First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Heiduk 265]

Super Mario Brothers is one of the most succesfull games ever (if not the) and it's not in 1st person.

Super Mario Brothers is also ridiculously hard by modern standards and gave you a very limited view of the world around you. Kind of like..., oh never mind.

[SMLE 39]

Wayze

 

Though i agree with you completely in principle, Rocket however has stated that 3rd person will still exist in some form. 

 

I imagine that 1st person servers will still exist for those of us who want that experience but because the 3rd person view will undoubtedly remain i think we need to move onto to possible ways of reducing its exploitative nature. The discussion of how and why 1st is better than 3rd and vice versa has been a very circular discussion.

 

I think we need to move onto solutions, rather than rehash the same points over and over.

So if the 1st and 3rd person servers are still going to exist WHY do you 1st person view people want to change 3rd person view ? you will not even be playing on those servers if what you say is true .

But this thread is not about what is best for the game it is about a small group of people , a noise minority , trying to influence Mr Hall into basterdizing 3rd person view to a point where they hope more people will play 1st person view , their way , the proper way according to them .

 The vast silent majority play in 3rd person , fact , they are happy with what they have and are not here complaining , if you were truly interested in what is best for the game the only answer is separate servers for the two view styles , no more work involved its already there everybodys happy except maybe our squeaky hinge that can not except that their way is not the only way or even the best way .

Choice more fun than sux tunnies in a chully bun

cheers

[-Gews- 7443]

And btw, one of the oldest games of mankind is chess. A typical 3rd person top down game. What says your argument "it's in our genes" to this fact? The first ego shooter has been developped in? What other games came earlier? Face it: This is the typical nonsense of the 1st-person-Shooter-Fans, who do anything and everything to advertice their genre as the only one which has a right to be.

 

Chess and DayZ... bad analogy, chess would be closer to a map with everyone's positions on it.

 

 

The only real reason for third-person is so people can gawk at the character models and so people can do this:

 

[Wayze 549]

Wayze

 

Though i agree with you completely in principle, Rocket however has stated that 3rd person will still exist in some form. 

 

I imagine that 1st person servers will still exist for those of us who want that experience but because the 3rd person view will undoubtedly remain i think we need to move onto to possible ways of reducing its exploitative nature. The discussion of how and why 1st is better than 3rd and vice versa has been a very circular discussion.

 

I think we need to move onto solutions, rather than rehash the same points over and over.

There is no other solution than removing third person completly from the game.

 

What are you going to do? You will always be able to look behind walls and if you are not able to do that, nobody will play in third person because it would be just senseless. The problem is that Dean really thinks that most of us like third person. What I think is his main reason for third person:

The animations.

Simple, he worked so much at the animations, what would he need them for if you are just in first person mode? Believe me, Dean does want us to play in third person. To see the character with his cool clothes and unique animations for everything. The handcuff situation and how you lie on the ground. (btw I really hope you won't be able to see anything while unconcious)

And I think it is his personal preference. Even  if he knew most of us does not want it, and once he told us that he was making that game for the hardcore gamers no matter how many sells he gets, he will keep it in. And as you see most of us simply don't want it, we the hardcore players. I hope he will listen to the feedback, because the first thing I will report as a bug is seeing through walls. I really would enjoy the game much more if I could play it in first person. But as you can see there are simply no good first person servers and if there are there are not well visited...

 

 

 

Chess and DayZ... bad analogy, chess would be closer to a map with everyone's positions on it.

 

 

The only real reason for third-person is so people can gawk at the character models and so people can do this:

 

Exactly, and you can even gawk at you character in the inventory, that is the special feature about the SA. You really don't want to know how many people I killed on exact that position. It is godmode, nothing else, even a sniper on the hill is not able to kill you.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Wayze

[Ken Bean 175]

Chess and DayZ... bad analogy, chess would be closer to a map with everyone's positions on it.

 

 

The only real reason for third-person is so people can gawk at the character models and so people can do this:

 

It still amazes me that you guys call this an exploit. Looks totally legit, doesn't it? Yes I'm in perfect control over my avatar. Yes, I'm more than he. Everyone can see or do the same. Nope, it definitively makes you not invincible. The poor guy probably died the same day. Uh and sth I've learned: The whole towns are dangerous. It doesnt really makes a difference if theres one on the roof or in a bush. There are guns pointing into the towns from everywhere.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Wayze 549]

It still amazes me that you guys call this an exploit. Looks totally legit, doesn't it? Yes I'm in perfect control over my avatar. Yes, I'm more than he. Everyone can see or do the same. Nope, it definitively makes you not invincible. The poor guy probably died the same day.

