3rd Party Interaction, and why it ruins the game

[ihaywirei 12]

Not a bad idea, but it's too easy to circumvent. I could easily have two microphones, one for teamspeak and one for ingame. Or just power up my xbox and get on an xbox live party chat.

Right. There is no possible way to stop people from communicating outside of the game. So banning the use of TS, Skype, etc will only cause an inconvenience to people who want to use these programs, but it will not stop them from finding a work around.

It would probably not go over well with the large majority of people playing DayZ and end up hurting the game more than helping.

If i had to use a 3rd party way to voice chat, not on my pc, i certainly wouldnt be communicating in game at all. And i would guess that many people would end up doing the same.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Right. There is no possible way to stop people from communicating outside of the game. So banning the use of TS, Skype, etc will only cause an inconvenience to people who want to use these programs, but it will not stop them from finding a work around.

It would probably not go over well with the large majority of people playing DayZ and end up hurting the game more than helping.

If i had to use a 3rd party way to voice chat, not on my pc, i certainly wouldnt be communicating in game at all. And i would guess that many people would end up doing the same.

Exactly, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. If you can't easily get on the same server as your friend, doesn't matter how much communication your can manage, you're not able to "cheat" at dayz.

[mmarionz 6]

OP has no mates

[TheAltGuardian 5]

Does anyone have a loaded gun I can borrow?

Talking is cheating guys, gg

[p4triot 207]

Exactly, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. If you can't easily get on the same server as your friend, doesn't matter how much communication your can manage, you're not able to "cheat" at dayz.

Why would I want to play on a different server than my friends? I read your topics about not allowing friends to find each other, but I think If tomorrow the city I live would collpase, odds are my family/friends (depending on who Im living with at the moment) and me wouldn't separate ever. So why is it so unrealistic to play with my friends? In fact, I don't remember the last time I played a game alone. Im only playing online games and only with friends.

Edited April 7, 2013 by p4triot

[-+BoSS+-Eran Mintor 5]

So... in cases like this 3rd party stuff, it's hard for you to see what is right or wrong because it's not specified in the terms of service?

Ok, here's another example then, people cite the radios being added as a reason to add side chat back in. But, why did Rocket remove it in the first place then?

If rocket wanted teamspeak to be the voice chat of dayz, it would be more clear. He has outlined his plans for the radios pretty clearly, he has emphasized how authenticity is an important part of the radios. Assuming teamspeak is a good place holder is assuming you know what Rocket wants in the game.

I never said to add side chat back. It's immersion breaking and annoying to read. What I am saying is that radios are not in game yet, and until they are (and even after they are implemented) 3rd party programs will be used and do not break anything in the game that isn't already broken/unfinished. TS has been used since the game began; the only thing changing is the player base with an increase in PvP-centric play.

When radios are added, it will be awesome. Why? Because it will allow you to broadcast globally to people outside of your group. It could open avenues for "newscasters" reporting on dangerous conditions around Chernarus, or allow people to request support, etc. But in the end, TS will always be used regardless of radios. It is not like scripting where you can change code to keep it out of the game.

Also it might be a good idea to stop pretending like you know what Rocket wants and how he feels about things unless of course you are him posting under a different name. I'm not assuming TS is a good place holder rather, with the options available, it is one of the only placeholders available.

If you want to play against people without TS or anything of the sort, form a community like was suggested and create a private hive server with a password. You will have to trust the people in your community are upholding your standards but the other option is that you suck it up and deal with things the way they are. Wasting time on barring 3rd party programs is not a good use of the dev's time. As has been stated, there's nothing stopping someone from calling his buddy in RL, or going to their house, or using a second computer to run voice programs if such a mechanism was implemented.

Regarding forum meta-gaming like the OP mentioned, it is a little silly. But seeing that communication is so limited and broken in DayZ, there is little that can replace until the SA comes out with features like notes and the like. 3rd party programs and external forums exist to fill these gaps.

cheating present participle of cheat (Verb)

Verb

• Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, esp. in a game or examination: "she cheats at cards".
  
