First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[RooBurger 285]

Don't be ridiculous; it's clearly an argument.

 

It's clearly a crap argument and a waste of time. Right now server admins can choose to have 3rdP on or off, which is a complete failure because 99% leave it on. Which means those who prefer 1st have to play on them. So much for choice. This argument is a waste of time, a distraction, a red herring.

 

What we need to discuss is whether it should be removed or modified. Saying "CHOICE CHOICE CHOICE!" won't get us anywhere.

Edited August 28, 2013 by RooBurger

[terrvik 2409]

Out of curiosity, what is the default setting for TPV when setting up a new server?

[SMLE 39]

It's clearly a crap argument and a waste of time. Right now server admins can choose to have 3rdP on or off, which is a complete failure because 99% leave it on. Which means those who prefer 1st have to play on them. So much for choice. This argument is a waste of time, a distraction, a red herring.

 

What we need to discuss is whether it should be removed or modified. Saying "CHOICE CHOICE CHOICE!" won't get us anywhere.

According to other people in this thread The server admins situation will not change for standalone they will still be the ones deciding , 1stP people will still be between a rock and a hard place and I feel sorry for them its not an ideal outcome , but penalizing the 3rdP is no answer either , Ive put forward an idea you don't like fine how about you propose something . And to be clear your post is about your inability to get servers with your play style not why 3rdP view is bad in any way .

cheers

[terrvik 2409]

Here are some exploits that I currently know of in the mod.

 

Combat logging.

Loot farming.

Hiding tents inside solid objects.

 

Are these fair to use since everyone can use them? Or should they be fixed? In my opinion they break the game, and I don't use them.

 

Everyone being able to use TPV might be "fair" overall on a server but as soon as there is some kind of confrontation it turns into one unfair mess of a gameplay mechanic that must be fixed. You missed a shot and the guy hid behind a rock? Well, have a mate suppress it and advance? No, can't be done since he is hiding behind the rock but can still see your every move thanks to his magic friend Mr Camera. This isn't fair, fun, challenging or exciting. It's broken.

 

EDIT: I want to say again: I don't neccessarily want TPV gone, I want it fixed.'

EDIT2: And some good fixes has been suggested in the thread so far!

Edited August 28, 2013 by Terrorviktor

[Wayze 549]

Like I said, there is no solution for the wall hacking problem. In third person you can always see what is behind a wall, behind a corner. This simple fact is changing the whole combat system into arcade shooter. You can not use any combat tactics which base on reality. Even if you cannot peek over something you will always be able to peek next to something.

 

So the only solution I see is to let the main server decide which server is a third person server and which one is not a third person server. There should be a global poll and this statistics should then be used to let the main server decide how many servers are first person and how many are not. You cannot give the choice to the admin because it will result in the same as in the mod.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Wayze

[droznig 20]

I've already made a viable suggestion that seems to go largely ignored. Instead of all characters being able to pick between all servers, you pick what difficulty you want to play each character on, once you pick you can not change the setting for that character. You pick easy you can only play on servers with default easy settings from Arma 2 such as tpv, crosshairs etc. If you pick hard, you can only play on servers which have the default hard settings for arma 2, fpv only, no croshairs etc.

 

No mix and match, if you want to play on hard or easy, that's cool, but server hopping between difficulties is just silly and should not be allowed. If people want to play on servers where cheats or hacks are allowed or where tpv is allowed, that's cool, but I don't ever want to have to play with those people. At the risk of sounding like a horrible racist, they should stick to their own kind.

[SMLE 39]

Here are some exploits that I currently know of in the mod.

 

Combat logging.

Loot farming.

Hiding tents inside solid objects.

 

Are these fair to use since everyone can use them? Or should they be fixed? In my opinion they break the game, and I don't use them.

 

Everyone being able to use TPV might be "fair" overall on a server but as soon as there is some kind of confrontation it turns into one unfair mess of a gameplay mechanic that must be fixed. You missed a shot and the guy hid behind a rock? Well, have a mate suppress it and advance? No, can't be done since he is hiding behind the rock but can still see your every move thanks to his magic friend Mr Camera. This isn't fair, fun, challenging or exciting. It's broken.

