First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Ken Bean 175]

I'm pretty certain that the 1st person vs 3rd person discussion is a pvp thing. I do no pvp at all and I dont have anny issues with 3rd person. I just love it all the way. Traveling long distances in 1st person is an incedible pita to me. (Even with turned off head bob.)

Edit

In order for a game to be fair for all, it should apply the same opportunities to everyone. Even with 3rd person it applies the same possibilities for everyone, which sometimes occurs unfair situations, but which does not mean that the possibilities of any player using 3rd person to exploit is not equal

Would agree.

Btw, altering the FOV in 1st person only modes would be no advantage?

Edited August 25, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Feral (DayZ) 622]

one issue that is always being raised by the community is KoS play style.

 

Rocket talks about his anti game ethos, well there is nothing further away from that ethos than 3rd person.

 

I made some posts in another thread which are relevant to this discussion, I quote here.

 

want to reduce KOS?

 

remove 3rd person.

 

watch the city campers flee to the woods once the ability to exploit the maze of walls, doorways, stairwells, rooftops, windows and corners disappears.

 

also the lack of fir tree light bending will force players out in the country to think more carefully about initiating a gun fight.

He will need to expose himself to even spot another player, returning real fear and tension to all combat situations and removing the light hearted comedy nature of pvp with 3rd person.

 

...of course removing the ability to exploit the environment will reduce KoS gameplay simply by making it more risky to attempt and more difficult to pull off.

 

...also I don't focus on 'the city', removing 3rd person will drastically affect pvp and KoS all over the map.

 

Edited August 25, 2013 by (MUC) Feral

[Jamz 253]

I think they tried taking the making things a bit harder route when zombies were buffed, but they got whined back to easy again because some players found them too difficult to deal with. Fair enough, but if that's acceptable then being against the complete removal of third person is equally acceptable. All opinions should be considered equally.

 

Sometimes, for a forum of balanced individuals, that mantra of 'it's a sandbox game you can play as you want' sounds a little hollow...

[JESUSARIUS REX (DayZ) 163]

I see people don't like third, but all the people saying its and exploit and was put in for no reason are completely wrong. The whole reason is to provide a more life like situational awareness. Whenever I play arms only in 1st, I always feel as though I have way less info on where my body is. Like if you lay in a bush IRL, you can tell if your gun is sticking out. You can't do that on a 2d screen. So you may think your hidden, but your big as gun could be sticking out. It helps with situational awareness, and that's why BI includes it in arma.

[Fonebook 126]

The elephant in the room is that most players do not want to play DayZ as designed.

 

So, as I have seen mentioned by others, does this now mean there will also be 1000 cars in the SA? Are we going to be able to self bloodbag in the SA? The debug monitor seems popular and tons of people complained when it left, is it coming back in the SA? Are we going to have a world spilling over with military weaponry? Will the infection be a meaningless non-issue with antibiotics everywhere? Are there going to be care packages raining from the sky? Are you going to be able to smelt tank traps into shipping containers?

 

The original concept of DayZ, and the way the vanilla plays, is something most players cannot stomach. Just look at the server populations. It will be very sad if a silent majority comes in and muscles the "anti" right out of this game. I have said before I would still play if TPV is not removed, but I exploit it like everybody else because the FPV servers are all empty. More important than having the view restricted is having others to play with. However, the realization that, through this discussion, there is official support for gamey use of TPV is quite disheartening.

 

The real question is, if TPV is left in just to appease the player base, what other crucial aspects of the game are going to have to be compromised to keep the masses happy?

[Tempus (DayZ) 1062]

1. I don't understand why there is so much anger and hate in this thread. Surely an intense discussion can be civilised and polite, too.

 

2. I agree with every point made why first person makes for a more intense, enjoyable gameplay.

 

3. I don't agree third person view should be removed, I don't even think it needs to be fixed or reworked.

 

Not trying to bullshit or be counterproductive, I just can't see why this can't remain a server-side option. This thread and the posts it contains proof a demand for first person only servers, why shouldn't there be enough available?

 

Is third person view "broken" in some way and does it offer unfair advantages? It certainly does. Personally, I don't much care for multi-vehicle and extra-loot servers too, as they "cheapen" the gameplay in my opinion, but why should I want them removed? In no way am I forced to play on these servers, and I don't. Dean seems like a fairly independent and intelligent guy to me, why should these servers existing change his vision and the way the game evolves at all?

