First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Ken Bean 175]

Yeah you could rein in third person, but what's the point of going through all that effort when you can much more easily remove it without any negative effects? IDK about you but I'd rather play DayZ SA before 2020.

But Ken, the right view is always third person. You can use it to see through walls and objects, and when you need to shoot you just tap a button and you're in already aiming down the sights. Third person is too easy to exploit for it to stay.

(PS: I love how third person players are discounting every single poll that proves them wrong, the level of denial is absolutely hilarious)

And I completely don't get why you 1st person folks just cant seem to see anything else in 3rd person but exploits. I absolutely don't get your views. I think I played DayZ long enough to know that if you want to shoot sth, to use 1st person. Because this is WAAAYY easier to aim and to hit sth. Exploit?

Edited August 26, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

And I completely don't get why you 1st person folks just cant seem to see anything else in 3rd person but exploits. I absolutely don't get your views. I think I played DayZ long enough to know that if you want to shoot sth, to use 1st person. Because this is WAAAYY easier to aim and to hit sth. Exploit?

No because that doesn't involve using magical all-seeing eyeballs.

[mercules 1290]

Not really unrealistic. But if Im not mislead I think you cant land that fast in Dayz without damaging sth.

 

You also can drive a car if you blind two third of your windshield. It's just meh. Thats why they dont do it.

That is ARMA II, the helicopter he is flying acts and reacts the same way as it does in DayZ, which he has also played. He is just really, really good because he has taken the time to fly in first person and learned the "feel" of how things work. You should watch his 3rd video in that series where he drops into courtyards in a little bird and in one case actually drops for a landing in a HANGER going into it about 60-70 KPH. Sure it might have taken multiple takes, but he can do it and he plays mainly in FPV. 

 

Sounds like we've moved on to 'everyone should have to use 1st person cos 3rd is EZmode' rather than addressing the issue at hand. I still maintain that any advantage that third person could give in a given situation could be fixed without it's removal. If this is possible then there is simply plausable argument to go first person only. Why people are still banging on about making everyone play first person only seems to be a personal issue for some.

 

If the advantages of third person are eliminated, then why do you care that other players might prefer that view to first person? 31 pages and still no actual answer to this question...

 

I have no issue if the advantages that 3rd person can be eliminated with there being TPV in the game. The issue is that many people have tried and tried to figure out a way to do so that doesn't increase the load on the server/client that pushes it past being a wise thing to implement. Needing to use to points of reference for field of view twice and do all the processing for it twice which is literally doubling the work load for determinging what can be seen or not seen. Basically enabling a TPV that is limited to the same vision as FPV is so messy that other developers have tried and then decided to just stick with FPV. 

[Ken Bean 175]

No because that doesn't involve using magical all-seeing eyeballs.

But you cant smell and feel in the game. In real life you can. You also can locate sounds and distances way better. If you lie in a bush you litterally feel if you are lieing in. The undergrowth is peeking your legs. Moose is wetting your trowser. Birds flying nearby send wind which plays with the hairballs hanging out of your ears. Sun burns your uncovered fingers. Ants are marching through your slip...

Edited August 26, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

So surely the best answer is to just refine the 3rd person camera a bit no?  That way you can keep your situational awareness but ditch your wizardy eyes.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Fraggle

[mercules 1290]

But you cant smell and feel in the game. In real life you can. You also can locate sounds and distances way better. If you lie in a bush you litterally feel if you are lieing in. The undergrowth is peeking your legs. Moose is wetting your trowser. Birds flieng nearby send wind to you hairballs. Sun burns your uncovered fingers. Ants are marching through your slip.

 

So your argument is that because we don't have access to all 5 senses in a video game we should have a magic eye floating above our heads expanding one sense into the realms of science fiction and/or magic? An expansion on that sense that lets us ignore the fact that touch won't tell us a zombie is near the corner we are about to go around or further down the fence and neither would smell or taste? 

[Ken Bean 175]

But you must admit that you have another awareness in rl than in game. So moving through an almost natural environement in DayZ feels in 1st person kind of cut, like wearing blinders.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Ken Bean

[terrvik 2409]

So surely the best answer is to just refine the 3rd person camera a bit no?  That way you can keep your situational awareness but ditch your wizardy eyes.

 

Either that or improve the first person view. FOV, mirrors on vehicles, ability to lean inside vehicles and so on.

Either way I think the TPV must be improved and have separate servers for the SA anyhow.

Team Rocket seem to be on all of this, so actually everything is fine. :)

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Either that or improve the first person view. FOV, mirrors on vehicles, ability to lean inside vehicles and so on.

Either way I think the TPV must be improved and have separate servers for the SA anyhow.

