First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[-Gews- 7443]

For me - restrict prone to 1st person.  This instantly gets rid of the camping rooftop sniper lying on a roof.  If he wants to camp he will now have to do it crouching.

 

Not bad, not bad...

[Jamz 253]

I would suggest forcing first person when in combat (ie when the symbol is flashing), it would mean that once in combat with another player you would both be locked in 1st person until it ends. This would count with zombies too.

[iashford 73]

Why don't they make mandatory polls before you start playing/prior to character creation? That way the people actually playing are having to give feedback. Just a pop-up with 'Do you prefer: third person, first person, both'?. I wouldn't limit it to just the TPV/FPV of course. It's an effective way to get everyone's opinions who are currently playing the game without flooding it with interested people who don't even have the game yet.

Perhaps an 'additional comments' section

Edited August 27, 2013 by I.Ash

[terrvik 2409]

For me - restrict prone to 1st person.  This instantly gets rid of the camping rooftop sniper lying on a roof.  If he wants to camp he will now have to do it crouching.

 

Yes please. Also put the camera closer, far away enough to se most of the character but close enough to minimize how much you can see around you and especially corners. Then severely restrict how much you can tilt the camera to make it harder to get close to a wall or obstacle and see what's on the other side.

 

What about if you only can attack (gun or melee) when in first? This would restrict TPV to be used when travelling.

 

EDIT: Oh, and by the way! Question time! What is everyones opinion on how status effects should be handled? Currently the shake can be ignored by going into third. It would be nice to see some other stuff in the future, like motorcycle helmets limiting the FOV but this is difficult to accomplish with two different perspectives in mind.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Terrorviktor

[iashford 73]

I would suggest forcing first person when in combat (ie when the symbol is flashing), it would mean that once in combat with another player you would both be locked in 1st person until it ends. This would count with zombies too.

Yes, but then you get the issue of corner exploiting without having gone into combat yet. Or you know there's a player around cause you suddenly go first person. It'd make exploiting easier

[DemonGroover 8836]

Yes, but then you get the issue of corner exploiting without having gone into combat yet. Or you know there's a player around cause you suddenly go first person. It'd make exploiting easier

 

Well combat would only start if someone fires a shot at you or you fire.  I don't think we want a system where you are instantly changed to 1st person because another player is closeby. 

 

The issue i see is you would know you have escaped or killed a player if you can jump back into 3rd person again.

 

Insofar as effects, i figure any effect should be identical in 1st or 3rd. The camera should shake no matter what view.

[Ken Bean 175]

And your point is? With 3rd person view the observer has true invisibility from almost any spot his potential targets can use. A real life sniper is never really invisible. He is camouflaged.

Btw, there was an endless discussion about lame snipers, just sitting around and blasting fresh spawns running into their crosshairs...and now you are using those FOR your case? How lame can this even get?

The longer this thread goes the more I despise 3rd person whiners. And my starting point was already low...

What about that?

http://youtu.be/sCbrCocprE0

Keep in mind, that in a town you have a massive amount of "built in" hideouts and corners. A sniper carmouflaging his head as being a smokestack while "openly" watching you running around is not a scenario which is unrealistic.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Ken Bean

[droznig 20]

Yeah, but I mean compared to real life. In rl you have way better chances to hide. You have not similar buildings everywhere with exact same shapes. A sniper could tarn his head easily like a smokestak or sth. You couldnt tell the difference until you are very close or until he moves. Or he just would snipe from the window of the floor under the roof out of the dark. Sometimes I have the feeling that folks forget how many possibilities there are in rl. In DayZ all buildings are kind of empty, all types look the same, many shapes are repeating.

 

Irl, a sniper would need to move his scope or binocs to keep an eye on you and check you out, that movement is usually what gives them away, a sniper sitting still far enough away from a window to be completely concealed will have a very limited view of a very limited area, the closer he gets to the window, the wider his fov to the outside is but greater chance of being seen. Picking the perfect window which gives the exact view you need from a great enough distance to be safe is much different from picking any window and having the full fov regardless. Same with bushes, you can be completely hidden only looking down through a gap in the bushes, but that will be a limited view and you will be required to move to track targets outside of a very limited area. Movement is what gives snipers away, with 3dp, no movement whatsoever is required to gain a complete and impossible view form complete concealment.

 

Besides why are we talking about real life, we should be talking about what is and is not good for the SA, real life should not really come into play so much, just what works for the game itself. Comparing to real life is not really constructive.

 

Still a miniscule fraction of the Dayz player base, so unfortunately these results are largely meaningless in the grand scheme of things I'm afraid.

