First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[dsi24 227]

Go and watch any popular YTer play DayZ.  Frequently you'll see them lie on a roof, spinning the cam around  like a mystical all seeing God and then only actually exposing themselves to take a shot at someone.  Well that's bollocks.  To look over the edge of a building you should have to poke your head over.  The same applies to looking around corners.

This is why I can't watch any DayZ videos, it's always so terrible... walk up to a corner? Look around it with your magic invisible eyes first... walk up to a vehicle? Check all around it with your magic invisible eyes first... walk next to a wall? Be constantly scanning the other side of it with your magic invisible eyes... It's second nature to people, so sad. Every DayZ video has the potential to be as nerve wracking and exciting as the most insane moments that ShackTac (and other first person only groups/players) upload of ArmA, but third person just wipes that excitement and drama away.

A context sensitive third person view would be neat but how? Most of its exploitation comes into play before combat starts so tying it to the combat mode is pointless. Tying it to an invisible "players are nearby" flag would still allow you to gather data by the fact that it stops working, as would any other effective context sensitive method I can think up... the only way I can see third person working without exploits is making fog of war a thing, which probably isn't even possible and is certainly a disproportionate amount of effort for how useful it would be afterwards (you're removing all of third person's useful functionality, effectively removing it from the game). It's one of those things where the effort put in to reign it in and make it part of the game is just too much, especially when all you can do is make people not want to use it anymore. It's so simple to just change a line in the default difficulty settings and solve the problem for most, and with some more work, remove it entirely and solve it for everyone.

Also _Anubis_ I don't really see why having other terrible problems with the game is a reason to keep this terrible problem with the game, could you explain your logic?

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

The first thing I'd do is lock the height of the 3rd person cam to keep it at eye level.  Straight away that'd rule out looking over walls, up/down stairwells and over the edge of buildings etc.

 

The context sensitive part could maybe involve closing the cam in tight to the player when they are against a wall.  So in open spaces you can still enjoy looking at yourself running around but when you take cover of some sort or camp/hide etc. the view gets restricted appropriately.  Maybe the cam would also then be locked or severely restricted in a position behind the players head.

 

I'm honestly not sure really but I'm sure some brainstorming could come up with a fairly elegant solution that doesn't require a ton of development time.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Fraggle

[Jvalor 59]

I use the 3rd person exploits simply because I know the majority of players use it aswell and I will be damned if I am going to make a game that's already tough to survive in, even harder for myself just for a little more immersion. With that said, anytime I am taking shots, I go into 1st person for the superior accuracy.

 

Removing 3rd person as a whole, especially for the SA would definitely decrease the overall playerbase. Now whether you consider that a good thing or a bad thing is your opinion. Fact is, there are more casual players than hardcore players and 3rd person caters to the casuals. The only way I see it pleasing both parties is having 3rd person enabled servers and seperate 1st person only servers. Like I said, taking 3rd person out of DayZ is going to decrease the playerbase and while that might be okay for you, it won't be okay for the devs who obviously want a larger playerbase.

 

This is mainly talking about SA, but as far as the current mods go, there's not much you can do other than sacrifice some immersion for the 3rd person advantage.

[big_t 66]

 

 

Removing 3rd person as a whole, especially for the SA would definitely decrease the overall playerbase.

 

 

 

removing 3rd person wouldn't budge the player base a solitary person. Everyone knows it's just an exploit/ crutch /comfort thing. After 20min of gameplay they would realize it's the only way to go.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Big_T

[Blindingsun 233]

I prefer 3rd person all day. I like to see the clothing i'm in etc and it just feels better when I run around. I don't like Fps at the best of times.. 

 

I for one would be quitting if they removed 3rd person.

[terrvik 2409]

I would like to point out as well that if third person will be part of DayZ and no first person only servers will be available at all I won't bother buying it since it ruins what, in my opinion, DayZ has the potential to be. It's not about "realism" or how our vision works in real life, it's about storytelling, athmosphere, immersion and gameplay. Third person removes me from the game to much that I might just as well be playing another game entirely.