 

I believe the gamers to be mature and old enough to make their own decisions, and even if they aren't, it is absolutely not my responsibility or duty to educate them, even if I believe the way they play to be "worse" than my own.

 

Whatever reason people have to play the way they want to, even if it is because of cheaper gameplay, let them. I would even go so far as to allow "fun" servers with grenade launchers with unlimited ammo, the ability to transport anywhere, whatever. Of course, I wouldn't play the game on them, because the gameplay they offer would be incredibly stupid and lame to me, but I'm not forced to. On the contrary, this would let people who prefer that way of gaming stay far away from the servers I would attend.

 

I can see no harm in letting it stay the way it is. The more support the product gets, the better. Even if the game would be flooded with 1337-CoD-ub0r-kiddies, as some protective types seem to believe (which I can't see happening), I see no reason for Dean to suddenly let this change the way he develops the game.

[tommes 331]

The many are often not right. Sometimes they have to be forced to do the right thing.

If ppl can't adapt to 1st person only, I wouldn't miss those lamers.

But as long as there's 3rd person active on a server I'll use it as well because I hate being at a disadvantage.

Edited August 25, 2013 by tommes

[Tempus (DayZ) 1062]

The many are often not right.

 

I agree, that's why I prefer first person view.

I just can't see people playing third person servers affecting first person gameplay, given there will be enough first person only servers available (which this thread seems to be proof of).

 

Sometimes they have to be forced to do the right thing.

 

I respectfully disagree.

[amradude 289]

1. I don't understand why there is so much anger and hate in this thread. Surely an intense discussion can be civilised and polite, too.

 

2. I agree with every point made why first person makes for a more intense, enjoyable gameplay.

 

3. I don't agree third person view should be removed, I don't even think it needs to be fixed or reworked.

 

Not trying to bullshit or be counterproductive, I just can't see why this can't remain a server-side option. This thread and the posts it contains proof a demand for first person only servers, why shouldn't there be enough available?

 

I think some hardcore 1st person view only players will never be happy with 1st person only servers even though it gives them everything they want.Because some of them want to force everyone to play the game their way, not just on 1st person only servers but all the servers.This is the problem

 

I'm really glad Rocket is keeping TPV in and reworking it.The hardcore FPV players are gonna have to go to their own servers and deal with it,leaving the regular Day-Z players alone on their servers.

 

Everyone will be happy and having fun, except the people that want to force a play style onto the whole Day-Z community, those people will be very,very sad.

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

I think 3rd and 1st should be improved, but neither removed. Sadly, these blood thirsty lichens can't stand for compromise. Its like American politics, while us Moderates may have the answers, the bickering Right and Left want to silence the center to keep us divided and have everything go their way.

[tommes 331]

I respectfully disagree.

 

So you think laws and rules should be removed?

 

The thing is, if you leave room for exploiting the game the game will be exploited by at least some players. That will lead to more players using the same exploits. In a competitive 1st person shooter 3rd person view would be considered an exploit just as clipping through walls.

Players now think of 3dp as some integral part of the game they are entitled to use. That is both wrong and bad.

Of course those players will be pissed if their little pet is taken away. They should remember though that it never should have been there in the first place.

They are pissed because they are taken out of their comfort zone. I think they have to be thrown in the cold water and learn to swim without aides. If you can swim you never go back to using aides and you laugh about everybody doing that.

 

Btw you can't complain about stuff breaking immersion and then use 3rd person! Period.

[tommes 331]

I think 3rd and 1st should be improved, but neither removed. Sadly, these blood thirsty lichens can't stand for compromise. Its like American politics, while us Moderates may have the answers, the bickering Right and Left want to silence the center to keep us divided and have everything go their way.

 

Moderation is not always the answer or do you want water in your beer?

Wait...you're american? Then your beer is already screwed. ^^

[Heiduk 265]

I'm pretty certain that the 1st person vs 3rd person discussion is a pvp thing. I do no pvp at all and I dont have anny issues with 3rd person. I just love it all the way.

 

This argument always gets brought up in these threads but I don't think it's nearly that simple. Although I won't hesitate to try and put you in the ground if attacked I've never fired on another player in DayZ without provocation. Nonetheless, I will argue strongly for the removal of 3rd person. If anything my experiences on 1st versus 3rd person servers have been the opposite of what you suggest. I not sure that the players were any friendlier but populated 1st person servers were certainly safer, and definitely didn't feel like as much of a deathmatch.