 

Find a way to poll the entire Dayz player base and it's obvious the results would be totally different, you know it, I know it.

 

I don't think that's the case at all, I explained this before but will try to be brief, it's human nature to abhor being treated unfairly and try to even the odds, this creates a situation where if other people who you can interact with can use a mechanic that gives them an advantage it is human nature to desire to even the odds, and so despite them prefering fpv, they go to tpv servers because they know people from there can kill them even on a fpv server after they have the gear. It's not fair and people naturally gravitate to a state of neutrality, the only way that is possible is for people who prefer 3dp to move to fpv servers. 

 

Psychology of cheating is very interesting in that regard. This video is brief but it touches on the phenomenon a little, but there are plenty of articles and studies to go with it. People will do things they don't like but feel justified in doing if it conveys an advantage to them, despite them not liking doing it and knowing it is wrong if they know other people do it, it justifies it in their minds, subconsciously.

 

[Heiduk 265]

What is everyones opinion on how status effects should be handled? Currently the shake can be ignored by going into third. It would be nice to see some other stuff in the future, like motorcycle helmets limiting the FOV but this is difficult to accomplish with two different perspectives in mind.

Status effects should be applied the same in both 1st and 3rd person. Do broken windshields count as a status effect?

As for helmets, I basically imagine the same effect as NVGs minus the color shift. The FOV is the same in 1st and 3rd person so reductions should be handled equally.

Also obligatory quote from this weeks Breaking Bad:

"I see a kid with a bicycle helmet on, I wanna smack the shit out of him. Like, for his own good."

[spinager 152]

Don't know if you guys keep up with Arma3 mods but I figured you might like this mod.It allows 3rd person but restricts peeking around corners to the characters actual line of sight.

 

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162139-Third-Person-Limiter-Thing

omg, hope that person irons out everything they can iron out. 

[Jamz 253]

 

The issue i see is you would know you have escaped or killed a player if you can jump back into 3rd person again.

 

 

Well the view would return to third when the icon stopped flashing, meaning you hadn't necessarily escaped the other player but there had been no conflict for an amount of time. This, combined with the 1st person when prone and perhaps limiting the camera height so you can't see over walls would cover a few exploited situations I think? Can't think of a negative issue with this but I'm open for criticism of course.

[Ken Bean 175]

Irl, a sniper would need to move his scope or binocs to keep an eye on you and check you out, that movement is usually what gives them away, a sniper sitting still far enough away from a window to be completely concealed will have a very limited view of a very limited area, the closer he gets to the window, the wider his fov to the outside is but greater chance of being seen. Picking the perfect window which gives the exact view you need from a great enough distance to be safe is much different from picking any window and having the full fov regardless. Same with bushes, you can be completely hidden only looking down through a gap in the bushes, but that will be a limited view and you will be required to move to track targets outside of a very limited area. Movement is what gives snipers away, with 3dp, no movement whatsoever is required to gain a complete and impossible view form complete concealment.

 

Besides why are we talking about real life, we should be talking about what is and is not good for the SA, real life should not really come into play so much, just what works for the game itself. Comparing to real life is not really constructive.

Well, if you only need to observe a certain spot, you dont need to move your head that much. The weapon usually is carmouflaged as well and they get their own "ghillie". Usually they take just some material (gras or whatever) and bind it around the weapon so that it looks like vegetation (which also moves a bit,depending on the wind). A closed window + shadow makes a perfect sniper spot. A good courtain almost hides you completely.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Ken Bean

[SmashT 10907]

Well the view would return to third when the icon stopped flashing, meaning you hadn't necessarily escaped the other player but there had been no conflict for an amount of time. This, combined with the 1st person when prone and perhaps limiting the camera height so you can't see over walls would cover a few exploited situations I think? Can't think of a negative issue with this but I'm open for criticism of course.

 

It doesn't solve the issue at all. Most people switch to first person when in combat/shooting anyway, it's prior to being in combat that is the problem with people observing everything from complete safety.

Edited August 27, 2013 by SmashT

[droznig 20]

Well, if you only need to observe a certain spot, you dont need to move your head that much. The weapon usually is carmouflaged as well and they get their own "ghillie". Usually they take just some material (gras or whatever) and bind it around the weapon so that it looks like vegetation (which also moves a bit,depending on the wind). A closed window + shadow makes a perfect sniper spot. A good courtain almost hides you completely.

 

But my point is, with a good curtain, your view is limited to the tiny crack, if you are too close to the curtain you fill the gap where it was not filled before. But like I said, there is no point talking about what is realistic, we should only be talking about what is best for the game, real life has no bearing on what might be best for the SA. Good for inspiration but it shouldn't be used as an argument in and of itself.