Team Rocket seem to be on all of this, so actually everything is fine. :)

Yeh agreed.  Well the classic Arma2 indoor clunkiness already feels much better in the SA and that seems to be one major gripe with peeps that don't like 1st person view in DayZ.

 

I've been playing Arma 3 a lot recently and the vehicle mirrors really do give the awarness that was missing from Arma 2, not sure if it's something that can be introduced into the SA, I don't see why they wouldn't tbh.

 

Leaning out of windows would be cool too, for a well executed example of a game that does it well check out Euro Truck Simulator 2013.

 

Personally I'm not too fussed about the vehicle side of things though.  I do prefer sticking to 1st person cam but my one and only gripe with the 3rd person cam is the way it can be used as an exploit which effects gameplay negatively, even if it's fair because we can all do it.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Fraggle

[Ken Bean 175]

So your argument is that because we don't have access to all 5 senses in a video game we should have a magic eye floating above our heads expanding one sense into the realms of science fiction and/or magic?

Its quite a difference if you usally have five and in DayZ you only can rely on two senses. Not even talking about the quality of the remaining two.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Ken Bean

[mercules 1290]

But you must admit that you have another awareness in rl than in game. So moving through an almost natural environement in DayZ feels in 1st person kind of cut, like wearing blinders.

The word you are searching for is Kinesthesis. This is the sense of your physical body and the space it occupies and moves through. When game designers add it people go, "It makes me sick to my stomach." because the game can add in the visual representation but not the actual sensation. Our body uses a bunch of visual cues to fixate our position in space. when you have a curved back or possible injury that might be pulling it out of alignment one of the things they do is have you close your eyes and "stand up straight". Why? because you tend to orientate your body so that your eyes are level. Without that cue you can see the person is not standing straight or has one shoulder lower. 

Your inner ear also helps with this but our bodies can detect changes in air pressure. Some can even sense nearby objects by that change and I know I can walk down a dark hallway and "feel" where there is an opening on the opposite wall just by the change in sound and pressure. 

BTW, 3rd person doesn't bring any of this back. You still orientate based upon your point of reference. What it does do is cut the learning time of creating a spatial awareness in game to almost nothing for those that have problems lining up to go through doors or around object in FPV. You can SEE where your shoulders are and make sure they both clear the doorway instead of having to try and fail to get through a door a few(or maybe a dozen) times like you might in FPV. Why do people have an issue going from TPV to FPV? Because they relied on those visual cues for so long and haven't learned the other visual cues or how to move without them. If you play FPV for a while it all starts to come naturally. 

You will NEVER have the same amount of input you would in real life, but you can gain a feeling for your avatar's body if you play FPV and it becomes natural after a while. Now, there may be those who simply can't get that feeling. My wife has issue with spatial sense in real life and that translates to games in a big way where the other sense are removed. She gets car sick and all that. However, even she can learn it well enough to maneuver around and with head bob and motion blur off she won't feel ill from play a FPV game. 

 

[mercules 1290]

Its quite a difference if you usally have five and in DayZ you only can rely on two senses. Not even talking about the quality of the remaining two.

Five is a misconception, you have many more than that. ;) You will not get those others added in anytime soon, but that doesn't mean we should have X-ray vision to make up for lack of taste, okay? :)

[dsi24 227]

I'd just like to drop this here, this is what happens when third person gets added to a game post release. That's nearing 2000 posts of "Why the fuck are you people doing this?"

Look at the arguments just on the first page, hell just the #3 post. Everything that needs to be said about why 3rd person can't coexist with 1st person, right there. For a totally different game that has only one thing in common with DayZ: it has a PvP aspect. Third person ruins PvP.

[Ken Bean 175]

Five is a misconception, you have many more than that. ;) You will not get those others added in anytime soon, but that doesn't mean we should have X-ray vision to make up for lack of taste, okay? :)

As said, under bottom line I don't see a problem utilizing the 3rt person view. Last time I have been shot by a player it was in Berezino at night. The dude was camping all night long with a M249 SAW and a bag full of food on the balcony of one of the new buildings with night vision googles. I came near, didn't see or hear anything and died. On the video I recorded I just was able to spot the muzzle flash instantly before I bite the dust. I was in 3rd person. Peeking around a corner wouldn't have done anything.

Managed to kill him with the next char without rising an eyebrow. Behind the new building is the super market. I sneaked through it and used the chat to talk to him. Which made him courious. After I told him that Im in the super market I heard bones breaking on the footpath. He felt from the roof as he tried to get a clean shot on me. He probably was in 1st person, prone over the roof and didnt realize that he went a bit too far ...