 

Although I agree with all the posts arguing that 3rd person provides an unfair and completely unrealistic tactical advantage, particularly to campers, that is not the primary reason I think it should be removed. It should be removed because it eliminates a whole host of difficult and interesting decisions that the player would otherwise need to make. As Dslyecxi argues in the video how will you chose to balance the reward of information versus the risk of getting your head shot off?

 

Rocket has made it pretty clear that much of the gameplay will revolve around exploring the environment and scavenging. Regardless of how many widgets they add for us to collect and craft together, or how many beds we need to look under to find them, ultimately these are pretty mundane tasks. The only thing that makes them compelling is that we need to risk losing everything in order to acquire those widgets that we either need and/or want. By providing more information at less risk 3rd person just makes the PVE game even more shallow and allows us to get to the "There's nothing left to do, let's shoot each other in the face." stage quicker. Although I'm sure there are many who see that as a good thing, personally I don't have much interest in yet another deathmatch game with zombies, even if it is on a bigger map than most. I'm much more interested in a game where human conflict occurs for authentic reasons, not simply because there is nothing else left to do.

[JPWiser 251]

Id be fine with 1p only if they fixed the animations, and made it feel more like your actually in 1p, not in 2dimensional 1p....  There is a big difference...

 

Im getting the head tracker for the SA I hope that makes it a little more realistic, because I do completely agree that playing in 1p makes the game more exciting ONLY if everyone on the server is also playing that way.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Personally I'm not a fan of the not rending characters out of your FOV/LOS idea, it would seem really wierd being able to see around/over walls etc but having everyone on the other side invisible to you and would probably give you a false sense of safety. Sounds like it may have an impact on performance too, having to constantly determine if players are visible to each other (which could also vary depending on their FOV settings)

Rocket did however reply to another suggestion (which is quite similar to some made in this topic)

 

 

"This sounds like a good idea to me. Ill look at it more tomorrow when back from germany"

http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/1kzy02/sa_gamescom_gameplay_with_rocket_gamestar_10min/cbuwqc6

 

 

dat blind spot.

[Vicco 123]

In the "heat" of this discussion, I mostly simply reacted to what I considered specious arguments by the 1P fans.  It was their insistence that 3P be entirely removed that added the "heat."  Calling those who disagree "Cheats."  "Exploiters."

Wait. Enough of that.  I feel the heat rising.

 

I've refrained from responding for a while, because I'd just be repeating myself.  Just been reading the arguments.

Getting that distance from the "heat" has allowed more "reality" to float to the surface of my noggin, and made itself known.

I'll just lay some of it out.

 

I'd play DayZ in both 1P and 3P, and have.  I prefer 3P.  But would still play 1P if only that was offered. 

Because it's more visually appealing to me.  The vistas offered, especially. on long runs.  Simple as that.  I like the swinging camera.

Though I can't know, I suspect that's the same reason others prefer 3P.

 

"Immersion."  Don't care.  I'm immersed enough in 3P.  "Immersion" is determined by your own imagination.  Totally individual impression.

 

"PvP."  Don't care.  First off, I'll say I don't do much PvP, and when I do it's generally long range, and usually my scouting and patience have already given me the advantage.

In cities, constantly moving negates most of the so-called advantage a guy has using 3P on a rooftop.  He has to expose himself to shoot, and will nearly always miss, giving away his location.  Then you have choices.  Find higher ground to kill him from, stay out the range of his perch and go about your business, or get out of town.  Your choice.  You can see a thousand times on 3P YT vids where good tactical players swat away rooftop peekers. 

If he's in a building, and you're moving and clearing as you always should, it all devolves to twitch shooting anyway.

 

The type of players who use 3P to gain tactical ambush advantage won't be stopped.  In 1P their ambush tactic, let's say at a firehouse, would be to see your approach from a lean behind any number of places.  It's 99% the approaching player won't see the head.  He'll still be scanning rooftops.  In fact a good 1P rooftop scanner wouldn't be seen by most players unless well-scouted from afar.

Then the ambush player can just take a stance behind the wall near the stairs, even leaning to see the other guy entering.  99% he won't be spotted.

Especially if he's laid down some bait, like NV or a DMR just inside the door.  Even a can of Coke usually works.

99% of players don't move and clear.  Looting gets their brain clouded.

  

Camping is camping and ambush is ambush.  You have to defend against it, in 1P or 3P.   A motionless 1P guy in a ghillie under a tree is far more dangerous than a rooftop peeker using 3P. 