Edited August 27, 2013 by droznig

[Ken Bean 175]

It doesn't solve the issue at all. Most people switch to first person when in combat/shooting anyway, it's prior to being in combat that is the problem with people observing everything from complete safety.

Which absolutely is realistic. You can assume that behind certain curtains may stand a whole team with binoculars watching you without that you get the slightest idea. True fact.

[droznig 20]

Which absolutely is realistic. You can assume that behind certain curtains may stand a whole team with binoculars watching you without that you get the slightest idea. True fact.

Through a closed curtain?

[Ken Bean 175]

Through a closed curtain?

absolutely

[droznig 20]

absolutely

How can you see through a curtain.....

[Wayze 549]

DayZ is about immersion. Without that, the game would be a simple shooter. Adding third person removes a hell lot of amount of immersion. I really don't know what is the problem in first person. Obviously games in first person work excelent. Half Life, Borderlands, Battlefield, Call of Duty even Skyrim is primarly a first person game and would work totally fine without the third person.

In Skyrim they add the third person because the game is a RPG and there are many people out there who just like to play a RPG in 3rd person. But, now you wonder, why is there no third person in all these other games? Why are they so successful? Maybe one of the main reasons is that these games are actually first person shooters, not third person shooters. So, the poll we saw last time is the evidence that the hardcore gamers don't want third person and the fact that first person shooters are way more successful then third person shooters is the evidence that even the casual gamer group does not like third person.

But, as DayZ is a game about progress and pure survival, there is a instinct (I will call it like that) in us human which activates itself when being in that survival situation. You know, it is just a game, but you know for yourself that you get adrenalin when having very valuable gear and being shot at. The instinct which I mean is the reason why we humans are so successful, we always try the easiest way. The more we know about our enviorment the better. That is why we human walk on two feet, it was only to see preditors in high grass. If you stand up, you have an excellent overwatch. Ironicly, this is a feature of us humans, it is natural. It is in our DNA.

But the problem is, that we use that instinct in a game. The instinct of desiring information about what is happening around us. This instinct is the reason why the people like to play third person. It is not because they enjoy it more, it is not because they are handicapped, it is just because they feel saver. Like I said, this is a human desire, it is completly naturall. But as we all know, first person is way more immersive than third person. You don't feel save at all.

Sure, here in this forum are some people who just like to play third person, yes that is subjective. If you like third person you can go and play ghost recon future soldier or some othergames. But like I said, it is not that the most people who play DayZ like third person more than first person, it is the simple fact that their subconious does not want them to play first person, because it is more dangerous.

As you see, simple facts:

First person games are WAY more successful than third person games

Hardcore DayZ Community does not want third person in any form in the game

 

These two facts, they are simple, but they are clear. There is no reason for having third person. The only thing is reaches is breaking the immersion and fun for every player (besides the low percantage which likes third person really much), because even if a normal casual player wants to play first person, his subconsious will get him always (or most of the times) to play the easier, saver way.

This is especially a factor in DayZ because in DayZ you actuall feel like in a survival situation, you feel as if it was real. You know it is not, but you instinct are activated (maybe not for all of us, but especially for new players).

 

I really, really hope Rocket reads what we write here...

Edited August 27, 2013 by Wayze

[wild_man 4442]

snip

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

Well the view would return to third when the icon stopped flashing, meaning you hadn't necessarily escaped the other player but there had been no conflict for an amount of time. This, combined with the 1st person when prone and perhaps limiting the camera height so you can't see over walls would cover a few exploited situations I think? Can't think of a negative issue with this but I'm open for criticism of course.

I'm a fan of the idea. I posted about it before and although people rightly thought it's not the solution to the problem, I think it could work well but ONLY if used with other TPV restrictions such as FPV when prone, closer camera when crouch running, perhaps no leaning or freelook in TPV etc. Obviously it still wouldn't be perfect but the actual firefights would be more tactical, suppressive fire would actually work for instance. Again, by itself the idea is not very useful but in addition to other anti exploit measures it could work. Most people only use FPV for shooting but still switch to TPV during combat to exploit the TP camera view.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Rista

[DemonGroover 8836]

Wayze

 

Though i agree with you completely in principle, Rocket however has stated that 3rd person will still exist in some form. 

 

I imagine that 1st person servers will still exist for those of us who want that experience but because the 3rd person view will undoubtedly remain i think we need to move onto to possible ways of reducing its exploitative nature. The discussion of how and why 1st is better than 3rd and vice versa has been a very circular discussion.

 

I think we need to move onto solutions, rather than rehash the same points over and over.

