First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

You've got to be trolling me.

 

it's not a First Person Shooter.

 

Sausage, I like you, but come on. Why is it that Arma is one of the very few shooters that supports TrackIr? Why would it allow you to simply press Alt and move your head independently from your body? Why would there be a "lean" function? Why would status effects like shivering, breathing heavily, injury, ect. affect your first person view and aim? Why does Arma 3 have so many different stance and lean positions?

 

The game was obviously designed with first person simulation in mind. I think you are forgetting that the "Arma" series has come from a line of real military simulators for the purpose of training real combat soldiers.

 

Saying that it's always been meant to be a third person shooter is somewhat preposterous. Even third person shooters of today like Gears of War, Splinter Cell, Dead Space (a horror game), ect. all have limited third person cameras. They generally don't allow you to move your head around independently from your body, which makes certain forms of wallpeaking nearly impossible. Those games have cameras that react dynamically to the environment. They are designed that way to be generally more "fair" than what we have in Arma right now.

 

And don't get me wrong. I like third person view, as well as first person. I like seeing my character, and the more comfortable FoV. However, it is extremely exploitable. Third person at least needs some limitations.

 

 

 

Also I think if you examine Fraggle's posts you will find that he also does not want to "get rid" of third person entirely. We're simply pointing out it's current flaws. To deny them and say "It's a third person game, (i.e. it's already like this) so don't change any aspect about it." That's a pretty weak argument against the real case at hand. Even people who use third person to their selfish advantage, like me, admit that it is overpowering. 

Edited August 24, 2013 by SalamanderAnder

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Sausage, I like you, but come on. Why is it that Arma is one of the very few shooters that supports TrackIr? Why would it allow you to simply press Alt and move your head independently from your body? Why would there be a "lean" function? Why would status effects like shivering, breathing heavily, injury, ect. affect your first person view and aim?

 

The game was obviously designed with first person simulation in mind. I think you are forgetting that the "Arma" series has come from a line of real military simulators for the purpose of training real combat soldiers.

 

Saying that it's always been meant to be a third person shooter is somewhat preposterous. Even third person shooters of today like Gears of War, Splinter Cell, ect. Have limited third person cameras. They generally don't allow you to move your head around independently from your body, which makes certain forms of wallpeaking nearly impossible. Those games have cameras that react dynamically to the environment. They are designed that way to be generally more "fair" than what we have in Arma right now.

We're talking DayZ right? I'm not too worried with ArmA at the moment.  If DayZ was meant to be FP only, it sure went to TP rather quickly.  So much so that it's part of what makes DayZ DayZ at this point.  Every stream, every video, nearly every screenshot, how most people play = third person.

But you brought up probably the only complaint and issue that actually justifies third person view being an exploit. Status effects should absolutely be seen in the third person view.   

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

What you're suggesting actually neuters the entire camera view and is not in any way a fair or honest suggestion or compromise.   It only makes you guys happy because it solves what you believe to be "exploits".   It's like me suggesting the FP camera be moved to the character's left foot.

I don't see what is so terrible about having the 3rd person as it as but only being able to see things the way you would see them in first person. Perhaps it's not even technically possible to implement or the most elegant solution but I'm curious why do you think that would be so unfair?

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

We're talking DayZ right? I'm not too worried with ArmA at the moment.  If DayZ was meant to be FP only, it sure went to TP rather quickly.  So much so that it's part of what makes DayZ DayZ at this point.  Every stream, every video, nearly every screenshot, how most people play = third person.

But you brought up probably the only complaint and issue that actually justifies third person view being an exploit. Status effects should absolutely be seen in the third person view.   

 

Dayz is a modification of Arma 2.

 

The third person element is from Arma 2. It was there before "DayZ" ever existed. The fact of the matter is that the first and third person functionality of the game were already designed long before Dean Hall got his hands on it.

 

But because of the unique environment of DayZ - which I think you will agree is very different from Arma 2 - it might actually demand a slightly different approach. So what we are basically saying is this:

 

DayZ needs it's own third person perspective, different from that of Arma 2 (the game it was originally built on) because it will contribute to making DayZ a more unique experience.

 

 

" Every stream, every video, nearly every screenshot, how most people play = third person."   All this proves is that most people take the path of least resistance. Again, why do games like Battlefield choose to be first person only games? Why does Dead Space choose to have a slow, closer up third person view? Because it denies the player information, which creates suspense and tension.