Smarter too, because he has better exits.

So PvP advantage arguments don't work.  Might as well complain about KOS or back-stabbers.

  

Anyway, all I need to prefer 3P is visual appeal.  It's the only reason I have really. And it's the ONLY reason I need.  

Of course none of that will quell those who INSIST,

"You're wrong!" 

"You're a cheater!"

"You're trolling!"

"Get out of this thread!"

 

Sounds kinda like some side chat I always see. 

BTW, nobody here is mentioning how infection plays into all of this.  Infection keeps you always moving in cities, and even less prone to being hit by a rooftop peeker.

But it increases his anti-infection advantage on a rooftop where zeds won't go.  But when he fires the first time,  there will be loads of them around the building.  They won't despawn.

That's how it works with both Cherno hospitals anyway. 

 

Sometimes we talk about entirely different games here.  1.7.7.1, older versions, SA.

Many here aren't playing the current vanilla game, which is all I play.

I'll ignore SA until it comes out.

Rocket will decide, and I'm sure that though he will keep the best interests of the overall player base in mind, plenty will complain.

It's all good.  Complaints, good viewpoints, bad viewpoints, real stories, and bullshit stories.  Hey, that's what it's about. 

I love it.

[Vicco 123]

Moderation is not always the answer or do you want water in your beer?

Wait...you're american? Then your beer is already screwed. ^^

A fine place to go in this thread actually.  I've had many kinds of beers.  My favorite is probably Hacker-Pschorr Weiss.

With a slice of lemon.  But I don't want to drink that all the time.

Your post was an excuse to grab a beer.  I don't think of it enough, so forget to drink enough.

There's no Weiss in the fridge, because I don't keep it stocked.  Too expensive.

I stock my go-to American beer, Miller High Life,  AKA "The Champagne of Bottled Beers."

An obvious lie, of course.  But it tastes real good right now.

So sue me.

[DemonGroover 8836]

Well people i think we can all agree to disagree,

 

I am an advocate of 1st person in a game like DayZ - my opinion, like that of Dslyecxi's, is that you are missing out on so much when you turn to the comforts of 3rd.  I called 3rd person a cheat in a post a while back but i take it back  - it isn't cheating if it is a mechanic of the game and it doesn't make you a bad or soft player.

 

I hope Rocket and the devs will come to some sort of compromise as i think that being able to see things in game that we shouldn't be able to isn't really in the spirit of a game.  If going prone makes you go instant 1st then that is enough for me.  For me, the eye in the sky when prone atop a roof is a joke. 

 

On a 3rd person enabled server i use 3rd person myself and i think that when running for any length of time it is a more preferable view of the world, plus it is nice to be able to see you character in action.

 

There does seem to be a very strong 1st person only minority here and i hope that in the SA these players stick to their guns and get on some 1st person only servers and get them fully populated.

 

I still remember my first month playing DayZ in May last year when i didn't even know 3rd person existed. It was so much more intense not being able to see zombies over and through walls and the fear i felt when i heard a gunshot in the distance was amplified when i couldn't just scan my surroundings from behind a wall.

 

It is a personal preference thing but i at least urge 3rd person only players to hop on a (populated?) 1st person only server and scoot around Cherno/Elektro (at night) and tell me it doesn't give you a bigger rush.

[terrvik 2409]

 

I am an advocate of 1st person in a game like DayZ - my opinion, like that of Dslyecxi's, is that you are missing out on so much when you turn to the comforts of 3rd.  I called 3rd person a cheat in a post a while back but i take it back  - it isn't cheating if it is a mechanic of the game and it doesn't make you a bad or soft player.

 

I disagree. Loot farming for example is a mechanic of the game but I still think it is an exploit and should be fixed. The fact that "everyone can do it" doesn't matter. What I personally think of third person shouldn't really bother the people who like using it anyway, it's not like I'm attacking them personally (unlike a lot of other users in this thread).

 

I for one think this discussion is extremely healthy. When it stays as a discussion. I haven't bothered replying lately since so many replies simply are insults or remarks.

 

On a different note; I remember playing OFP and wondering what the point of the third person perspective was even back then. As previously said I was very surprised when I found out how many servers had 3DP on, since the first months for me (April-June) were exclusevily first person. Didn't seem to bother anyone back then. :)

[harley001 315]

I want first person only.  But we NEED to be able to adjust the FOV.  I don't care if its unrealistic.  Nonestop first person is giving me a headache.  

