I don't think so.

So your argument is that, because third person makes the game so easy, we're all wrong about it because we've used it before?

 

No, we use it, and because we've used it, we understand that it's bad for the game. 

 

It's funny, literally everywhere there's massive support for first person only. On Reddit, here, even on the video that triggered this all. All the evidence is there to support that people who like third person are in the minority, and the majority are just people who deal with it.

[tommes 331]

Maybe I just don't get it. But is there a game out there which has that many variations of the core game like DayZ?

I sometimes have serious difficulties finding a DayZ version which is vanilla. And I most of the time want to play as vanilla as possible. But there obviously is a big userbase which enjoys custom rules and custom experiences.

Maybe you understand now the problem FPV-Users are facing. We can't find decent servers because everybody is setting their servers to some bullshit mode we don't want.

Btw, there's almost no vanilla servers anymore because the hive was screwed an overrun with cheaters and scripters. Players had to move to private hives where admins could protect their flock. The userbase didn't just choose to go, they were driven away by cheats and exploits includin duping items and overly use of .50 cal sniper rifles.

The problem was essentially the same as the TPV thingy. If you give the possibility of exploitation at least some will do...and that screws it up for the others.

Mind, that one of the main motivations for someone to set up a server is to set own rules and to customize certain things.

Sure. But those are wrong in DayZ. That's why Rocket removed the possibility of setting a server password for hive servers once. People rented their servers, set up a password and could gear up in peace and have their bases protected there. But that's against the idea of DayZ. You are not supposed to have such perks in the zombie apocalypse.

 

That 3rd person sucks balls is your opinion. Why are there so few server admins who seems to share your opinion? Their opinion is different from yours. Or maybe 1st person player are too lazy, selfish and egomaniacal in general to set up a server and they only demand  others to change instead. ;D

We've explained that one now like 83 times spread over 45 pages or so. Just admit you don't want to understand our viewpoint.

[RedNome 443]

I started a new poll:

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/146501-do-you-play-on-first-or-third-person-servers/

 

 

 

 

Wrong, he stated once he would make that game for the hardcore fans, not for anyone else. Sure, he also tends to do what he likes, but he is doing it for us, not for himself.

 

What is a 'hardcore fan' exactly?

 

Do all these 'hardcore fans' think the exact same way about every design decision of Dayz SA?

 

If the answer to that question is no, how can a developer make a game for the 'hardcore fans' and keep them all happy?

 

Therefore Rocket is, as I said from his own quotes. making this game for himself, and if you subscribe to his particular view point then all the better for you, if you don't, do you think he gives a flying fuck?

[SmashT 10907]

I don't play on first person servers at all, I tried once or twice and all the servers were pretty much empty so I gave up. (I didn't vote on the poll either) Unless I am in combat I'm almost always in third person mode, I don't want third person removed or to play on first person only servers. Regardless I do want the problems with third person addressed as I believe they are detrimental to gameplay.

[Ken Bean 175]

So your argument is that, because third person makes the game so easy, we're all wrong about it because we've used it before?

 

No, we use it, and because we've used it, we understand that it's bad for the game. 

 

It's funny, literally everywhere there's massive support for first person only. On Reddit, here, even on the video that triggered this all. All the evidence is there to support that people who like third person are in the minority, and the majority are just people who deal with it.

 

 

1st person shooter basically dont need a third person because the player don't do interresting things. Even though some switch into a kill cam because the only interesting thing the character is doing is having a cool finishing move. Most shooter perfectly come along with showing a weapon and the enemy, making weapon sounds, that's the basic story.

 

3rd person view comes into play as soon as your char does stuff, wears things which have a meaning, short: doing role play.

 

If you remove the 3rd person, you basically turn the game into a 1st person shooter with all its drawbacks. Yes, 1st person shooter are popular, but its not everything DayZ intended to be.

 

Because... shooting people isn't the only goal and it's not necessary to shoot from first person?

qft!

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[RedNome 443]

All the evidence is there to support that people who like third person are in the minority, and the majority are just people who deal with it.

 

Laughable.

[amradude 289]

Laughable.

 

Pretty much

[tommes 331]

So lets nail it:

You 1st person only guys actually never switch to third person?

 

You always run around in super immersive 1st person mode even through the most boring landscape ever in default plains?