 

Every stream of Battlefield is in first person view. It doesn't prove anything. People play a game by the rules that the game defines. The developers have to decide if DayZ is going to be a game that says

 

a: "Just switch to third person and abuse the head swivel functionality while prone so you can see around this corner and therefore gain an unfair advantage over another human being,"

 

or b: "Third person view has limitations so that you will have to take more risk as a player and therefore provide a more suspenseful experience for everyone."

 

Just because a feature already exists and is widely used and even exploited does not mean that it shouldn't be changed.

Edited August 24, 2013 by SalamanderAnder

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

Lets not argue semantics.  

 

The question is:  Can it be improved upon because currently many regard it as game-breaking and the people that don't have yet to put forward a solid reason why the devs shouldn't at least try to fix it.

in your view..

 

people who play third person have their own reasons, be it as simple as its the view they enjoy.. who are you to decide its not a solid reason ???

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

You can't look around corners without exposing your head how ever many monitors you have or however high your FOV is set using FPV.

 

oh so a higher set FOV is ok for some to use ???

 

i see..

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

I think we all know that 3rd person will utterly dominate server numbers.

 

First person will become a niche with a few dedicated servers.

 

This is better than nowt of course but it will be a real shame if they marginalise those of us who want to play properly.

 

haha your personal bias is amazing in this post..

 

so if 95% of the player base plays on third person servers, they are playing improperly ?

 

hahahh... tell us grand wizard what is the "proper" way to play day.. perhaps you can run a school to teach the unwashed mass'

[Shadow Man 142]

haha your personal bias is amazing in this post..

 

so if 95% of the player base plays on third person servers, they are playing improperly ?

 

hahahh... tell us grand wizard what is the "proper" way to play day.. perhaps you can run a school to teach the unwashed mass'

 

What he means by "properly", is fair. 3rd person does not provide a level playing field.

 

Can I ask, what do you think about the exploits possible because of 3rd person? Do you mind that one player has an advantage that cannot be countered?

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

What he means by "properly", is fair. 3rd person does not provide a level playing field.

 

Can I ask, what do you think about the exploits possible because of 3rd person? Do you mind that one player has an advantage that cannot be countered?

 

Just looking at the reality of dayz today, 95% of the dayz population playing on 3dp server do not give a flying fart about what you keep calling "exploits" or "advantages".

 

Why? Well, if you think a little bit you'll quickly figure out that each and every player of that 95% has exactly the same "exploits" or "advantages" and do not, therefore, see anyone being advantaged compared to the rest.

 

Cheers,

 

_Anubis_

 

p.s. I will try to explain better. I agree with you 3dp is unrealistic and as such, provide the so-called periscope view. I wrote in a previous post that it is simple a consequence of the GPU technology and how images in perspective are rendered. I also suggested a possible way to cope with that, but I doubt about its implementation (overhead). However, I do not agree the periscope view represent an "advantage" or "exploit" or "cheat" or you-name-it for the simple reason every player using 3dp has the same periscope view. It is just one of the million unrealistic things in dayz and since everyone can do it, nobody is at disadvantage.

Edited August 24, 2013 by _Anubis_

[dgeesio 1034]

funny thing is fist person is the minority in this game and severs.

 

remove it kill the game or lose many players.

 

always the same with great games instead of keeping it popular they go to deep ruin it.

 

leave the this person get on fixing bugs that matter and stopping cheats.

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

people who play third person have their own reasons...

And that is the problem. Do you know why the streamers generally play the mod with TPV? Because they want to exploit. They want to have as many advantages as possible over other players, so they can kill many people and entertain their followers.. No one would like to watch someone who constantly dies each 3 seconds.

 

Almost none of who play the game in 3rd person has another reason to use it.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Dayz is a modification of Arma 2.

 

The third person element is from Arma 2. It was there before "DayZ" ever existed. The fact of the matter is that the first and third person functionality of the game were already designed long before Dean Hall got his hands on it.

 

But because of the unique environment of DayZ - which I think you will agree is very different from Arma 2 - it might actually demand a slightly different approach. So what we are basically saying is this:

 

DayZ needs it's own third person perspective, different from that of Arma 2 (the game it was originally built on) because it will contribute to making DayZ a more unique experience.

 

 

" Every stream, every video, nearly every screenshot, how most people play = third person."   All this proves is that most people take the path of least resistance. Again, why do games like Battlefield choose to be first person only games? Why does Dead Space choose to have a slow, closer up third person view? Because it denies the player information, which creates suspense and tension.