Yes, it does not make you invincible if you a total retard. But if you got a little bit brains you can camp on that and never be killed. It is just stupid, it is TOTALLY unrealistic and it destroys the whole combat system of the game. The whole simulation is for nothing, because the main core element is missing.

[-Gews- 7443]

It still amazes me that you guys call this an exploit. Looks totally legit, doesn't it? Yes I'm in perfect control over my avatar. Yes, I'm more than he. Everyone can see or do the same. Nope, it definitively makes you not invincible. The poor guy probably died the same day.

 

Well, it amazes me that calls for improving third-person are labeled as an underhanded attempt to sway Rocket into "basterdizing 3rd person view".

[DemonGroover 8836]

So if the 1st and 3rd person servers are still going to exist WHY do you 1st person view people want to change 3rd person view ? you will not even be playing on those servers if what you say is true .

But this thread is not about what is best for the game it is about a small group of people , a noise minority , trying to influence Mr Hall into basterdizing 3rd person view to a point where they hope more people will play 1st person view , their way , the proper way according to them .

 The vast silent majority play in 3rd person , fact , they are happy with what they have and are not here complaining , if you were truly interested in what is best for the game the only answer is separate servers for the two view styles , no more work involved its already there everybodys happy except maybe our squeaky hinge that can not except that their way is not the only way or even the best way .

Choice more fun than sux tunnies in a chully bun

cheers

 

If we want this game to be authentic or realistic and fair,  then a compromise will have to happen and that is what Rocket is planning i think.  The current system for 3rd person is flawed and anyone who truly wants to play a game fairly has to accept this. 

 

A player should not be able to lie on a roof top completely hidden from view and be able to scan a town with 360 degree vision, all in complete safety. 

 

I want to play on full servers and if 3rd enabled means this is the only way then i will do so, even if no changes are made.  However, dont we agree that some aspects of the 3rd person view can be modified or made better?

 

What is proposed are fair changes to exploits which cannot be defended with logic.  Seeing over a wall whilst lying down is indefensible.  It can't and shouldn't happen. If you want to snipe me from a rooftop at least give me a fighting chance of seeing you before you magically jump up and shoot me because you have been watching me for 15 minutes while lying face down.

[Ken Bean 175]

Yes, it does not make you invincible if you a total retard. But if you got a little bit brains you can camp on that and never be killed.

Well you could use a granade.

 

It is just stupid, it is TOTALLY unrealistic and it destroys the whole combat system of the game. The whole simulation is for nothing, because the main core element is missing.

Not more than connecting and disconnecting. In real life he just couldn't stay there forever. And allow me to add that there has been examples in history where you had people camping in invulnerable spots. The only solution was to starve them out. Just see this as fortress... on a very important spot. Sounds familiar?

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Wayze 549]

If we want this game to be authentic or realistic and fair,  then a compromise will have to happen and that is what Rocket is planning i think.  The current system for 3rd person is flawed and anyone who truly wants to play a game fairly has to accept this. 

 

A player should not be able to lie on a roof top completely hidden from view and be able to scan a town with 360 degree vision, all in complete safety. 

 

I want to play on full servers and if 3rd enabled means this is the only way then i will do so, even if no changes are made.  However, dont we agree that some aspects of the 3rd person view can be modified or made better?

 

What is proposed are fair changes to exploits which cannot be defended with logic.  Seeing over a wall whilst lying down is indefensible.  It can't and shouldn't happen. If you want to snipe me from a rooftop at least give me a fighting chance of seeing you before you magically jump up and shoot me because you have been watching me for 15 minutes while lying face down.

There is simply no real way to change that, you will always be able to peek behind a wall, which is exactly the same as being on a roof. It is changed the whole combat system into a arcade game. It is not realistic in any way anymore. And let us be honest here, DayZ is pretty much about a authentic and realistic survival situation, besides the zombies, but anything else is trying to be so deep and realistic as no other game was before. But ironicly Dean Rocket Hall fails in realising that he missed the core element. He does not understand that third person is simply making this game into an arcade game, there is no real combat, just a game. The whole survival scenarion and then this. It changes the game into obviously being a game. You can see your character constantly which takes yourself out of the situation. You don't feel as involved as in first person. I don't know why the f*ck Dean does not see that.

 

 

 

Well you could use a granade.