You earned a hero or bandit skin and never switched to third person to see how it looks like?

You guys never switched to third person after you found a ghillie to see what effect it has?

You are completely uninterested how a backpack looks on your char?

You found an NVG and never felt the desire to see how that thing looks like as you wear it?

You never went prone into a bush and took a look if you are covered?

You never drove a car and took a peek how cool you guys are looking?

... never made a fire and switched to 3rd person to see what your char actually is doing?

... never raised your hands to surrender and wanted to know what your char is doing?

... never run around with flares or chemlights in 3rd person?

 

I don't think so.

Gosh, I really hate you. I use TPV too on TPV enabled servers. It is more comfortable in some situations and I don't want to be at disadvantage. I'm quite willing to give that up for a more decent gaming experience.

Btw, the landscape is the same. No matter which view. You can unnaturally see more with TPV, which may give you comfort but breaks common sense and makes common sense tactics partly invalid. You won't understand that.

[Ken Bean 175]

Gosh, I really hate you. I use TPV too on TPV enabled servers. It is more comfortable in some situations and I don't want to be at disadvantage. I'm quite willing to give that up for a more decent gaming experience.

Btw, the landscape is the same. No matter which view. You can unnaturally see more with TPV, which may give you comfort but breaks common sense and makes common sense tactics partly invalid. You won't understand that.

:D I knew you would like it. But this also means a lot of atmosphere for me. Sometimes I move to towns like this.

http://1.1.1.1/bmi/www.loaditup.de/files/783915_95a65zks54.jpg

It might be not be very sneaky or exploiting anything but feels just cool.

Just looked at some screenshots and I'm fighting and moving more in 3rd person than I thought.

So your argument is that, because third person makes the game so easy, we're all wrong about it because we've used it before?

No, we use it, and because we've used it, we understand that it's bad for the game.

So you are the camper around Berezino killing me from time to time?

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Heiduk 265]

Normal - FPV only

Easy - A modified TPV

I would be OK with this, assuming that Bohemia is running the servers so that there are decent servers available. That being said it is far from the ideal solution as it splits the community and splits development time. It is also far from clear that separate servers are even on the table. I would also relabel the servers to:

Survival - FPV only

Deathmatch - A modified TPV

Ken et al., make good points that in many cases 3rd person does make combat against a human opponent harder. However, I think it is pretty easy to see that 3rd person makes every other aspect of the game easier. In my view this encourages deathmatch. I would make a distinction between deathmatch and the type of tactical PVP play that has characterized previous ARMA games. 3rd person eliminates the effectiveness of suppressive fire along with all of the tactics that are based on it. Pretty much all that remains is long-range sniping and run and gun twitch shooting.

 

[in 1st person] I'd like an easier way of looking around oneself to check the immediate vicinity.

Out of curiosity what do you think would be better than the current Alt mouse look? This is one of my favorite features in ARMA and I'm constantly trying to use it in other games that don't have it.

 

So lets nail it:

You 1st person only guys actually never switch to third person?

 

You always run around in super immersive 1st person mode even through the most boring landscape ever in default plains?

You earned a hero or bandit skin and never switched to third person to see how it looks like?

You guys never switched to third person after you found a ghillie to see what effect it has?

You are completely uninterested how a backpack looks on your char?

You found an NVG and never felt the desire to see how that thing looks like as you wear it?

You never went prone into a bush and took a look if you are covered?

You never drove a car and took a peek how cool you guys are looking?

... never made a fire and switched to 3rd person to see what your char actually is doing?

... never raised your hands to surrender and wanted to know what your char is doing?

... never run around with flares or chemlights in 3rd person?

I have no interest in playing Apocalypse Barbie Dressup.

In the beginning I played 1st person servers. Then they started disappearing so I played on 3rd person servers. After awhile I tried playing in 3rd person. Even though I wasn't camping rooftops I couldn't help but exploit the view. The game became easy and there was no tension anymore. I went back to playing 1st person on 3rd person servers and tried finding a decent 1st person home but the magic was lost. I haven't played in months.

I don't hunt players and I've had the most fun in DayZ when I decided to roleplay by placing artificial limitations on myself to make the game more realistic. Hell, not only have I run across Chernarus multiple times in 1st person, I've walked across it.