 

Every stream of Battlefield is in first person view. It doesn't prove anything. People play a game by the rules that the game defines. The developers have to decide if DayZ is going to be a game that says

 

a: "Just switch to third person and abuse the head swivel functionality while prone so you can see around this corner and therefore gain an unfair advantage over another human being,"

 

or b: "Third person view has limitations so that you will have to take more risk as a player and therefore provide a more suspenseful experience for everyone."

 

Just because a feature already exists and is widely used and even exploited does not mean that it shouldn't be changed.

 

 

K, I'm not going to get offended by your condescension so I'll just point out how I'm fully aware of what Arma was and is and I'm almost certain I know DayZ is a mod of it.  I think.  DayZ is it's own beast despite it's roots.

 

I'm 100% on board for a new 3rd but not one that doesn't make sense at all.  Having objects and threats become invisible because someone doesn't like the proper use of third person view is silly.  There have been better suggestions than that and rocket has even mentioned one that's already superior to the nerf view some have suggested recently.  I haven't even seen much discussion of this from the FP side of the debate.  

 

 

why do games like Battlefield choose to be first person only games? Why does Dead Space choose to have a slow, closer up third person view?

 

 

Because it's incredibly hard to create maps that work for third person view and to create a smooth camera that doesn't pass through or bump zoom in on the player when they move around.  Even finding the sweet spot for a third person view is going to be hard.  Too close, and your character blocks your view.  OTS view, same thing.  Too far back and you get people crying about "exploits".  

 

As for tension, there is nothing more anxiety inducing than knowing someone could be behind any tree, any rock, any wall, bush or elephant watching you consider whether or not to run across an open area.  The entire world becomes a threat with third person.  That makes the game harder in the pvp sense.  You're forced, hopefully, to make smart decisions about approaches and while in combat.  In first person, you only need to look at a few areas where a threat may be to decide whether or not the coast is clear.   

 

 

Again, I'm not saying the view should remain the same but switching to something worse is not ideal at all.  Changing the view should be taken very seriously by the devs and nailing the right position without breaking the view isn't going to be something they can do over a weekend.  They might as well force FP  while locking the FoV than waste their time breaking the third person view.  

[Jamz 253]

I'd like to see first or third person fixed by server for all players on that server, so there is the choice but everyone has the same view on each particular server. I use both views but mostly 3rd, if it was first person only I would still play though.

 

The main disadvantage for me playing only first person would be not being able to tell if I've fully hidden/camouflaged myself.

[sobieski12 835]

I'd like to see first or third person fixed by server for all players on that server, so there is the choice but everyone has the same view on each particular server. I use both views but mostly 3rd, if it was first person only I would still play though.

 

The main disadvantage for me playing only first person would be not being able to tell if I've fully hidden/camouflaged myself.

 

Define fully hidden, are we talking about hugging a tree and using the third person camera to scout around area in a 360 degree angle?

 

You could simply just look down at your clothing and see what you blend in with, or have a friend help you in that regard.

 

As for why people use 3rd person and 1st is quite simple really.

* People use the 3rd person camera to exploit the camera in spotting threats. After you spot a threat you would switch to 1st person to eliminate the threat... simple really.

[geogeorgegeo@hotmail.co.uk 50]

-snip-

 

Edited August 24, 2013 by Noface

[geogeorgegeo@hotmail.co.uk 50]

Yes, only an handful of people prefer 1st over 3dp. Out there there are tons of 3dp on servers with tons of players playing in 3dp and just a few 3dp off servers with so no many people playing. Sorry, where is this "vast majority" of those 1st person players you keep talking about? 

 

The poll idea shows immediately how you confuse the entire dayz player base with the relatively few people posting here: It is the same viewpoint of some moderators by the way: "we" think 3dp is bad, we are "many", hence the "majority" of dayz players think 3dp is bad. b.s. sorry. The reality is different. Go and open dayZ commander if you do not believe me.

 

As I said countless times, I personally play 3dp in explore mode and 1st in combat, so I play on 3DP on servers. I accept people willing to play with 3DP off only, it is their preference, like I accept people doing KoS even if I do not play in that way.

 

We have 3dp on and 3dp off servers for that purpose. Simple as that.

 

_Anubis_

When people get used to 3rd person, it takes effort to only use 1st person, which is why when someone plays a 3rd person server, they can't deal with being restricted to 1st person and so join the 3rd person server.

 

Personally, I had to get used to 1st person after deciding to play on 1st person servers (cus people kept popping up on a roof and shooting me or behind a tree or rock, without me even knowing they were there, and then killing me) and I got used to it quite quickly. Since other people don't seem to make this small effort, the majority of servers allow both 1st and 3rd (maybe admins want more players so allow both, who knows?) meaning I also join 3rd person servers, because they are full - which is more fun than a 1st person near empty server.

 

In reality i'm not talking to the person im quoting, I am talking to everyone else in the thread, because I know he won't actually take what I said in. 

[droznig 20]

says you..

 

guess what just because you think arma/dayz shouldnt have 3rd person, doesnt mean it shouldnt.

 

clearly the devs thought different.

 

were not talking about a option/feature that was patched/added in later on.

 

3rd person has always been a part of the game.

 

Actually the game was designed with first person views in mind, the whole 3rd person thing came later simply because the optoin was there to cheat so people started using it to lessen the difficulty of what was an otherwise brutal game at the time*. Day Z is and always has been a first person game which is why it's so frustrating seeing so many people using what is effectively a cheat to play the game in a way it was never meant to be played or designed to be played.

 

There is no way I'm going to buy this game if people who I consider cheaters, regardless of their reasoning, are able to play on the same server as me. Before everyone get's all upset with me, It's just my opinion, I consider anything that gives you an unfair advantage a cheater, seeing around walls, for me falls in that category. If you can hop from your cheat server to my 1st person server, that's a deal breaker for me.

 

*Note: when Day Z was crazy popular for about a month, all that hype came from people playing it in first person, you can see in youtube videos that largely made it popular that the older ones are almost all first person and then as the videos get newer they turn to 3rd person which directly corresponds to the mod losing concurrant players. Again it's just my opinion, but 3rd person actually damages player numbers as a whole. People think they want it to be easy and softer, but then when it gets easier they lose interest. WoW is a fantastic example of this, the hardest that game has ever been has also been the most popular it's ever been, people whined and cried that end game was too hard, so slowly slowly the retardation began and they made it easier and more accesible, which technically should have made it even more popular since you are able to cater to a wider player base, but instead the numbers dropped dramatically.

[Jamz 253]

Define fully hidden, are we talking about hugging a tree and using the third person camera to scout around area in a 360 degree angle?

 

You could simply just look down at your clothing and see what you blend in with, or have a friend help you in that regard.

 

As for why people use 3rd person and 1st is quite simple really.

* People use the 3rd person camera to exploit the camera in spotting threats. After you spot a threat you would switch to 1st person to eliminate the threat... simple really.

 

No, I mean that if I'm stalking a player I need to know that things aren't poking out of the bush I'm hiding in etc. Third person makes it easier to be aware of how I'm hiding as first person does not include peripheral vision. I am a lone wolf and don't hunt players, simply occasionally stalk them (unless they spot me)

 

I use third person to gauge my surroundings easier as I play on low pop servers, not to give me an edge over other players (who of course also have access to third person) but I would be happy enough to use only first person provided it was somehow modded to include my peripheral vision. Otherwise probably not.

 

Not everyone who uses third person exploits it to kill players...

[Jamz 253]

 I consider anything that gives you an unfair advantage a cheater, seeing around walls, for me falls in that category.

 

But you also have the option of third person so it isn't an unfair advantage.

[droznig 20]

But you also have the option of third person so it isn't an unfair advantage.

 

Let me word it differently, I prefer to play on servers without what I consder cheaters, I prefer not to cheat even when presented with the opportunity and the option even if it is acceptable, I prefer not to cheat. Call me old fashioned but I like playing games for the challange, not to cheat or cheapen the experience. I like playing games the way they were designed to be played. I also want to take this opportunity to point out that 3rd person is only on by default on Arma 2 if the admins select "Recruit" or "regular" It comes down to preference I suppose but the few pvp servers in arma 2 never had 3rd person turned on. The fact that so many day z servers label themselves as veteran but have it turned on disgusts me.

[RedNome 443]

Rocket from Reddit, hopefully this might stop all the arguing, or the more likely outcome, create a shit load more, anyway:

 

 

It's going to be hard to get it right, but I really want us to try. I find I am using third person alot in DayZ SA while running long distances, or to "check" my character (like to see where I am shot to check direction of firer), but then third person is so exploitable in prone.

So we are going to try both forcing first for prone, and the "sucking camera in close" and see which works best.