 

EDIT: I want to say again: I don't neccessarily want TPV gone, I want it fixed.

I agree with your list totally and I would add putting tents underwater , turning the game settings to minimum so you can see people easier and so many more but they are bugs and should be fixed . We are talking about play styles which have different features , I wont say more I just hope the devs come up with something to keep us all happy , no easy task I think .

cheers

[Ken Bean 175]

For half a million years, when Battlefield 1942 was not too old, I used to play on an Australian server. Since I'm from Europe, my ping was beyond good and evil but I just plain loved these guys on that server. The admins were great and they sometimes set some rules to make the game more interestingn and spicey. From time to time they wrote in chat sth like "Zookaparty" (they had a word I don't remember) and restarted the map. From that point on your only were allowed to kill each other with bazookas only, which kind of is very tricky since those projectiles are quite slow and you also had a long time frame between triggering the shot and actually shooting. If you used a gun, you were kicked untill you got the rule. It was not per se easier, it was different. On the one hand it was more difficult to hit somebody but in return, you were way harder to hit as well, resulting in very long lives and very long and dense rounds.

This somehow reminds me a bit of the situation here, since you had utilities (guns and soldier classes etc) the game by default offered, but were temporary not allowed to use.

Similar to that some of you here decided that the 3rd person view is the feature which should not be allowed to use.

Difference is, that some don't see it as game rule which could be apllied or not. As long as a rule applies to everyone, no one is in an advantage. And the "first person only" supporter make their mistake right here. They defined their handicap (not to use 3rd p) as the only one appropriated. Therefore they made a bunch of theories to "proof" their opinion that everything beyond 1st person is not the "normal way"  to play. That evolution of mankind would demand 1st person view. That 3rd person player would play in "easy mode" and so on. This is not true, this only are justifications. If you take a closer look, these argumentations are not even consistent. You guys say "its harder and easier the same time". In fact it's neither easier nor harder, but different. It's like the Zookaparty a custom rule. The core problem you have is the way to enforce this custom rule is to define it with the server settings and that most server are not configurated being 1st person only.

I know, you may don't want to hear it but in fact your way out would be the ability to chose.

Devs: Build in a poll function which allows to change that rule on the fly based on what the player want or - the other way round, even way better - build in a function what allows admins to define rules on the fly. Because changeing the server config might be not the most convenient way to handle things. That's why you don't have enough variation in the server situation. They set the decission once and that's it. Player on the other hand do love variety. See that what worked for Battlefield back in those days (that the admin said "now other rules") doesn't work for DayZ. Noone would give a shit what he wrote in chat. So give them the tools to define them on the fly.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[SMLE 39]

I've already made a viable suggestion that seems to go largely ignored. Instead of all characters being able to pick between all servers, you pick what difficulty you want to play each character on, once you pick you can not change the setting for that character. You pick easy you can only play on servers with default easy settings from Arma 2 such as tpv, crosshairs etc. If you pick hard, you can only play on servers which have the default hard settings for arma 2, fpv only, no croshairs etc.

 

No mix and match, if you want to play on hard or easy, that's cool, but server hopping between difficulties is just silly and should not be allowed. If people want to play on servers where cheats or hacks are allowed or where tpv is allowed, that's cool, but I don't ever want to have to play with those people. At the risk of sounding like a horrible racist, they should stick to their own kind.

A fair post with a good idea , I would have given Beans but the ending was uncalled for .

cheers

[wild_man 4442]

2 hive solution for me is only way for fix this :thumbsup:

 

is no extra work for devs, they stop worry for this and focus on SA game play :)

 

they can find way for fix some exploit and make patch for full release or something like ;)

 

3rd person system survive but don't affect guys who play normal way :thumbsup:

 

all player get exact what they want :D

 

 

I read everythings here and this one is only answer for make all guys happy and don't require any change for game code :thumbsup:  :rolleyes:

 

is possible make this happen straight away no bullshit. Is surprise me more guys don't see this is best way.

 

Demongroove and terrorviktor already find answer, why same argue for nothing?

[tommes 331]

Well, there's some stuff we won't have to agree upon because they're more or less fact:

- Only the 3rd person fans are happy right now.

