SA: Departure from ArmA Animations?

[dallas 5195]

The latest E3 Stadnalone devbuild has planted a seed of concern.

I hate to invoke the WarZ word, but after watching the latest build I was left somewhat alarmed. It's not news to me that Rocket felt ArmA's animations needed a redesign, that he and BI had different philosophies concerning the core design of the engine's animations. When I saw the latest devbuild, I found new appreciation for ArmA's not always universally loved animations and got WarZ associations from watching the new ones.

I understand that WarZ carries heavy weight and are often used to provoke and exaggerate, but the new animation philosophy, where all animations are fleeting and easily interrupted, really reminds me of WarZ gameplay footage. In WarZ as soon as you're not pressing down a movement key, your player model instantly clips into an idle animation, which is a constant immersion breaker, because it look unnatural and cheap. The new jump animations also reminds me of WarZ's movement scheme.

ArmA's animations has been accused of much, but despite of BI's animation design, ArmA has had a long and loyal following of players with real military experience. ArmA's grenade throwing has received a lot of criticism, but have you ever tried to throw a 400g hand grenade 30-40 meters? It's not an instant an smooth motion, first of all you want to pull the pin without dropping the thing at your feet and first then you want to throw it. I don't really like ArmA 3's new approach, where you're able to throw 5 grenades in five seconds, but I digress.

ArmA's animations are indeed clunky or heavy, but so is your body, your limbs and gear. Mass in motion doesn't just instantly cease, because you stop applying muscle power, you don't come to an instant halt, when you want to stop sprinting. I think ArmA's animations appear a lot more clunky, simply because the only alternative is the generic shooter control scheme, where all objects are either too tall to navigate or can be reached by a crouch-jump. Unlike these standard shooters, ArmA's player is a vehicle, a mass and not just a camera script with first person animations. This mass helps us players to immerse ourself into ArmA's virtual world. ArmA's virtual world is not just a pretty face, it feels real, it is real. Distances are real, distances affects your stamina, your accuracy and it's objects has to be negotiated, by a real body loaded down with equipment.

DayZ was a succes despite ArmA's animations, but maybe the people, who embraced DayZ, despite never given ArmA the time of the day, learned to distinguish movement scheme from arcade shooters and ArmA's more advanced movement. ArmA's movement isn't 100% perfect, but there's a difference between how you move, when you're a top trained free-running gymnastic acrobat and when you're a soldier or survivor, where you rely primarily on your feet, ankles, knees and legs for transportation.

We've all been killed by bugs, by doorways, ladders and stairways. But we've also attempted to run down the stairs in a barn and to be honest, if you were to jump down some stares or down to the floor below, with a loaded backpack, holding a rifle in both hands, a sprained ankle would not be entirely unrealistic. Most ArmA and DayZ players, learned than doing a 360 prone in a narrow doorway, closing a door shut on your legs or sprinting down stairs was a risky thing to do and usually had to make that mistake only once.

Maybe DayZ didn't only succeed despite of ArmA, maybe DayZ also succeeded because of ArmA.

TLDR: I think the departure of ArmA's animation philosophy is a mistake, I think despite weight and the decreased reaction times, it's actually is one of the ingredients, that makes interaction with ArmA's world immersive, where a player body is a real body. A body in motion, a body you have to protect and a body with physical limitations.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I'm out of beans and about to go to bed but you make some great points and I'll come back to discuss tomorrow :)

[SmashT 10907]

I'd prefer the animations instantly stop then having to stand there and wait for an animation to play of me pulling out a weapon while I am being attacked by zombies. Personally I still don't think they are fluid enough.

Edited June 14, 2013 by SmashT

[Steak and Potatoes 13480]

I'd prefer the animations instantly stop then having to stand there and wait for an animation to play of me pulling out a weapon while I am being attacked by zombies.

+1 for this

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Some animations have to have a break though. Getting stuck in the tent setup animation, refueling animation, or binocular animation can be pretty annoying and even lead to death. I haven't tried to throw an actual grenade but I imagine you could probably hold on to it an stop throwing it in real life. They don't have to stop immediately but they shouldn't lock us in place.

A sudden stop to walking/running though.. that's kind of lame.

[methr1k2dop3 323]

I think a lot of people felt the same way.

but it being pre alpha i don't think i'll lose a minute of sleep... yet.

good read. beans to you sir.

off topic- I have never seen gameplay of WarZ just heard horrific stories about how bad that game is. maybe i should check it out so i could appreciate good animations.

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

Rocket has said they may have taken it too far, but I like the way the movement scheme is headed.

This seems like more of a straight-up complaint than a suggestion (which I didn't expect from you, of all people) and I attribute that to the "alien" animations, compared to what we're used to.

The grenade problem lies with BI's insistance on cycling an entire animation, resetting to neutral, THEN being allowed to continue.

If I throw ANYTHING. A grenade, an apple, a feckin' cinder-block! I can move freely; immediately before, during and IMMEDIATELY after.

In ArmA 2, a lightly thrown grenade can land at your feet (I've done it a couple of times), leaving you forced to wait until it kills you because the animation is unnecessarily drawn out.

The same goes for weapon-drawing, vaulting and moving from prone/crouch/standing positions.

Now, I realise us gamers spend a lot of time on our asses, but I know for a fact I don't move like drunk Robocop when the heat is on.

Agility and dexterity are needed.

[dallas 5195]

I think it's important to raise these concerns, while Rocket is still evaluating the build.

The animations transitions are at the moment is simply a thorn in my eye.

I really hate to do this, because I know, they've put a lot of work into reworking the animations, but there's a reason, why I play ArmA more any other shooters out there and part of it is that the player body carries some actual weight. I'm not saying BI's animation philosophy is 100% perfect, but the standalone's complete departure from it, causes the clipping that I describe as the WarZ instant idle effect.

Concerning refueling and tent animations, if you want a instant abort option, they also need to design a mechanic, where you drop the 25kg jerry can and splashes fuel all over yourself and accidentally ingnite yourself, when you discharge your firearm and generally it's not a good idea to set up a tent, when a zombie is gnawing at your leg. These animations are already very short as they are now. I also solved my so called binocular accidents re-binding by binoculars to 2xB.

As for grenades, I confess they are a little messy, but throwing a grenades takes your full attention, something you commit to and is generally not something you do in the middle of a melee.

There's a big difference between an apple and a grenade, one of them has a wartime safety distance of the nearest solid object and a peacetime safety distance of 275 meters. Grenades in games doesn't reflect reality much. When you retrieve it and pull the pin you really want a firm grip on it, you also want to alert everyone around you about what you're about to do and then you want to know exactly where you're throwing it and know exactly what kind of obstacles,you need to be sure are between your fragile skin and the hundreds of tiny steel fragments that are distributed by the explosion.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Dallas

[m.w. vindicator 880]

I tend to like the new animations. My only gripe is the instant stop when running.

Other than that I like the rest of it.

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

As for grenades, I confess they are a little messy, but throwing a grenades takes your full attention and is generally not something you do in the middle of a melee.

There's a big difference between an apple and a grenade, one of them has a wartime safety distance of the nearest solid object and a peacetime safety distance of 275 meters. Grenades in games doesn't reflect reality much. When you retrieve it and pull the pin you really want a firm grip on it, you also want to alert everyone around you about what you're about to do and then you want to know exactly where you're throwing it and know exactly what kind of obstacles,you need to be sure are between your fragile skin and the hundreds of tiny steel fragments that are distributed by the explosion.

You seem to be afraid of grenades? They are incredibly dangerous but they aren't heavy and aren't hard to throw. They are designed that way for a reason. You can deploy grenades fast and as accurate as your aim and arm will allow. Typically you would throw them from behind cover and into your supposed enemy position to eliminate them. Maybe you've watched too much of "In the Army Now".

Anyway. We've seen what animations look like when they are too slow, unresponsive; IE, Arma II. We've seen what they look like when they are too fast, super fluid; IE, Day Z (Can we stop calling it standalone??) So we just need to find the middle ground. I am not aware if they are using the new skeleton in this build, I think I heard them mentioning it but not sure if that's confirmed or not, but I do think the Arma III movements (aside from instant grenade throwing) were good.

Rainbow Six 3 (and possibly earlier versions) had perfect grenade animations. You switched to grenade, making it your primary weapon. You aimed your camera, up a little higher if you wanted to throw it farther, and then you hit the trigger. A fluid animation of pulling the pin and throwing the grenade started, and that was it. Back to your primary weapon.

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

I pretty well covered my point about being able to move before during and after the action. I'm not here to debate wartime safety.

If you think about it as going from one extreme to the other, this violent departure from ArmA2/DayZmod handling gives the devs the perfect opportunity to test the water and find a nice way to work one system towards the other.

RE: "weight".

I'd like to see some literal weight added to movement and handling, in line with encumberance and inventory content.

Early days still, but I thought I'd put it out there.

I much prefer the movement-style in the E3 build

Running animations looked ever so slightly "floaty". That's my main concern.

Is that because of the actual animation, or does it just need tweaking? I don't know these things.

It'd be nice to hear the Dev's take on it.

EDIT: (Spelling)

Edited June 14, 2013 by Chabowski

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

Does the gun look weird when aiming down the sights to anyone else or just me? Maybe it's the resolution but it's just so skinny and minimalistic.

[dallas 5195]

If you think about it as going from one extreme to the other, this violent departure from ArmA2/DayZmod handling gives the devs the perfect opportunity to test the water and find a nice way to work one system towards the other.

And I reacted to this extreme and violent departure from ArmA. :)

You seem to be afraid of grenades? They are incredibly dangerous

I agree completely.

Best grenades, I've seen was in America's Army, where you could pull the pin, cook it and chose between over and under hand throws.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I've thought about it a lot recently.

There is without doubt a need to improve the "clunkiness" we have gotten used to with Arma. I love the slower more tactical style of gun-play in Arma as opposed to the twitch shooters such as COD, BF etc. but there are issues that need to be dealt with, mainly not being able to break the animation loop once triggered. It leads to far too many accidental deaths such as rolling off of a building when in reality you'd be able to stop yourself.

I believe in looking for this responsiveness they may have gone too far (as Rocket concedes). The player could be given the feeling if weight and momentum by not allowing such an immediate stop when running/walking ect. I believe this is well within their capabilities and by combining that with the abilty to break certain animations but not others a good balance could be struck.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Fraggle

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there

Id rather have an overly fluid avatar than the old Arma clunkatron even if it's not "real"

Yes, perfection would be nice, but of the two I'd prefer the new Dayz version.

That said, if a way to interrupt animations could be achieved (even if it looked rough) I would prefer that.

With a pistol in hand if I use my binocs I will swap to my main weapon then my binocs. Daft.

Im sure the dev team are fully aware of these issues as they've been plaguing us Arma veterans for years.

If the SA ships with *just* the existing avatar control, I'll be a happy bunny.

Rgds

LoK

[EduardBezer 11]

Maybe DayZ didn't only succeed despite of ArmA, maybe DayZ also succeeded because of ArmA.

You realise in a words my thoughts after watching e3 video!

Its exactly what i am thinking!

[-Gews- 7443]

I watched the E3 video, but I can't say what I'd prefer until I actually try it... all I can say is I hope the standalone stays true to ArmA's simulator roots.

I'll rage if it's been "dumbed down" in any way whatsoever.