[DemonGroover 8836]

Yep, fair point.  Some exploits need to be fixed up.  The server hopping / combat logging exploits are being addressed i believe.  I would hope there could be a fix for loot farming, but with the SA having so many loot spawns in lots of different places i am not too sure if it will be worth the hassle for someone to farm an area, especially as loot tables wont exist in the state they are in the mod.

 

But i agree, discussion and debate is good, but for this thread to remain open people need to make sure their posts have a point.  I am guilty of this myself sometimes (the inner troll) but if we can keep it clean we can continue to argue.

 

EDIT: harley, there is a FOV slider in SA.

Edited August 25, 2013 by DemonGroover

[tommes 331]

"PvP."  Don't care.  First off, I'll say I don't do much PvP, and when I do it's generally long range, and usually my scouting and patience have already given me the advantage.

In cities, constantly moving negates most of the so-called advantage a guy has using 3P on a rooftop.  He has to expose himself to shoot, and will nearly always miss, giving away his location.  Then you have choices.  Find higher ground to kill him from, stay out the range of his perch and go about your business, or get out of town.  Your choice.  You can see a thousand times on 3P YT vids where good tactical players swat away rooftop peekers. 

If he's in a building, and you're moving and clearing as you always should, it all devolves to twitch shooting anyway.

 

The type of players who use 3P to gain tactical ambush advantage won't be stopped.  In 1P their ambush tactic, let's say at a firehouse, would be to see your approach from a lean behind any number of places.  It's 99% the approaching player won't see the head.  He'll still be scanning rooftops.  In fact a good 1P rooftop scanner wouldn't be seen by most players unless well-scouted from afar.

Then the ambush player can just take a stance behind the wall near the stairs, even leaning to see the other guy entering.  99% he won't be spotted.

Especially if he's laid down some bait, like NV or a DMR just inside the door.  Even a can of Coke usually works.

99% of players don't move and clear.  Looting gets their brain clouded.

  

Camping is camping and ambush is ambush.  You have to defend against it, in 1P or 3P.   A motionless 1P guy in a ghillie under a tree is far more dangerous than a rooftop peeker using 3P. 

Smarter too, because he has better exits.

So PvP advantage arguments don't work.  Might as well complain about KOS or back-stabbers.

 

 

I disagree. To illustrate, 2 stories out of my DayZ life.

 

1. Was looting some dead player at some factory building on Namalsk when I was shot from a nearby hill. Could flee into the building to patch myself up and took cover behind some stacked concrete plates because I heard someone moving close by. So I sat crouched behind that stack aiming at the corner of the door the possible bandit had to show up...well at least if he wouldn't have been able to 3rd person whore. So he knew exactly that I was waiting for him and where without me realizing at first. 3rd person whoring breaks common sense. I died.

Sure, I could have handled the situation much better if I had 3d person view and it's use in mind. I would have stayed prone behind the stack and 3dp whoring myself till the guy showed himself...but it sucks anyway. Why do I have to change common sense playstyle? In a so called military simulator? Ridiculous!

 

2. Some guy camped the roof of the office aka school in Elektro and shot me. Had a lucky spawn, got back to my body, scouted all around, thought it was safe and tried to get my gear back. Well, the guy was still on top of that roof and attacked me again. I made it out this time and remembered again that there's something like 3d personing. Took a run along around to find an Enfield and went back to Elektro from the east. Snuck to the hill with that tree where you can overlook the roof of that office building. Saw him for a brief moment but he rolled behind cover where he could watch me in comfort and safety. I could do nothing without him watching me. That pissed me really off mostly because it's so ridiculous.

 

For me 3rd person view is something that should not be mixed into a competitive first person game. For GTA or whatever it might be great, but not in a mil sim or whatever sim. Just takes the sim out of everything.

Edited August 25, 2013 by tommes

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

A poll to reach more people on the case: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1pZqrOkddl42aICeOf7EBAGqAwEHgLwbiYJlIJj2Sil4/viewform

 

Go for it guys. :thumbsup:

[RooBurger 285]

I just had an idea which would eliminate most advantages 3P has in combat while still allowing players to use it.

 

Put a visible object in the air exactly where the player's 3P camera is. It should also show what direction they're looking. Make the invisible periscope visible.

 

EDIT - added the concept to this image I made before:

 

Edited August 26, 2013 by RooBurger

[Andrakann 52]

 

It's just the same as my var2.

But personally i prefer my var1.