- The most simple solution would be to just shut off 3rd person view. No coding time. No performance impact anywhere.

- Playing in 1st has to be improved anyway by improving machine performance (more FPS) and smoother controls.

- 3rd person view like it is now sucks balls for competitivness (PvP combat) which is an integral part of multiplayer games with a combat part like DayZ is.

- 3rd person view has to be seriously reworked if left in the game.

[SMLE 39]

I must be over tired KoS just posted something I understood and I agree with , I even gave beans .

good night gentlemen play nice

cheers

[hoik 415]

There is NO WAY around third person being used to view around corners unless it's removed, something i've personally advocated for if a complete and utter butchering of the TP camera is going to take place.  I also said, prior to seeing rocket say so, that attempting to "fix" the camera will be insanely hard and doing it in the right way will take quite a bit of effort.  It's far easier to just ditch the system entirely and piss off a huge portion of players, including streamers, for a system that pretty much any mainstream gamer will appreciate.

 

 

I agree with this. I think TPV will always be more susceptible to 'exploits' than FPV, and countering this by purely focusing on the players control/positioning of camera without also taking into account level design is IMO futile - the map will also need to take into account TPV and be designed to minimize potential exploits - this is why I see the attempt to 'fix' TPV will not be met with much success.

 

There is no point in putting a lot of effort into 'fixing' TPV if you end up with a gimped hybrid, which in the end will still offer (I have no doubt) some dubious tactics. FPV is obviously the easiest solution to this problem, but only in the way that it completely removes TPV...so it doesn't really fix it, just discounts it all together. So I can see how this gets on the nerves of the pro TPV.

 

But as TPV is going to stay, IMO, make it as fluid and immersive as possible while minimizing potential exploits - but keep it third person and don't gimp it to retardation. Secondly - put equal amounts of effort into improving the FPV experience, including a variety of stances such as in Arma 3. Twice the work, but fairs fair :P .

 

I think fans of FPV will have to start sticking to their convictions and actively seek out, play and encourage others to play FPV only servers when the SA comes out.

 

-------

 

Personally I don't see the need for separate hives - all gear that is obtained, no matter the kind of server be it TPV or FPV, will be done so on a level playing field... jumping between the two types of servers makes no difference in terms of taking an advantage from one server to another...

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

This is a chance to help develop a view mode not yet seen in a mainstream pvp game, I'd like to see a modified third person replace the present version and first person stay. As we seem unable or unwilling to properly discuss fixes to third (for pvp, I disagree that it it is exploitable around zombies simply because their aggro range is so indistinct) beyond what is already being looked at, I'm going to mention my problems with the first person view.

 

We all agree that while in first person there are absolutely no exploits to do with the view , but I find when playing in first that things seem very close, for instance when climbing a ladder it seems like my face is an inch away from the rungs rather than a foot away like it would be. A small detail, but part of the whole experience. Also, when prone in grass the inability to see what is ahead through it is unrealistic to me - there should at least be an action that raises the 'head' or camera POV to look over things (like if you raise your head in real life). The graphics seem to look more immersive in third, I'm not sure why but maybe the textures need reworking a little. Head bob is too exaggerated, I wouldn't want it removed but rather toned down and un-turnoffable. Lastly I'd like an easier way of looking around oneself to check the immediate vicinity.

 

Maybe other people have similar issues with it, it's definitley an inferior and more frustating (but not any harder) experience when compared with other FPS games I've played. View wise, it actually reminds me a bit of BF1942, a game from 2002.

Climbing ladders is terrible in FPV indeed. Also, grass does block the view too much when prone. The funny thing is, rocket's solution is going to make the latter problem worse now that everyone will be locked to FPV when prone. It's just another example why IMO he's approaching the problem the wrong way. TPV restictions are going to need a lot of testing and will inevitably bring other problems as well. Perhaps TPV is not "exploitable" around zombies right now in the mod, but what if/when their aggro range is fixed in SA?

Considering what Dean has said so far, it seems many of the proposed solutions posted on here would be impossible to do due to technical reasons. Whatever solution they do come up with will very likely not be very sophisticated. I'm also not convinced there WILL be first person only servers in SA which is why I wish people would stop repeating choice is good.

[SMLE 39]

Well, there's some stuff we won't have to agree upon because they're more or less fact:

- Only the 3rd person fans are happy right now.

- The most simple solution would be to just shut off 3rd person view. No coding time. No performance impact anywhere.

- Playing in 1st has to be improved anyway by improving machine performance (more FPS) and smoother controls.

- 3rd person view like it is now sucks balls for competitivness (PvP combat) which is an integral part of multiplayer games with a combat part like DayZ is.

- 3rd person view has to be seriously reworked if left in the game.

Mate a good post no name calling and you made your points well , good stuff , unfortunately I totally disagree with everything you said and I suspect I would not be the only one , point 1 is true , point 2 would cripple sales of the game hugely , points 3 4 and 5 are your opinion and I respect that but I don't agree .

cheers

[tommes 331]

Similar to that some of you here decided that the 3rd person view is the feature which should not be allowed to use.

Difference is, that some don't see it as game rule which could be apllied or not. As long as a rule applies to everyone, no one is in an advantage.

You just don't get it. TDP enabled allows for certain tactics that simply suck balls. We don't want it turned off for a quick fun round. We mostly wouldn't care if it wouldn't break the game to some extent.

I know, you may don't want to hear it but in fact your way out would be the ability to chose.

The problem is that others make the choice for us and we find ourselves to be (soft) forced to play along. How many times will this have to be explained to you?

This is one world. One boat. We are tied together. If we want it or not. It's like you choose to waste your environment with no regards. Your choice is messing it up for everybody close by too.

Devs: Build in a poll function which allows to change that rule on the fly based on what the player want or - the other way round, even way better - build in a function what allows admins to define rules on the fly. Because changeing the server config might be not the most convenient way to handle things. That's why you don't have enough variation in the server situation. They set the decission once and that's it. Player on the other hand do love variety. See that what worked for Battlefield back in those days (that the admin said "now other rules") doesn't work for DayZ. Noone would give a shit what he wrote in chat. So give them the tools to define them on the fly.

One hive. One set of rules. One world for all. That's the way DayZ was intended. Your idea only works in independent worlds. Your idea is presently represented with the loads of private hive servers, which are mostly totally screwed with crappy custom stuff. The result of give freedom of choice to server admins. Already explained here a couple million times...

[tommes 331]

Also, grass does block the view too much when prone.

Try that in real life. Make a picture of what you see in FPV! Please!

[tommes 331]

Mate a good post no name calling and you made your points well , good stuff , unfortunately I totally disagree with everything you said and I suspect I would not be the only one ,

You aren't the only one for sure...(I'm tempted to calling names again.)

point 1 is true , point 2 would cripple sales of the game hugely , points 3 4 and 5 are your opinion and I respect that but I don't agree .

cheers

Point 2 wouldn't do anything because it's a simple statement of a fact. Just turning it off is the simplest of all solutions. Sales do not matter in this.

Well, because you don't understand points 3 to 5 I'd like to call you names. Understand? It's like you say "I respect your points, but I don't."

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

Try that in real life. Make a picture of what you see in FPV! Please!

Yes, but you can adjust your head so not all grass is in your face. The obvious solution is different stances and the ability to raise your head a bit to look over grass or other objects. With the direction rocket has chosen though, this will probably never happen as they're going to spend that time making the TPV less flawed.

[Ken Bean 175]

You just don't get it. TDP enabled allows for certain tactics that simply suck balls. We don't want it turned off for a quick fun round. We mostly wouldn't care if it wouldn't break the game to some extent.

The problem is that others make the choice for us and we find ourselves to be (soft) forced to play along. How many times will this have to be explained to you?

This is one world. One boat. We are tied together. If we want it or not. It's like you choose to waste your environment with no regards. Your choice is messing it up for everybody close by too.

One hive. One set of rules. One world for all. That's the way DayZ was intended. Your idea only works in independent worlds. Your idea is presently represented with the loads of private hive servers, which are mostly totally screwed with crappy custom stuff. The result of give freedom of choice to server admins. Already explained here a couple million times...

 

Maybe I just don't get it. But is there a game out there which has that many variations of the core game like DayZ?

I sometimes have serious difficulties finding a DayZ version which is vanilla. And I most of the time want to play as vanilla as possible. But there obviously is a big userbase which enjoys custom rules and custom experiences. You could either wash them all away (also meaning losing loads of variety and maybe player types) resulting in remaining only the one version which has been released by the devs. Or build in some small room to customize certain rules. Don't overdo things, even small changes can make a huge difference.

 

Mind, that one of the main motivations for someone to set up a server is to set own rules and to customize certain things.

 

That 3rd person sucks balls is your opinion. Why are there so few server admins who seems to share your opinion? Their opinion is different from yours. Or maybe 1st person player are too lazy, selfish and egomaniacal in general to set up a server and they only demand  others to change instead. ;D

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Wayze 549]

Climbing ladders is terrible in FPV indeed. Also, grass does block the view too much when prone. The funny thing is, rocket's solution is going to make the latter problem worse now that everyone will be locked to FPV when prone. It's just another example why IMO he's approaching the problem the wrong way. TPV restictions are going to need a lot of testing and will inevitably bring other problems as well. Perhaps TPV is not "exploitable" around zombies right now in the mod, but what if/when their aggro range is fixed in SA?

Considering what Dean has said so far, it seems many of the proposed solutions posted on here would be impossible to do due to technical reasons. Whatever solution they do come up with will very likely not be very sophisticated. I'm also not convinced there WILL be first person only servers in SA which is why I wish people would stop repeating choice is good.

Climbing ladders in real life is also terrible indeed. You can not just watch over your back because you have to see the ladder. If you prone in grass why should you be able to see something? You are prone in the grass, the other guy does not see you, so why should you be able to see him? Exactly that is also a point which appears in real life.

You never can see someone if you don't have visual contact. If you can see him he should be able to see you, because that is how it works in real life and how it should work in DayZ to improve the immersion and the combat system.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Wayze

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Maybe I just don't get it. But is there a game out there which has that many variations of the core game like DayZ?

 

No, that's just it.  All of this variation and "choice" comes purely from the fact that DayZ is a mod.  Many of the things that we currently see as part of the game aren't design decisions at all, they're remnants of Arma2 which has a very different set of requirements.

 

When making an actual game from the ground up all of these things have to be considered.  For me that will be the strength of the SA and the thing that'll make it stand head and shoulders above any other mods we're likely to see.  The mod carries a hell of a lot of baggage, the SA doesn't have to.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Fraggle

[Wayze 549]

No, that's just it.  All of this variation and "choice" comes purely from the fact that DayZ is a mod.  Many of the things that we currently see as part of the game aren't design decisions at all, they're remnants of Arma2 which has a very different set of requirements.

 

When making an actual game from the ground up all of these things have to be considered.  For me that will be the strength of the SA and the thing that'll make it stand head and shoulders above any other mods we're likely to see.  The mod carries a hell of a lot of baggage, the SA doesn't have to.

Agreed. But I think the fact that admins are not able to decide over loot will undoubtly have the most impact on the gameplay. It will change the whole game into a completly new expirience (or old ;) ).

Edited August 28, 2013 by Wayze

[Ken Bean 175]

Maybe the community server thing is the root of all evil.

 

 Twisted, isn't it? You can't rely on the community in regards of server infrastructure and taking away all their freedom the same time.

 

  A solution for you 1st person only guys would be to set up your own server.

 

Well then, as I understand it right, many things can't be changed in the SA by server admins. Loot tables and aggro level are pretty much core elements of the game and I appreciate if they are fixed in general.

 

But in regards of 1st and 3rd person, you hardliner really need to rethink your position.

 

Calling 3rd person an exploit only is your fixated viewpoint. All that has been said in regards of unfair or whatever is not true. Objectively sth which applies for everyone the same on a server can't be unfair.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[RedNome 443]

I wonder how many of the 1st person brigade complaining about the lack of servers for their preferred play style have actually paid to have their own server online and actively garnered support from the other 1st person fans to get their servers full?

 

Just saying.