Not more than connecting and disconnecting. In real life he just couldn't stay there forever.

Oh sure, ofcourse I will use a granade before even knowing that somebody is f*cking camping on that house! Do you want to use 20 granades before you can even go on the streets because on every roof there could be a player? What the hell? You forgot that the guy does see you, but you don't see him. If he is smart he kills you before you even notice him. So no granade and I really don't think you will find a granade that easy in SA.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Wayze

[Jamz 253]

 

It doesn't solve the issue at all. Most people switch to first person when in combat/shooting anyway, it's prior to being in combat that is the problem with people observing everything from complete safety.

 

But wasn't this at least partially addressed with going FPV when prone? If that's not enough then how about adding that shoulder cam view displayed in an earlier post, that pretty much completely does away with the 'camera on a stick' exploit of third person. I don't really see how you could exploit the view at all after those four measures? Let me know if I'm wrong.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Jamz

[SMLE 39]

If we want this game to be authentic or realistic and fair,  then a compromise will have to happen and that is what Rocket is planning i think.  The current system for 3rd person is flawed and anyone who truly wants to play a game fairly has to accept this. 

 

A player should not be able to lie on a roof top completely hidden from view and be able to scan a town with 360 degree vision, all in complete safety. 

 

I want to play on full servers and if 3rd enabled means this is the only way then i will do so, even if no changes are made.  However, dont we agree that some aspects of the 3rd person view can be modified or made better?

 

What is proposed are fair changes to exploits which cannot be defended with logic.  Seeing over a wall whilst lying down is indefensible.  It can't and shouldn't happen. If you want to snipe me from a rooftop at least give me a fighting chance of seeing you before you magically jump up and shoot me because you have been watching me for 15 minutes while lying face down.

Sorry but I had to lol using the words authentic and realistic in a game about a zombie apocalypse is a bit odd but I get your point , again nothing has to change weather it is realistic or otherwise is for the player to decide , pick your server for the experience you like , you can call 3rd person features "exploits" all you like it doesn't make it so , youll be calling me a terrorist next :P .

    Why do you worry so much about how other people like to play , their happy , a very large % of them love 3rd person view = bums on seats = money for Mr Hall to continue development of the game .

    It looks very much to me like some people here would rather risk destroying the game than let people choose their own play style .

Choice the thinking mans option

[Ken Bean 175]

Oh sure, ofcourse I will use a granade before even knowing that somebody is f*cking camping on that house! Do you want to use 20 granades before you can even go on the streets because on every roof there could be a player? What the hell? You forgot that the guy does see you, but you don't see him. If he is smart he kills you before you even notice him. So no granade and I really don't think you will find a granade that easy in SA.

The dude on the roof is not more in advantage than the one who wears night vision googles in a pitch black night. Would you also insist in removing NVGs?

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[SMLE 39]

Well, it amazes me that calls for improving third-person are labeled as an underhanded attempt to sway Rocket into "basterdizing 3rd person view".

I'm sorry if the truth hurts but read this thread , really read it and tell me I am wrong .

Split servers and everybody is happy but no that's not good enough ?

Choice a way forward

[Wayze 549]

Sorry but I had to lol using the words authentic and realistic in a game about a zombie apocalypse is a bit odd but I get your point , again nothing has to change weather it is realistic or otherwise is for the player to decide , pick your server for the experience you like , you can call 3rd person features "exploits" all you like it doesn't make it so , youll be calling me a terrorist next :P .

    Why do you worry so much about how other people like to play , their happy , a very large % of them love 3rd person view = bums on seats = money for Mr Hall to continue development of the game .

    It looks very much to me like some people here would rather risk destroying the game than let people choose their own play style .

Choice the thinking mans option

My godness, how many times do we have to explain to you? There is simply no good first person server, because it is either not well visited or it is like 10FPS. The people play third person servers because they feel saver, it is an instinct. They will not stop to do that, even if they know they would have more fun with first person, because their subconscious is not letting them. It is like people getting fat, the body is telling them they want more, but actually it does nothing good for them. However, 10.000 years ago this feature was really useful. The same as wanting to observe everything. As long as people got the choice of feeling save and not feeling save, they will choose the save way.

[DemonGroover 8836]

SMLE

 

I get that zombies aren't realistic and that point has been made countless times in this forum when arguments or rebuttals run thin.  It isn't the point. Remember this video is just as much about Arma than DayZ.  The same exploits are used in a military simulation.  And that's the key word  - simulation.

 

You cannot honestly defend something that gives one player an advantage over another that isn't based on skill or luck but by a perspective.

 

Like i said,  to scope a town from a rooftop should incorporate risk.  You have to get up and peek over a wall, thus exposing yourself for a fraction of time - at least giving someone a chance of spotting you if they are scoping the rooftops like most good players will. At the moment the only time a player needs to get up is the moment of shooting where they can aim and fire in a second.

 

I am not saying remove 3rd person - we were past that argument the moment Rocket said 3rd person is to stay.  But the exploits need to and i am sure will be looked at by the devs.

 

Perhaps there needs to be 3 levels of servers

 

Hardcore  -1st only

Normal -  A modified 3rd enabled (ie 1st for prone, closer camera)

Easy - 3rd person as is

 

Lets just state it how it is and let the people make their choice since you seem to be the great advocate of democracy.

Edited August 28, 2013 by DemonGroover

[wild_man 4442]

 

 

Hardcore  -1st only

Normal -  A modified 3rd enabled (ie 1st for prone, closer camera)

Easy - 3rd person as is

 

 

yes!!! :beans:

 

this one is ok for me, is ok for 'choice' guys and 'fun' guys :D

 

make separate hives also :thumbsup:

[Ken Bean 175]

My godness, how many times do we have to explain to you? There is simply no good first person server, because it is either not well visited or it is like 10FPS. The people play third person servers because they feel saver, it is an instinct. They will not stop to do that, even if they know they would have more fun with first person, because their subconscious is not letting them. It is like people getting fat, the body is telling them they want more, but actually it does nothing good for them. However, 10.000 years ago this feature was really useful. The same as wanting to observe everything. As long as people got the choice of feeling save and not feeling save, they will choose the save way.

Well maybe they have more fun there, whats the problem? Yes tactics is also sth which lets people feel more save. Also having a weapon in a zomby apocalypse feels more save. Having antibiotics feels more save. And last but not least, playing games feels more save (you don't seriously die). But correct me if I'm wrong: You feel more save if the 3rd person view is being removed, right?

[DemonGroover 8836]

The dude on the roof is not more in advantage than the one who wears night vision googles in a pitch black night. Would you also insist in removing NVGs?

 

Well NVG's are actually real. A God like view of the world from above your head is not.

[SmashT 10907]

But wasn't this at least partially addressed with going FPV when prone? If that's not enough then how about adding that shoulder cam view displayed in an earlier post, that pretty much completely does away with the 'camera on a stick' exploit of third person. I don't really see how you could exploit the view at all after those four measures? Let me know if I'm wrong.

 

I actually think the lower/fixed over the shoulder cam and first person when prone ideas are pretty solid, forcing first person when in combat though not so much.

[Ken Bean 175]

Well NVG's are actually real. A God like view of the world from above your head is not.

But the 3rd person view gives you a better self and overall awareness because 1st person is not even close to reality. Mind, you don't smell or feel anything in the game, you only have 2 senses instead of five, your body and your avatar connect only via mouse and keyboard... and the quality of your 2 remaining senses is striped down.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[SMLE 39]

My godness, how many times do we have to explain to you? There is simply no good first person server, because it is either not well visited or it is like 10FPS. The people play third person servers because they feel saver, it is an instinct. They will not stop to do that, even if they know they would have more fun with first person, because their subconscious is not letting them. It is like people getting fat, the body is telling them they want more, but actually it does nothing good for them. However, 10.000 years ago this feature was really useful. The same as wanting to observe everything. As long as people got the choice of feeling save and not feeling save, they will choose the save way.

Oh dear , once again an example of "my play style is not popular enough" so ill make everybody elses game bad so they come play my way .

Sorry mate but it doesn't work that way you cant force people to like things you like you will simply drive them away .

The reasons behind why some people like 1st or 3rd person view don't matter , you want to keep as many people happy as possible and most like 3rd person view .

Choice the most fun you can have with your pants on .

[terrvik 2409]

It should be:

Normal - FPV only

Easy - A modified TPV

Everything else off in both cases.

Hardcore should be normal in DayZ-land. :)

[wild_man 4442]

 

Hardcore should be normal in DayZ-land. :)

is good point this one :thumbsup:  :)

[Ken Bean 175]

It should be:

Normal - FPV only

Easy - A modified TPV

Everything else off in both cases.

Hardcore should be normal in DayZ-land. :)

Thats nonsense. Why the heck you think I want to play easy mode?!