First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Trizzo 632]

If you really can't see what is wrong with third person from this, you really need to stop and think for a while.

 

PS: I'd really like to know why this picture is so worth ignoring by the third person players :)

 

/thead or rather any pro third person arguments in regards to gameplay. Now if anybody says "well the other player can use third person" they are missing the point. When you are the aggressor (in terms of attacking a postion) third person leaves you stone cold dead and you will never get the same advantage that the person standing at the end of the door has over you. This is how/why it is imbalanced.

 

Vicco and co have never and can never respond to this situation. Any objective person will conceede the point and move on. It's time to think of a fix to the TPV...time now would be better used discussing alternates instead circular discussion. In this regard I have almost no useful insights besdies full amputation.

[Trizzo 632]

Because they see themselves as the "invisible" player laying in wait for the unsuspecting "noob" about to take a face-full of lead maybe?

 

Rofl I was this person...

 

In one of my first few DayZ guides, which was about CQB

 

 

I got onto a kill streak and decided to make commentary. All the ins and outs of 'CQB' and 'what to do'... the kpro I was trying to spread hard earned wisdom. EVERY kill was by leaning via E or Q and rotating the camera out as far as possible to peer around corners and BAMBAMBAM uspecting AKM to the face...so good

 

Now it's FPV in any server and the intensity and the tactics are actually there. Wether it's rolling firefights or slicing the pie. Without the periscope you have to make moves, supress and use tatics to stay alive instead of a magical UAV.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Trizzo

[DemonGroover 8836]

There is no defence for 3rd person in a military simulation - i actually have no idea why it would even appear in the game, i assume BI put it in for commanding and viewing your squad or something . 

 

It is an exploit pure and simple. If i can lie atop a fire tower and view my surroundings without showing myself i am exploiting and yes i call this cheating.  Let's not be coy about calling it what it is. 

 

However 3rd person is and always will be part of the game.  I am fine with that i just hope there are plenty of 1st person servers in the SA.

 

We aren't all going to come to a resolution and agree.  This thread is surely almost done.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

So here's what I learned so far.  Many of those wanting 1P only are rude twits.  Not all.

They call others "cheats."

They suggest others leave the thread.

They insult.

They pout, and pound their fists while they repeat the same old nonsense over and over again. 

 

They refuse to recognize that tactical decisions and skill are far more important than any 3P advantage.

In DayZ you always move, and always look.  NOBODY can shoot you without exposing himself first.

In DayZ you scout, then go in with your feet moving, your eyes open, and an exit plan.

 

No different than sniper defense   You EXPECT a sniper.  You EXPECT somebody behind that parapet wall scanning you.

You EXPECT somebody behind that yard wall.  In real life they'd have cracks in the wall to look through.

In houses they'd have shades, and you couldn't see in.

That's real life.  Defend against it.  DayZ does a good job of simulating it with 3P.  It has no other means.

Real life would be worse.  Defending/sniping always has advantages.  Learn to neutralize them.

 

Throwing a smoke grenade into a building before entering, going in and taking a position away from the door can neutralize a defensive advantage.

Team play can draw enemies out.   Flanking can expose them.

Aw, you didn't think of that, or don't want to bothered to with it?  Too bad.

If it's a team, in 1P the guy behind a rooftop parapet wall won't even have to look.  His scout watching from the hill will just say, "He's 20 yards north of you, back turned. Pop him now." 

You gonna cry and cry about that "exploit?"

 

Personally I don't give a fuck if it's 1st or 3rd, as long as the game works.

But you twitch shooters probably won't win this one.

Every argument you've made is lame to me.

 

 

I want to bean you for your calm points but you let the FP trolls get you.  Ignore them.  Trolling DayZ for TP fans is like casting 2 feet into a pond at a fish farm.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Guis, guis, it's ok.  I've pondered long and hard and have the perfect solution that allows us to keep our magical eyes but make it more fitting with the survival situation.  There are literally no negatives to this suggestion.

 

 

I'll leave now.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

 You mean they have proven why third person shouldn't exist in an FPS in every single way possible

 

 

How does third person exist in a first person shooter again?  It doesn't, if third person is available then game is a Third Person Shooter, not a First Person Shooter. 

 

[Hetstaine 10852]

Guis, guis, it's ok.  I've pondered long and hard and have the perfect solution that allows us to keep our magical eyes but make it more fitting with the survival situation.  There are literally no negatives to this suggestion.

 

 

I'll leave now.

 

 

 But how am i to admire my clothes you fool ?? And don't be silly and mention the gear screen.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Lets not argue semantics.  