Was unintended but funny. Got at least my NVG. :D

Edited August 26, 2013 by Ken Bean

[dsi24 227]

As said, under bottom line I don't see a problem utilizing the 3rt person view. Last time I have been shot by a player it was in Berezino at night. The dude was camping all night long with a M249 SAW and a bag full of food on the balcony of one of the new buildings with night vision googles. I came near, didn't see or hear anything and died. On the video I recorded I just was able to spot the muzzle flash instantly before I bite the dust. I was in 3rd person. Peeking around a corner wouldn't have done anything.

Gee, it's good to know there exists very specific situations where 3rd person isn't easily exploited. Oh wait, it's still easily exploited in 90% of situations so it still needs to go. Almost forgot for a second there.  :rolleyes:

[Jamz 253]

 

I have no issue if the advantages that 3rd person can be eliminated with there being TPV in the game. The issue is that many people have tried and tried to figure out a way to do so that doesn't increase the load on the server/client that pushes it past being a wise thing to implement. Needing to use to points of reference for field of view twice and do all the processing for it twice which is literally doubling the work load for determinging what can be seen or not seen. Basically enabling a TPV that is limited to the same vision as FPV is so messy that other developers have tried and then decided to just stick with FPV. 

 

What you've done there is discount one possible solution. The most likely solution seems to be reigning in to first person when prone (and I guess, when crouch running and in vehicles). No extra workload on the server and perhaps a fix to this problem? Sounds like it...

[DemonGroover 8836]

Don't know if you guys keep up with Arma3 mods but I figured you might like this mod.It allows 3rd person but restricts peeking around corners to the characters actual line of sight.

 

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162139-Third-Person-Limiter-Thing

 

That is definitely an interesting idea there.  Not sure how the constant loop checks to see if a player would be able to see a player/zombie would go in an MMO though.

[Jamz 253]

I'd just like to drop this here, this is what happens when third person gets added to a game post release. That's nearing 2000 posts of "Why the fuck are you people doing this?"

Look at the arguments just on the first page, hell just the #3 post. Everything that needs to be said about why 3rd person can't coexist with 1st person, right there. For a totally different game that has only one thing in common with DayZ: it has a PvP aspect. Third person ruins PvP.

 

Totally different game, no correlation. There is much more than just pvp in DayZ, there isn't in MWO. In that situation the change of view aspect from first to third gives the game a console shooter feel which would attract the wrong audience, by the looks of that thread.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Jamz

[Ken Bean 175]

That is definitely an interesting idea there.  Not sure how the constant loop checks to see if a player would be able to see a player/zombie would go in an MMO though.

Utilizing the 1st person line of sight could be the way to go. It just doesnt look very nice.

Edit

And Jamz has a point. It may remind the player too much that killing is the reason for.

Maybe if someone really is interested in pvp, servers with locked 1st person should be the way to go.

Otherwhise, if most player use to play on server which allow 3rd person, this probably just means that most people like the view. So you probably would disappoint most player who are not so firm in pvp aspects and just like to switch a bit the view.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Ken Bean

[mercules 1290]

What you've done there is discount one possible solution. The most likely solution seems to be reigning in to first person when prone (and I guess, when crouch running and in vehicles). No extra workload on the server and perhaps a fix to this problem? Sounds like it...

 

You can still see around corners and over walls and gain a tactical advantage over anyone who has to approach you from a vector where they can not be close to the barrier and do the same. It solves ~some~ of the issues. 

 

 

Totally different game, no correlation. There is much more than just pvp in DayZ, there isn't in MWO. In that situation the change of view aspect from first to third gives the game a console shooter feel which would attract the wrong audience, by the looks of that thread.

 

MWO is a mecha combat simulation. Yes it is PVP but it simulates what it is to be in the cockpit of a mecha with all the limitations that entails..... or it used to. DayZ is a Zombie Survival combat simulation. They are adding in a whole slew of things to do in the SA besides shoot at other people but combat is still very much a part of the game. Stealth is more difficult when you don't have magical awareness of how the zombies are moving, so even if you NEVER FIRE A SHOT, TPV helps you out in the game and makes it easier. Since the devs are adding in things like various anti-biotics to cure various diseases and gear wear and tear it seems as thought they want to move towards something that is a bit more difficult. 

I agree the POINT of DayZ isn't that it should be PVP. What I disagree is the thought that DayZ without the PVP aspect is not any different in TPV than it is in FPV. It is very different, with less suspense and less difficulty.

[terrvik 2409]

Maybe if someone really is interested in pvp, servers with locked 1st person should be the way to go.

Otherwhise, if most player use to play on server which allow 3rd person, this probably just means that most people like the view. So you probably would disappoint most player who are not so firm in pvp aspects and just like to switch a bit the view.

 

I just want to point out that while I am one of the biggest supporters of first person only I have zero interest in pvp. I can count the number of players I have killed with my ten fingers and I have played since April 2012. :)

 

It's not just about that, it's about how I feel too safe with TPV on, because I am too aware of what's behind walls or I can observe someone stalking me while hidden behind a rock. It simply removes all tension and excitement for me!