 

The argument about not forcing your way to play onto others goes both ways. I still can't see (maybe I missed it while reading this thread, there is alot to read :) ) a good point to as to why many players would jump ship if third person is removed, only alot of posts about how it would happen for some reason.

[dulix11 731]

I use both 1st and 3rd. 

 

1st for when I'm in a firefight and killing things.

 

3rd when I'm on the move. 

 

1st person makes my eyes hurt, I can't play with it on when I'm travelling, but shooting at things is easier and makes things more realistic.

 

Keep 3rd person in the SA, but balance it out, I made a thread about it, I'll find it and you can read for yourself.

 

Here it is, please read.

Edited August 22, 2013 by dulix11

[(TMW) Marion Mic 104]

Hi there all,

 

When I started playing DayZ two month ago, I really didn't know about nothing. So not even 3rd person view gave me advantage at the beginning, because I didn't know how to "use/exploit" it. After few days I decided to sign up for Chernarus 101 training, provided by TMW. I got all the basic principles and strategies for survival. It was one on one session that lasted around 4 hours. I learned there, how bandits are exploiting 3rd person view by laying in the house and "looking" through the window directly in supermarket and just waiting for target to get in and shoot them.

 

Later my way leads me to become a doctor. I am very open minded and with a big heart, trying to help people around, rather than killing them. And to put my immersion in, I found it harder to be a hero than a bandit. So the point is, that I have to use 3rd person view, to clear and observe the area. When I clear the area, I let my patient in safe in game environment. Then again, when I do the blood bag, I constantly use 3rd person view to check the area and if there is zombie or player approaching I'll immediately cancel the transfusion and protect my patient. I miss 1st person gameplay, I'd love to play in only 1st person, but I have to think about my patient and his/her safety rather than I enjoy playing in that view. I'd love to feel my true moments in DayZ and create my story around it. But I just can't because I'd be very disadvantage comparing with all the players that do use 3rd person view. If there'd be only 1st person view, than I'd enjoy both do the healing and maximum experience.

 

TL;DR

 

I'd love to see 1st person view only. But patient first, then my deepest fun and immersion to the game.

 

- MM

[svisketyggeren 662]

Although I agree with Dslyecxi, he didnt bring anything new to the 1st vs 3rd discussion...and really, is it really a discussion?

 

I dont think so, some want 3rd person, some want 1st person. I myself play only 1st and do not want to be forced to play on 3rd person servers!

 

And I think thats the most important point...we need to have the option to choose, cos in the dayz mod now its very hard to find a decent 1st person server for the type of mod u wanna play, let alone actually finding a 1st person server.

 

Every time this is brought up on the forum I see alot of 1st person advocates...so why the majority of servers are 3rd person is hard to understand. Maybe most have given up and just accepted that they have to be forced to play on 3rd person servers.

 

We need seperate 3rd and 1st person servers for the standalone...there is no balancing or tweaking, just full segregation

Edited August 22, 2013 by svisketyggeren

[(TMW) Marion Mic 104]

First person on the provision that we can either adjust our Field of Vision in the game settings, or that the current default Field of Vision is expanded slightly,

 

 

Lets say everyone would have to insert their actual interpupillary and vertex eye distance at the character creation section. So that would result in to that, everyone would have his unique Field of Vision.

[RooBurger 285]

 It's nothing to do with realism, as I said earlier, it actually improves gameplay believe it or not.

 

I agree it improves gameplay and all your other points. But for me the realism aspect is part of the reason I'd like to see 3P gone - take it out and bam, gun fights are far more realistic.

 

Anubis, you listed other things which aren't realistic - so what? If there is a component of the game which can easily be improved in terms of realism with no sacrifice to gameplay, why not do it? Just about everything you listed is a glitch, not an intended feature of the game.

 

How far are you willing to take this "but the whole game isn't realistic" argument? Would you be happy to have WoW style magic spells included? laser eyes? levitation? Because that's what 3P is - a magic periscope ability.

Edited August 22, 2013 by RooBurger

[dgeesio 1034]

just as many like 3rd person as like first just saying not many like it just because its not your preference is stupid.

 

only way you get a real representation of figurres is a poll.

 

dont just take it out thats stupid.

 

 

some things work in first person some dont aswell and 3rd person is better. thats why i dont want it personally removed. most people ont get killed cause of 3rd person they get killed because of stupid game choices while playing.

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

removing 3rd person wouldn't budge the player base a solitary person. Everyone knows it's just an exploit/ crutch /comfort thing. After 20min of gameplay they would realize it's the only way to go.

 

the transaltion of the above posts reads as :

 

" play my way or GTFO"..

 

thxfully the above poster isnt the game dev.

 

dayz and the upcoming Sa are both sandboxs, and not simple CoD fps games. theres plenty of room for plenty of options for play style, just cuz you like 1 thing deosnt mean everyone else has to.

 

get over yourself, your simply not that important. your just 1 voice in a sea of voices

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

Although I agree with Dslyecxi, he didnt bring anything new to the 1st vs 3rd discussion...and really, is it really a discussion?

 

I dont think so, some want 3rd person, some want 1st person. I myself play only 1st and do not want to be forced to play on 3rd person servers!

 

And I think thats the most important point...we need to have the option to choose, cos in the dayz mod now its very hard to find a decent 1st person server for the type of mod u wanna play, let alone actually finding a 1st person server.

 

Every time this is brought up on the forum I see alot of 1st person advocates...so why the majority of servers are 3rd person is hard to understand. Maybe most have given up and just accepted that they have to be forced to play on 3rd person servers.

 

We need seperate 3rd and 1st person servers for the standalone...there is no balancing or tweaking, just full segregation

 

 

 

^^^this guy gets it ^^^.

 

and the biggest reason why you dont see many 1st person servers is cuz most people dont care for it.. people go were they like to play.

 

if 1st person only was the way to go, theres be tons of servers and 3rd person servers would be few n far between, but it isnt that way for a reason.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Siberian

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

3rd person view is NOT a terrible problem to me.I accept it is for you.

 

To me 3rd person view is merely unrealistic but I like it more than 1st. The other problems I listed are both unrealistic AND annoying.It is very simple.

 

The main point that I am trying to make is that we have 3rd and 1st person servers, everybody can choose.

 

Be arrogant and say "everbody MUST go 1st because _I_ say so" doesn't work.

 

_Anubis_

Also _Anubis_ I don't really see why having other terrible problems with the game is a reason to keep this terrible problem with the game, could you explain your logic?

Edited August 22, 2013 by _Anubis_

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

the transaltion of the above posts reads as :

 

" play my way or GTFO"..

 

thxfully the above poster isnt the game dev.

 

dayz and the upcoming Sa are both sandboxs, and not simple CoD fps games. theres plenty of room for plenty of options for play style, just cuz you like 1 thing deosnt mean everyone else has to.

 

get over yourself, your simply not that important. your just 1 voice in a sea of voices

3rd person by itself is not really a "playstyle". Using the exploits that the 3rd person view allows is a playstyle. Those exploits are in turn used by everyone, which is why is cheapens the whole experience. In Gamescom video Dean mentioned they're thinking about context sensitive 3rd person restrictions. The devs obviously do want people to change their "playstyle".

Also, DayZ SA being a sandbox game doesn't mean everything should be optional. What this game desperately needs is a much more focused experience or else it is going to turn into a bit of a joke, as is the case with the whole private hive situation with the mod right now.

[Heiduk 265]

... the game is UNREALIST anyway in two million ways, which annoy me far more:

 

hit a pebble car explodes

hide a tent into a rock or tree

no backpack visible with a ghillie

 

...clip long list of broken game mechanics...

 

 

I do believe a restricted or context sensitive 3rd person view could be the answer.

 

Maybe context sensitive 3rd person will fix its problems but it seems like an awful lot of effort to try and fix a mechanic that is fundamentally broken. I would much rather have the developers spend their limited time working on the list of problems in _Anubis_'s list.

 

This is a game design choice. If Rocket et al., are trying to produce an authentic immersive game step 1 should be making as many of the game mechanics as physically plausible as possible. We now have shoes that wear out and avatars with blood types, is it to much to ask that those avatars experience the world from a plausible perspective?

 

Saints Row is hugely entertaining but it isn't authentic or immersive.

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

I'm disappointed that more of you haven't pointed out HOW BAD THE HAND MODELS AND WEAPON ANIMATIONS ARE! Until those are improved, 3rd person p-lease.

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

Maybe context sensitive 3rd person will fix its problems but it seems like an awful lot of effort to try and fix a mechanic that is fundamentally broken.

I agree with this. Many ideas have been posted as to how to remove 3rd person exploits and keep the 3rd person view at the same time and every single one is either extremely complex and hard to implement, or it only partly fixes the issue. Sometimes both. Removing 3rd person and improving 1st person is the way to go here and hopefully rocket realizes that before they decide spending an awful lot of time trying to "fix" 3rd person.

Cap'n, weapon animations are the same in 3rd person view as well.

[korrobravin 96]

Well if we are going to disable first person, then we better force full grass, and full shadows rendered as far out as possible.  Both of these give people who disable them godlike abilities of seeing everything in perfect light, and unobstructed by ground vegetation.

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

. Removing 3rd person and improving 1st person is the way to go here and hopefully rocket realizes that before they decide spending an awful lot of time trying to "fix" 3rd person.

Cap'n, weapon animations are the same in 3rd person view as well.

 

 

OR, Rocket is smart enuf to understand that having a server side option for 3rd person (yes/no), is the easiest way to move forward.

 

no dev time taken up at all for a "feature" that has been in Arma and its sequels since the intial game.

 

if enuf people truely want a 1st person expereince they will play on those servers, but i suspect very few players do.

 

which is why thre are currently few servers set that way.

 

 

 

but thats ok, i know you guys will continue to beat the drum that 5% of the player base is right, and 95% are wrong, and should GTFO.

[DanielTy88 133]

First person only or bust, all third person does is allow you to cheat.

 

Want to argue about third person making you not sick? Third person doesn't change fov, you can disable headbob and post-proc yourself, as well as changing fov (the change to mildots for the permanent cfg method is small and consistent, of course you can always just use 2x numpad-, there is no excuse here.)

 

Want to argue about third person giving you a 'realistic' (pfff) sense of body awareness? You can use freelook, also recognize that you stop moving when you walk into walls, and that moving into bushes makes noise. If you've played literally any other FPS you already know how to do this, (or you're really bad and beyond help) stop trying to use your failures as a gamer as an excuse. It doesn't work.

 

Want to argue about third person letting you look at your character? Freelook does the same thing, and besides, wanting a game breaking feature like third person for something so petty and shallow is sad. A really sad excuse of an excuse.

 

 

 

Gave an opinion, Got bashed because it was different then there opinion...I give up...

Edited August 23, 2013 by DanielTy88

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there

 

@all Tone it down, please.

 

Argue and debate, but keep it calm.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[TheCreeper (DayZ) 3565]

You know, I was going to post this video but didn't. out of fear of it getting yarded. My stance of third person is the same as Dyslexi's, I've been saying it for years, " wanna know what's around a corner, stick your head out, might got shot off, might not ".

[ZooBeastman 12]

Its a good video and I agree with all his points. However I just don't find playing games in first person particularly fun and that doesn't really seem to have been touched upon.

 

I suppose there's always the "well play a different game" perspective but that works both ways. That said I would really like it if you could only see players / zombies in your line of sight, as in others just aren't drawn. 

 

I feel much more protective of a person I can always see than one whose eyes I am looking from (Maybe someone could write a book on that...)