 

The question is:  Can it be improved upon because currently many regard it as game-breaking and the people that don't have yet to put forward a solid reason why the devs shouldn't at least try to fix it.

[Hetstaine 10852]

Day 36...

looking down into a small wreck of a village i can see a medic centre, against my better will i know i have to go in and look for some supplies. Fuck ! I have used all of my painkillers and have no bandages or antibiotics left. It is raining and i feel like death warmed up. The last thing i want is to go down there but i must, i have seen a couple of infected wander through the deserted streets and i have no idea if anyone is down there or not. Once again i put my binoculars too my eyes and give all buildings a thorough look over..nothing moves.

I have approached slowly from tree to tree and now have a mere thirty metre sprint across open ground to get to the first run down house that will cover me from possible prying eyes within any of the other buildings. Ok..it is now or never, rainsoaked and needing to move before i fall prey to my fastly sapping energy i leave my large backpack behind the tree, shoulder my rifle tightly...clasping my pistol i break cover.

Sprinting, the rain beating against me, my heart pounding, my vision clear and focused on my objective.25 metres. My feet are pounding the wet grass and i am moving faster than i feel i ever have before, scanning, always scanning left, right and above in front of me.15 metres. I can see the wall of the house and its broken glass windows in perfect detail, one curtain ripped and flapping slowly in the slight wind. 10 metres. Still no movement from any of the buildings that i have been constantly keeping in mind. 5 metres. I turn quickly and check my six.. suddenly my legs are jelly and i don't understand why i am faltering, they keep moving but i have no control over them, my hand has gone to my chest where it feels i have been hit by a truck, i slam into the concrete wall still running and fall back on my side..looking down i see my chest opened up, blood streaming..everything is fuzzy and grey..then black.

Day 0...

For an hour i have been on this roof and by using eye in the sky technology i have been able to dominate this whole town. 7 victims in an hour and i have never even played before ! I was told this was something different and would require different skillz when in fact it is childs play. Risk v reward or something..there is no risk...lolz. The last guy seemed like a ninja, flirting from tree to tree and he took forever to get down here, i nearly lost him a couple of times in the rain but he never really had a chance as he would have had to navigate the streets below me eventually, and they only have to turn their back to me once and it is over. I might change out to my pistol for the next one and give him a sporting chance. I do look brilliant in this beanie but i wish it would stop raining so i could see the true colours of my other snappy clothing !

[dulix11 731]

Lets not argue semantics.  

 

The question is:  Can it be improved upon because currently many regard it as game-breaking and the people that don't have yet to put forward a solid reason why the devs shouldn't at least try to fix it.

 

I would say yes, just make players and zombies invisible in 3rd person until you are making direct eye contact with them in 1st person.

[Hetstaine 10852]

Lets not argue semantics.  

 

The question is:  Can it be improved upon because currently many regard it as game-breaking and the people that don't have yet to put forward a solid reason why the devs shouldn't at least try to fix it.

Well, i honestly cannot see any reason for it being in, even with the shoulder cam ideas or bringing it closer to the player and what not..what then is the use of it ?? If it is going to pulled in so close it negates it even being in game. I have been thinking as has everyone and there has still not been a good way to work with a 3dp view that has any pros.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Story

Holy hell that made me laugh.  I'll drop the beans off later.

[DemonGroover 8836]

I think i have a compromise.

 

For those who want to play 3rd person they must be this character.

 

 

Breaking news - Latest 3rd person clothing and backpack!!

 

Edited August 24, 2013 by DemonGroover

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

meh it.  here I go....

 

 

 

 

If you really can't see what is wrong with third person from this, you really need to stop and think for a while.

 
PS: I'd really like to know why this picture is so worth ignoring by the third person players :)

 

 

 

[DemonGroover 8836]

Yeah but what about the guy outside behind the door?

 

1st vs 1st fair fight

 

1st (inside) vs 3rd (outside) unfair fight

 

1st (outside) vs 3rd (inside) fair fight

 

3rd vs 3rd unfair fight

 

Basically this proves that the 3rd person camera needs to be tightened to the character so as to prevent the amazing free flowing eyes.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

There is no defence for 3rd person in a military simulation - i actually have no idea why it would even appear in the game, i assume BI put it in for commanding and viewing your squad or something . 

 

It is an exploit pure and simple. If i can lie atop a fire tower and view my surroundings without showing myself i am exploiting and yes i call this cheating.  Let's not be coy about calling it what it is. 

 

However 3rd person is and always will be part of the game.  I am fine with that i just hope there are plenty of 1st person servers in the SA.

 

We aren't all going to come to a resolution and agree.  This thread is surely almost done.