 

 

Yeh agreed.  Well the classic Arma2 indoor clunkiness already feels much better in the SA and that seems to be one major gripe with peeps that don't like 1st person view in DayZ.

 

 

That's great to hear (read?)!

 

 

Leaning out of windows would be cool too, for a well executed example of a game that does it well check out Euro Truck Simulator 2013.

 

I, uh, rather not. :)

Edited August 26, 2013 by Terrorviktor

[DemonGroover 8836]

I just want to point out that while I am one of the biggest supporters of first person only I have zero interest in pvp. I can count the number of players I have killed with my ten fingers and I have played since April 2012. :)

 

It's not just about that, it's about how I feel too safe with TPV on, because I am too aware of what's behind walls or I can observe someone stalking me while hidden behind a rock. It simply removes all tension and excitement for me!

 

I suppose that is the crux of the argument - what players want out of the game.

 

When DayZ first landed everyone was into the immersion and tension of being thrown into a zombie apocalypse. No one had really any idea of what to do, where the good gear was and in my case, that 3rd person even existed. There were even friendly players!!

 

Fast forward 6 months and there were no secrets to DayZ anymore and the general playstyle turned more to PvP as more and more people jumped into the game. A lot of newcomers probably haven't even tasted vanilla DayZ as the private hives with more gear and custom load outs and newer maps took over.  DayZ has now just become a playground for getting high end loot and killing people - and the easiest way to kill people is use 3rd person to gain an advantage. 

 

I just wish people here would just admit that 3rd person makes the game easier and removes the fear and tension that only 1st person an truly give.  There is nothing wrong with defaulting back to a more comfortable view if that is what you like but let's not delude ourselves in saying that it makes DayZ better because more people play with it on in DayZ Commander. It is easy mode - and i honestly thought DayZ wasn't about being easy. Being able to camp a roof in 3rd while prone is easy. Do it in 1st and shoot me and i will be impressed.

 

Humans are a lazy bunch at heart and we will generally always take the easy option. If you are in a firefight and hide behind a wall how many of us would resist the temptation of enabling 3rd person to have a look?  But stay in 1st and the game becomes much more tense and in my opinion better.

 

That is what this original video was about.   Not actually saying remove 3rd person, but appealing to players to try 1st because it gives you a better experience in the game. Don't cheapen and dilute the game just because it makes it harder. Have some of you 3rd person hipsters actually tried playing for any length of time in 1st person?

 

Anyway i am sure 3rd person is here to stay, so fret not. 

 

That's my final opinion anyway.

[Ken Bean 175]

Have some of you 3rd person hipsters actually tried playing for any length of time in 1st person?

Yes and I found it incredible annoying, even in the editor without zeds or npcs.

[big_t 66]

I'd just like to drop this here, this is what happens when third person gets added to a game post release. That's nearing 2000 posts of "Why the fuck are you people doing this?"

Look at the arguments just on the first page, hell just the #3 post. Everything that needs to be said about why 3rd person can't coexist with 1st person, right there. For a totally different game that has only one thing in common with DayZ: it has a PvP aspect. Third person ruins PvP.

 

LOL  it's true,  I only read to Post #3 , that pretty much sums it up !!!

[Heiduk 265]

One solution would be to put the "eyes" of the infected zombies in third person as well on servers where it is activated.

 

This is the best 3rd person fix I've read so far. With limited ammo it would make operating in towns almost impossible.

 

Hmmm. maybe you guys are misunderstanding me. Day-Z gameplay as made by the devs/rocket is about player choice, in the framework of how the devs/rocket want

That is exactly why some of us are arguing that DayZ should be based around a physically plausible player perspective. Rocket could certainly decide to make gravity or vehicle damage optional components of the game too, and that would be an equally bad idea. If you want to make a game that feels plausibly realistic get the fundamentals right first and the rest will naturally fall in to place without the need for convoluted work arounds like a context sensitive camera (that probably won't work right) or LOS ray casting.

 

I hate that Rocket implies the standalone will require third person.

...clip...

For example, if you can't tell where exactly you've been shot or are wounded in first person, relying on third person to solve this problem just reinforces an exploitable system.

This is what worries me. In one of the Gamescon videos he mentioned keeping the goofy blood fountains so that you can tell if you're injured and which direction fire is coming from. I think this is a horrible design, or more accurately failure to make a design.

DayZ has the potential to be a great game but I don't think they can achieve that if they decide to punt on some of these core issues. The ARMA editor is a great sandbox, DayZ mod with its infinite variety of hacks is a great sandbox. For DayZ standalone to be a great sandbox game it needs to have rules, even if those rules are just Physics 101 and Anatomy 101.