Agree too, crouching would really benefit from a more "over the shoulder", we'll try that and put some previs up for people to comment on.

http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/1kzy02/sa_gamescom_gameplay_with_rocket_gamestar_10min/cbukwxm?context=3

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

Rocket from Reddit, hopefully this might stop all the arguing, or the more likely outcome, create a shit load more, anyway:

 

It's going to be hard to get it right, but I really want us to try. I find I am using third person alot in DayZ SA while running long distances, or to "check" my character (like to see where I am shot to check direction of firer), but then third person is so exploitable in prone.

So we are going to try both forcing first for prone, and the "sucking camera in close" and see which works best.

Agree too, crouching would really benefit from a more "over the shoulder", we'll try that and put some previs up for people to comment on.

http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/1kzy02/sa_gamescom_gameplay_with_rocket_gamestar_10min/cbukwxm?context=3

Yeh ikr! /Win

 

We kinda posted in the same time btw lawl: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/146017-first-vs-third-person-poll-post-your-vote-here-after-reading-dslyecxi-video-discussion/page-2#entry1447935

 

That is now how a community should always be like! (:

Edited August 24, 2013 by SoulHunter

[BigChef 55]

Please allow me to present:  The Poll

 

It's far too small as a sample to be of any use really but it certainly helps counter the argument that wanting 3rd person removed (which I don't, I want it refined) is purely the viewpoint of me and my Arian brotherhood.

Um...Fraggle...didn't you quit this thread? Really...for the last time? Didn't mean it...really mean it?

;)

 

Nutshell...I like TP, but it's broken, please fix. FP is growing on me, but it's broken, please fix...thank you

Edited August 24, 2013 by BigChef

[Trizzo 632]

But you also have the option of third person so it isn't an unfair advantage.

 

No and no. You just don't seem to comprehend how the TPV advantage works in a defenders/snipers/campers/hallways, favor. This is the misunderstanding.

 

 

 

These could both have TPV on but only one person (the defender/abusher) gets the free information on where the other player is.

 

Anways...good to hear the devs working on trying different solutions to try to please the bottom line player base...the three main areas the TPV is most abusive is:

 

*Prone

*Hallways

*Overwatch

 

*Prone: Forced prone in TPV is a pretty good solution to stop the periscope-a-ton in the outdoors.

*Hallways:...a Deadspace shoulder perspective would go a long way to fixing hallways. Perhaps in urban/town enviroments the TPV becomes locked in a shoulder perspective.

*Overwatch: A concealed person can still have a massvie advantage during overwatch even if their peepers could not actually see over/through their concealment...this type of situation is the hardest to work on a fix. The distinction between running in the open where Rocket says he would like TPV and suddenly stopping in a good postion (such as on top of a hill behind rocks) and being able to recon an entire area free of consequence will be hard to tweak. No ideas for that.

*Gear/UI checks: would also be a pretty good way to examine your character you gear and maybe for a status check.

 

So long as to obvious imbalances are worked on a compromise is sensible.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Trizzo

[Shadow Man 142]

Just looking at the reality of dayz today, 95% of the dayz population playing on 3dp server do not give a flying fart about what you keep calling "exploits" or "advantages".

 

Why? Well, if you think a little bit you'll quickly figure out that each and every player of that 95% has exactly the same "exploits" or "advantages" and do not, therefore, see anyone being advantaged compared to the rest.

 

Cheers,

 

_Anubis_

 

p.s. I will try to explain better. I agree with you 3dp is unrealistic and as such, provide the so-called periscope view. I wrote in a previous post that it is simple a consequence of the GPU technology and how images in perspective are rendered. I also suggested a possible way to cope with that, but I doubt about its implementation (overhead). However, I do not agree the periscope view represent an "advantage" or "exploit" or "cheat" or you-name-it for the simple reason every player using 3dp has the same periscope view. It is just one of the million unrealistic things in dayz and since everyone can do it, nobody is at disadvantage.

 

 

With regards to every player having the same "exploits" and "advantages", I would say they are available to everyone but crucially, not all at the same time. What I mean is, if you are advancing towards a town/village, 3rd person gives another player hiding near buildings an advantage by being able to see you advance, but does not, at the same time offer any advantage to the player approaching. If the advancing player decides to stop and camp, then they would have an advantage over an approaching player. Basically, it always gives a defending/hiding player an advantage and never an advancing moving player. Which gives rise to all the rooftop campers who spy on everyone.

 

If you honestly do not think that being able to watch an approaching player while remaining absolutely undetectable(by means of a game mechanic) is an unfair advantage, then I guess the conversation ends here.