 

 

Well, as mentioned by rocky the rocketman, this may not be possible in the SA.  If a clever contextual third person is implemented then a prone a-hole hiding on a tower wouldn't be able to see much..  Crouch or standing would be needed to see the area clearly.  As the game is now, it sucks for most FPS fans.  There's no argument for that.  FPS guys that refuse to adapt to a Third Person View in a Shooter are just going to have a hard time at it all.

 

Don't get me wrong.  I like FPS now that I can actually use it in DayZ but TPS offers far more tactics.   The trouble with TPS is map design.  They require a certain level of awareness when designing and defintiely when playing.  There are a lot of shitty TPS out there and the formula for a shitty TPS involves bad level design, an awful angle, and a shitty cam (seeing through walls).

 

As a TPS supporter and FPS player, the biggest issue I see comes from the map design.  Take the Polana factory for example.  There are pretty much zero approaches a player can take to infiltrate the compound unseen but there are plenty of sniping points to cover all entrances and exits.   That is going to naturally benefit a sniper, hands down, and perhaps this is how it was all designed to begin with.  Anyone with a scope is going to have the upper hand there.  Is that realistic?  Sure.  is that fun?  Not for everyone.  Is that actually important though?  Maybe you shouldn't be trying to head towards one of the hottest spots for group looting with nothing but an Enfield you found at the Three Valleys barns.

[Garmalak 16]

So we can all agree the free-look must be modified, perhaps into a behind the shoulder view (think mass effect)

Now let's call rocket

Edited August 24, 2013 by Garmalak

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

I would say yes, just make players and zombies invisible in 3rd person until you are making direct eye contact with them in 1st person.

 

 

I'm sorry but that is the worst suggestion I've ever read.

[Garmalak 16]

I'm sorry but that is the worst suggestion I've ever read.

And he posts in the nude

[Feral (DayZ) 622]

with a stance system like Arma 3 it is now possible to peek from behind walls/rocks etc using First person without exposing too much of yourself.

 

this could be tweaked further by adding a couple of nuanced prone stances, maybe up on elbows and another up on hands to allow safer peeking from a prone position.

 

edit - maybe a peek feature for high walls?

 

Edited August 24, 2013 by (MUC) Feral

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Yeah but what about the guy outside behind the door?

 

1st vs 1st fair fight

 

1st (inside) vs 3rd (outside) unfair fight

 

1st (outside) vs 3rd (inside) fair fight

 

3rd vs 3rd unfair fight

 

Basically this proves that the 3rd person camera needs to be tightened to the character so as to prevent the amazing free flowing eyes.

 

 

And?  What about the guy outside the door in first (when you're in first)?  Same shit.  you come out the door and you don't see him but he sees you first.    the only real difference comes from how much water you perceive the glass as having.  He sees you first, you're dead.   Where's the difference?  You look left but he's to your right.. 

 

You're more tied up in what the other player sees rather than your own experience.

 

Ok.  So let's pretend for a moment, just a moment, that TPV is ditched.  How do you justify the FoV slider then?  Some folks use wicked monitors or push 3 screens from 3 different beasts of cards.  Do you not think people would "exploit" that?

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

You can't look around corners without exposing your head how ever many monitors you have or however high your FOV is set using FPV.

[DemonGroover 8836]

And?  What about the guy outside the door in first (when you're in first)?  Same shit.  you come out the door and you don't see him but he sees you first.    the only real difference comes from how much water you perceive the glass as having.  He sees you first, you're dead.   Where's the difference?  You look left but he's to your right.. 

 

But that is a fair fight.  If someone sees you first then they deserve to have the upper hand.

 

But having the possibility of someone being able to look around corners is not a fair fight,  not if the only reason they see you is because they can look into the doorway by hiding behind it and switching to a god like perspective.

 

Lets just hope there are enough servers for all of us and then this 1st vs 3rd debate won't matter.  The issue i think most have atm is that finding a decent 1st person only server is hard to find and if you have to play on a 3rd enabled you almost have to play ball and use the 3rd exploits as well otherwise you wont last long in a firefight.

[Feral (DayZ) 622]

 

 

 

Lets just hope there are enough servers for all of us and then this 1st vs 3rd debate won't matter. 

I think we all know that 3rd person will utterly dominate server numbers.

 

First person will become a niche with a few dedicated servers.

 

This is better than nowt of course but it will be a real shame if they marginalise those of us who want to play properly.

[Private Evans 1303]

 But how am i to admire my clothes you fool ?? And don't be silly and mention the gear screen.

 

 

get in some mirrors  ;)

Edited August 24, 2013 by Private Evans