Edited August 27, 2013 by DemonGroover

[SmashT 10907]

How can you see through a curtain.....

 

or through a brick wall, or over rooftop, around a corner without peaking over....

Edited August 28, 2013 by SmashT

[Heiduk 265]

Until the game provides "real life" hidey holes...

A real life sniper is never really invisible...

Irl, a sniper would need to move his scope or binocs to keep an eye on you and check you out...

A closed window + shadow makes a perfect sniper spot...

Can we please keep the leet sniper slap fighting to a minimum. That is an entirely different 50 page thread. Hmm, I haven't seen a good one of those in awhile.

 

But like I said, there is no point talking about what is realistic, we should only be talking about what is best for the game, real life has no bearing on what might be best for the SA.

This is the bottom line right here. Design decisions should be driven by what makes the game better. Period.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Heiduk

[Ken Bean 175]

How can you see through a curtain.....

Wall hack. ;D

 

DayZ is about immersion. Without that, the game would be a simple shooter. Adding third person removes a hell lot of amount of immersion. I really don't know what is the problem in first person. Obviously games in first person work excelent. Half Life, Borderlands, Battlefield, Call of Duty even Skyrim is primarly a first person game and would work totally fine without the third person.

In Skyrim they add the third person because the game is a RPG and there are many people out there who just like to play a RPG in 3rd person. But, now you wonder, why is there no third person in all these other games? Why are they so successful? Maybe one of the main reasons is that these games are actually first person shooters, not third person shooters. So, the poll we saw last time is the evidence that the hardcore gamers don't want third person and the fact that first person shooters are way more successful then third person shooters is the evidence that even the casual gamer group does not like third person.

But, as DayZ is a game about progress and pure survival, there is a instinct (I will call it like that) in us human which activates itself when being in that survival situation. You know, it is just a game, but you know for yourself that you get adrenalin when having very valuable gear and being shot at. The instinct which I mean is the reason why we humans are so successful, we always try the easiest way. The more we know about our enviorment the better. That is why we human walk on two feet, it was only to see preditors in high grass. If you stand up, you have an excellent overwatch. Ironicly, this is a feature of us humans, it is natural. It is in our DNA.

But the problem is, that we use that instinct in a game. The instinct of desiring information about what is happening around us. This instinct is the reason why the people like to play third person. It is not because they enjoy it more, it is not because they are handicapped, it is just because they feel saver. Like I said, this is a human desire, it is completly naturall. But as we all know, first person is way more immersive than third person. You don't feel save at all.

Sure, here in this forum are some people who just like to play third person, yes that is subjective. If you like third person you can go and play ghost recon future soldier or some othergames. But like I said, it is not that the most people who play DayZ like third person more than first person, it is the simple fact that their subconious does not want them to play first person, because it is more dangerous.

As you see, simple facts:

First person games are WAY more successful than third person games

Hardcore DayZ Community does not want third person in any form in the game

 

These two facts, they are simple, but they are clear. There is no reason for having third person. The only thing is reaches is breaking the immersion and fun for every player (besides the low percantage which likes third person really much), because even if a normal casual player wants to play first person, his subconsious will get him always (or most of the times) to play the easier, saver way.

This is especially a factor in DayZ because in DayZ you actuall feel like in a survival situation, you feel as if it was real. You know it is not, but you instinct are activated (maybe not for all of us, but especially for new players).

 

I really, really hope Rocket reads what we write here...

That's not true, its your preference. Games are succesfull because they are well done. Super Mario Brothers is one of the most successful games ever (if not the) and it's not in 1st person. So your argument is not valid and doesn't proof a thing. The gaming industry at one point started to develop first person shooter and the entire genre has become very successful. First person shooter are, the name already hints it, 1st person games by definition. They sell very well and yes, for some of us this domination is tiresome, because if you know one, you kind of know them all.

DayZ started to make sth different and they did well.

You are a fist person shooter fan, I suppose, and you probably made the 1st person view to your religion.

And btw, one of the oldest games of mankind is chess. A typical 3rd person top down game. What says your argument "it's in our genes" to this fact? The first ego shooter has been developped in? What other games came earlier? Face it: This is the typical nonsense of the 1st-person-Shooter-Fans, who do anything and everything to advertice their genre as the only one which has a right to be.

You also can say that the desire to play a game is the desire to leave your role in which you are bound physically and to advance to sth beyond. To play after other rules as which were dictaded by your enviroment. Its clearly not the desire to cheat or to make it easy alone. Thats your interpretation. And our games, especially their rules and "gameplay" like 1st or 3rd person, are not coded into the DNA in any way. They have an entirely own logic, which surprisingly is very mathematical in most cases.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean