First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[St. Jimmy 1631]

fov slider and no 3rd person. the fact that there is 3rd person in a army sim is just baffling. 

Arma is a sandbox so that's the reason it isn't bad thing when it has 3rd person. With 3rd person you can demonstrate and showcase things better, find some animation bugs or other bugs more easily etc. That's why Arma shouldn't ever get rid off it. PvP/E shouldn't allow 3rd person and that's what DayZ will purely be.

[Wayze 549]

I thought it was about having fun???

Losing stuff you collected for days is fun? Shaking hands caused by fear is fun?

DayZ is about the moments, the story you create. It is about the satisfaction that you actually are the only one ever in gaming history who lived through exactly the same what you just did. Don't tell me that you play DayZ and you are constantly happy. I mean, who the hell is having fun walking 50 minutes through the woods? It is about the 10% time, which are so unique and immersive. It is about the expirience. I really don't think a game is supposed to make fun to be good. There are other elements in the human being that motivate people and in DayZ it is ambition. Sure, you feel satisfaction when playing DayZ, but real fun?

No, DayZ is not about having fun in my opinion.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Wayze

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

Still, those hands..ugh. I think the Winchester has the worst....

[HazZarD87 166]

I don't care about operation flashpoint, that was 10 years ago and game "progresses" over time , not hold on to the way it used to be just because,, well thats the way it used to be.

 

 

I have no time for the operation flashpoint old guard talking points, you are welcome to keep rocking out on that game, I'm sure it was fun for 2001. This is dayz 2013.

 

You miss the central point by miles. 2013 still isn't virtual reality. It's still a monitor with all the limitations that holds. 3rd person fixes that in part. Ofcourse nothing is going to make the 1st person elitist types who use it "because its hard!!" think a bit and understand.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

You miss the central point by miles. 2013 still isn't virtual reality. It's still a monitor with all the limitations that holds. 3rd person fixes that in part. Ofcourse nothing is going to make the 1st person elitist types who use it "because its hard!!" think a bit and understand.

It's got nothing to do with making the game harder for me.  It just makes the game better.

 

When you have to actually poke your head around a corner and risk it being blown off just to have a look the tension and tactics suddenly increase by roughly 764%.

[big_t 66]

You miss the central point by miles. 2013 still isn't virtual reality. It's still a monitor with all the limitations that holds. 3rd person fixes that in part. Ofcourse nothing is going to make the 1st person elitist types who use it "because its hard!!" think a bit and understand.

 

 

IMO 3rd person doesn't fix anything, it cheapens the gameplay and breaks the tension and fun.   I know there are limitations to viewing 1rst person on a rectangular screen, but I believe those limitations far outweigh the unfair visual advantages gained by having a 3rd person omnipotent view of the landscape.  If you want to have more situational awareness just press the " - " button on the keypad, although I never seem to need it.   Use alt key to move the head around.

 

Also I'm not an elitist, I just want the gameplay to be better for everyone.

 

I'd like to make a list summing up the the talking points on either side, as of now the points for 3rd person seem pretty weak sauce other than "it's easier to see my surroundings" , "my guy looks so cool", "demonstrative purposes" , please add your reasons to the list.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Big_T

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

The problem is that 3rd person doesn't really fix the situational awareness issue either, it only partly helps with that while also giving players superhuman abilities, cheapening the whole experience.

A lot of criticism about 1st person view is very valid, but instead of keeping 3rd person because we can't do this or that surely it would be better to improve 1st person instead? We don't need working mirrors in cars for example. Pressing a hotkey to get the camera looking backward would be sufficient. Most other issue would be fairly easy to fix, unlike 3rd person view which is almost "unfixable".

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

The problem is that 3rd person doesn't really fix the situational awareness issue either, it only partly helps with that while also giving players superhuman abilities, cheapening the whole experience.

A lot of criticism about 1st person view is very valid, but instead of keeping 3rd person because we can't do this or that surely it would be better to improve 1st person instead? We don't need working mirrors in cars for example. Pressing a hotkey to get the camera looking backward would be sufficient. Most other issue would be fairly easy to fix, unlike 3rd person view which is almost "unfixable".

Until there are better hands, no. I plan to stick with 3rd for that one reason.

[DemonGroover 8836]

I haven't tried but how do games look when the 1st person perspective is exactly the same as the human eye?  From my understanding the FOV for a human is roughly about 120 degrees horizontally and 100 degrees vertically.

[rn_max 202]

First person vehicle views have to improve dramatically before I'll use them routinely, as they are clumsy immersion breakers.  The recreation of vehicle interiors ... from a static viewpoint ... are complete nonsense in relation to real visibility from inside a vehicle.

 

A system of player camera movement, or compensation for the lack of one, is required to recreate the visual mobility taken for granted by vehicle operators and utterly ignored by game designers.

 

Free look goes some way to meet the need in ArmA, but still doesn't manage to imitate or compensate for the real ability to shift viewpoint around obstacles such as windscreen pillars by planar head movement rather than just rotational.

 

Head bob and vehicle view shake are utterly unrealistic.  The human body has an amazingly complex and effective system for stabilisation of the head and eyes.  Head bob is one of those game design elements that just became trendy and falsely touted, then accepted as "realistic", when it is anything but.  The ArmA ridden vehicle view shake is also utter nonsense, again because of the fixed position player camera with no compensatory consideration.  Head bob can be turned off, which I do, but vehicle shake is a frustratingly unrealistic constant.

 

I would like to see third person views removed, but don't consider the half-arsed implementation of first person views still inherent in games like the ArmA series fit for purpose to do so for vehicles.

 

Nothing has really changed in this respect in over a decade, from the likes of OFP and BF1942 until now.  Sure, the resolution of images has increased and a bunch of cliched and unrealistic gimmick features have hung around like a bad smell ... head bob ... HDR bloom ... motion blur ... ad nauseum.

 

Oh ... and on a Michael Bay note, driving in first person also removes any defence against instant Hollywood death by explosion when colliding with a melon sized rock, or log, or runway light, or any other chicken sized collision mesh bearing statics ... you get the idea.

Edited August 21, 2013 by RN_Max

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

First person vehicle views have to improve dramatically before I'll use them routinely, as they are clumsy immersion breakers.  The recreation of vehicle interiors ... from a static viewpoint ... are complete nonsense in relation to real visibility from inside a vehicle.

 

A system of player camera movement, or compensation for the lack of one, is required to recreate the visual mobility taken for granted by vehicle operators and utterly ignored by game designers.

 

Free look goes some way to meet the need in ArmA, but still doesn't manage to imitate or compensate for the real ability to shift viewpoint around obstacles such as windscreen pillars by planar head movement rather than just rotational.

 

Head bob and vehicle view shake are utterly unrealistic.  The human body has an amazingly complex and effective system for stabilisation of the head and eyes.  Head bob is one of those game design elements that just became trendy and falsely touted, then accepted as "realistic", when it is anything but.  The ArmA ridden vehicle view shake is also utter nonsense, again because of the fixed position player camera with no compensatory consideration.  Head bob can be turned off, which I do, but vehicle shake is a frustratingly unrealistic constant.

 

I would like to see third person views removed, but don't consider the half-arsed implementation of first person views still inherent in games like the ArmA series fit for purpose to do so for vehicles.

 

Nothing has really changed in this respect in over a decade, from the likes of OFP and BF1942 until now.  Sure, the resolution of images has increased and a bunch of cliched and unrealistic gimmick features have hung around like a bad smell ... head bob ... HDR bloom ... motion blur ... ad nauseum.

 

Oh ... and on a Michael Bay note, driving in first person also removes any defence against instant Hollywood death by explosion when colliding with a melon sized rock, or log, or runway light, or any other chicken sized collision mesh bearing statics ... you get the idea.

I have every right to enjoy bloom and blur. Also, you forgot to add that 1st person hand models suck balls.

[methr1k2dop3 323]

hotkey camera change and reap the benefits if you a first person kind of guy.

problem solved.

 

i personally think 3rd person gives a more fluid feel to the game. 

getting to see everything around you and being more aware of your surroundings i feel is key.

first person is sloppy, specially when it comes to Dayz with zombies crazy run directions.

Edited August 21, 2013 by methr1k2dop3

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

 

 

When I want some mindless action I play something else.

 

oh you mean the KoS in cherno game ?

[Vicco 123]

If the game has good "body awareness" 1P is fine.  DayZ doesn't.  Not that it's a big deal, until it hampers movement in tight spots.

I appreciate "immersion," but that translates differently for different people.  I don't miss "immersion" when in 3P.  Same game.

Just play a little differently.

Games are always about adjusting to their demands.

 

Without 3P, unless other changes are made, DayZ is clunky and unrealistic.  The other changes would be the ability to climb and peek over walls.  Crawl into hidey holes.  Climb trees.  You know.  REAL LIFE.

 

Here's a question for the "realism/immersion" advocates.

Why do you get magna-vision, about 3-4 times better than the human eye, by right-clicking the mouse?

Do you want that removed? 

Maybe you do.  I like it myself,  But it sure as hell isn't "realistic."  No problem for me rolling with it.

 

 

 

[BigChef 55]

hotkey camera change and reap the benefits if you a first person kind of guy.

problem solved.

 

i personally think 3rd person gives a more fluid feel to the game. 

getting to see everything around you and being more aware of your surroundings i feel is key.

first person is sloppy, specially when it comes to Dayz with zombies crazy run directions.

The crazy Ivans the zeds do aren't much easier to deal with in 3rd person! Opinions were asked for and here's mine in a nutshell...first person as it is doesn't work smoothly enough in all aspects of gameplay (in fact just plain sucks in a few) to completely ditch 3rd person. Leave it to the servers...why interfere with how others play the game? There are plenty of "Holy fuck I won the lottery" load outs with 550 vehicle servers, you don't play them, don't play the 3rd person enabled servers either.

[DanielTy88 133]

I am all for first person, I just think you should have the option to choose between a 1st and 3rd person server. I know a few people who get sick/motion sickness from playing in 1st person. Why limit the options when you could have a choice.

Edited August 22, 2013 by DanielTy88

[dsi24 227]

First person only or bust, all third person does is allow you to cheat.

 

Want to argue about third person making you not sick? Third person doesn't change fov, you can disable headbob and post-proc yourself, as well as changing fov (the change to mildots for the permanent cfg method is small and consistent, of course you can always just use 2x numpad-, there is no excuse here.)

 

Want to argue about third person giving you a 'realistic' (pfff) sense of body awareness? You can use freelook, also recognize that you stop moving when you walk into walls, and that moving into bushes makes noise. If you've played literally any other FPS you already know how to do this, (or you're really bad and beyond help) stop trying to use your failures as a gamer as an excuse. It doesn't work.

 

Want to argue about third person letting you look at your character? Freelook does the same thing, and besides, wanting a game breaking feature like third person for something so petty and shallow is sad. A really sad excuse of an excuse.

 

Here's a great image someone posted on the /r/dayz post, explains everything wrong with third person in two pictures.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Dsi1

[BigChef 55]

(or you're really bad and beyond help) stop trying to use your failures as a gamer as an excuse. It doesn't work.

wanting a game breaking feature like third person for something so petty and shallow is sad. A really sad excuse of an excuse.

 

Telling someone that their style of play, that differs from yours is "shallow and sad" is shallow and sad...not constructive

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

Here's a question for the "realism/immersion" advocates.

Why do you get magna-vision, about 3-4 times better than the human eye, by right-clicking the mouse?

Do you want that removed? 

Maybe you do.  I like it myself,  But it sure as hell isn't "realistic."  No problem for me rolling with it.

RMB zoom is in fact supposed to simulate the fact that the "resolution" of our eyes is much larger than that of a computer monitor.

 

[Fonebook 126]

Why do you get magna-vision, about 3-4 times better than the human eye, by right-clicking the mouse?

 

When a person is trying to focus on a distant object, the human squints the eye. This uses muscles to flex the eyeball so that the lens of the eye can see better at great distance. Perhaps it is not perfectly emulated, but the right click zoom is a lot like squinting. Also, when you squint it cuts down on peripheral vision, just as the game does when zooming in.

 

3rd person is definitely very far from realism, the RMB zoom... not so much, pretty good emulation of squinting to focus on a far away object. This is why binoculars are nice, no straining the eyeballs. 

[RooBurger 285]

First person only or bust, all third person does is allow you to cheat.

 

Want to argue about third person making you not sick? Third person doesn't change fov, you can disable headbob and post-proc yourself, as well as changing fov (the change to mildots for the permanent cfg method is small and consistent, of course you can always just use 2x numpad-, there is no excuse here.)

 

Want to argue about third person giving you a 'realistic' (pfff) sense of body awareness? You can use freelook, also recognize that you stop moving when you walk into walls, and that moving into bushes makes noise. If you've played literally any other FPS you already know how to do this, (or you're really bad and beyond help) stop trying to use your failures as a gamer as an excuse. It doesn't work.

 

Want to argue about third person letting you look at your character? Freelook does the same thing, and besides, wanting a game breaking feature like third person for something so petty and shallow is sad. A really sad excuse of an excuse.

 

Here's a great image someone posted on the /r/dayz post, explains everything wrong with third person in two pictures.

 

I created that picture. After debating a few people on the internet, I realised that most of them really had no idea how 3P actually affects combat dynamics, which blew my mind as it seemed so obvious to me.

 

Sure, we're just playing a game. But there is absolutely no need to destroy the realism of gunfights by turning it into an invisible periscope battle.

[dsi24 227]

(or you're really bad and beyond help) stop trying to use your failures as a gamer as an excuse. It doesn't work.

wanting a game breaking feature like third person for something so petty and shallow is sad. A really sad excuse of an excuse.

 

Telling someone that their style of play, that differs from yours is "shallow and sad" is shallow and sad...not constructive

 

Admiring your character in third person isn't a 'playstyle'! Do you have anything else to say? Because trying to use "but i like seein muh character" is a sorry-ass excuse for keeping third person, you can see your character in first person!

Edited August 22, 2013 by Dsi1

[DemonGroover 8836]

^^

 

Yep in the new inventory for SA you can view and rotate your character and all.

 

Admiring your character isnt really a reason to have 3rd person anymore.

Edited August 22, 2013 by DemonGroover

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

Very well done video.

 

However the following debate seems to miss the obvious: there are people who simply likes 3D view because it provides more fun and dayz is a game: I have always played each game in that way because I liked it more. It is as simple as that. 

 

Do I realize that view provides an unrealistic periscope/see-thru-walls effect? But of course! And I do not give a rat ass about that because I know the game is UNREALIST anyway in two million ways, which annoy me far more:

 

hit a pebble car explodes

hide a tent into a rock or tree

no backpack visible with a ghillie

can carry 100 Kg of stuff and run for 100 miles uphill  no stop

find automatic weapon and ammos everywhere

Z seeing and hitting thru walls

turbo Z effect - faster than Bolt

land-mine Z (get anywhere near and insta-hit)

camo has no effect on visibility

grass not rendered beyond a distance - can't hide in field

I can pilot an helicopter or aircraft

press RMB and get hawk vision

I can fill a bottle at a fountain but not drink at a fountain

with nametags on I can spot another player anywhere

you may die if your pinkie is hit by a sniper

I can pass the wall in a fire station

Z do not need to open doors

I can get a blood transfusion in 5 seconds (oh yeah dude, that is hard-core realism!)

...

 

Do I need to carry on?

 

The third vs. first person is a 100% non-issue because I can choose which server (3dp on or off) to join: to each his own. But all that UNREALISTIC crap mentioned above is always there sadly.

 

If one does not like 3DP simply not use it and, to avoid the handicap, choose a 1st person only server.

 

Cheers,

 

_Anubis_

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Well, having seen Deans latest comments on it it's likely we'll see some sort of restricted or context sensitive 3rd person view.  If they can do that well then that's good enough for me.

 

There's 2 pages of this discussion purely about vehicles.  Well, I don't really care about vehicles, they are not a massive part of the game and allowing 3rd person view in them doesn't suddenly give you magical abilities in a PVP situation.

 

For me the 1 very reason to restrict or remove 3rd person is the way it's used as an exploit.  Yes I know everyone can use it so it's not "unfair", that's not the point.  The point is if I can just stand beside a tall wall without a care in the world and scan a whole area for other players by looking over it or lie on a roof basically being invisible because the cam allows me to use a magical periscope to scan the surrounding area it just detracts massively from the game.

 

Go and watch any popular YTer play DayZ.  Frequently you'll see them lie on a roof, spinning the cam around  like a mystical all seeing God and then only actually exposing themselves to take a shot at someone.  Well that's bollocks.  To look over the edge of a building you should have to poke your head over.  The same applies to looking around corners.

 

If people can't see the MASSIVE tactical difference between the two then I'm lost for words.  When you have to actually physically look over/around walls etc in 1st person view firefights suddenly become way more tense.

 

Edit -@ Anubis Again - It's nothing to do with realism, as I said earlier, it actually improves gameplay believe it or not.  Anyhoo, I do believe a restricted or context sensitive 3rd person view could be the answer.  I'm personally in favour of removing as much choice as possible from server admins.  We should leave all of that to the mods.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Fraggle