• Deceive or trick.
  

Let's think about this definition. Is counting cards cheating? No, it's playing the game with knowledge and skill so you have a better chance to win.

Is having a few Ace's hidden up your sleeve cheating? Yes, it's dishonest and breaks the games rules.

Considering everyone has the option to use TS and forums, just like counting cards, I do not see either as cheating. Just like combat-logging back in the day wasn't cheating. Just because you disagree with a certain playstyle though, does not give you the right to dictate what playstyles are available to them. DayZ appeals to many different playstyles as I said, and that is why there are so many different servers with different difficulty settings and options like 3rd person. To limit that would be foolish and only hurt the game and the community.

Find a community that offers the environment you want to play in; stop trying to change the community to play like you.

[thederper121 95]

Applejacx, although I may disagree with you on some things, it's glad to see someone with an open mind.

[Hetstaine 10852]

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[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Hiding player list I would be agree. People tend to play different when the server is empty or full. But the server name? how I am supposed to diferentiate between all the +1927598175 vehicles crap servers and the real good ones?

This would be something more aimed at the standalone where we wont see those kinds of stupid settings. All servers with this difficulty would be setup in identical fashion. For the mod.. I'm not sure it would be popular since there wouldn't be starter gear, 24/7 daylight, and free Girlscout cookies.

I think the main drawback would be finding admins willing to connect their servers to this type of network since there wouldn't be a community to help support the server cost.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Why would I want to play on a different server than my friends? I read your topics about not allowing friends to find each other, but I think If tomorrow the city I live would collpase, odds are my family/friends (depending on who Im living with at the moment) and me wouldn't separate ever. So why is it so unrealistic to play with my friends? In fact, I don't remember the last time I played a game alone. Im only playing online games and only with friends.

Maybe you wouldn't, and I'm fine with that. You can continue to play on regular servers with groups.

It's not about making the most realistic experience possible, It's about putting everyone on the server into the same situation. If I'm not part of large group operating on teamspeak, I don't want to be forced to only join servers with groups. I want the option to join a server that prevents out-of-game grouping. I want to join a server where people can't have two or three characters to hop over to in case they get killed. Or clan mates ready to log on for backup. I want a server where dying means losing everything, a server where I can't just run back to a tent and load up again.

-snip-

Where did I say I wanted this to be the only way people play DayZ?

I can argue that the current system limits how I can play dayz. Why are you happily limiting my play style? If I want to be competitive, I'm forced to use teamspeak. That's limiting dayz to that playstyle.

Regarding the voice communications being limited and "broken", I have to disagree. I believe that the limitations of the voice communications make for a better game. Having no long distance communications makes for a better game than having a perfect teamspeak setup. Again, that's just my opinion & the reasoning behind my stance on these issues.

Edited April 7, 2013 by bad_mojo

[-+BoSS+-Eran Mintor 5]

You're not limited at all from doing what you say. This whole time I've been saying create a private server/community that offers the environment you want to play in. The current system doesn't limit you from doing what you want.

Being competitive doesn't mean that you have to play the same as your opponent. Being competitive has nothing to do with 3rd party programs or having groups of equal numbers or gear. Competitive play is a matter of wits and skill and the only thing that could limit you from being competitive would be yourself.

[Rage VG 4033]

So... in cases like this 3rd party stuff, it's hard for you to see what is right or wrong because it's not specified in the terms of service?

Ok, here's another example then, people cite the radios being added as a reason to add side chat back in. But, why did Rocket remove it in the first place then?

If rocket wanted teamspeak to be the voice chat of dayz, it would be more clear. He has outlined his plans for the radios pretty clearly, he has emphasized how authenticity is an important part of the radios. Assuming teamspeak is a good place holder is assuming you know what Rocket wants in the game.

Rocket removed it because he has the right to do that with his mod. It is his creation and it is up to him what features are in and what features aren't.

He does not, however, have the right to dictate what goes on on my computer outside of the game.

You say I cannot tell right from wrong unless stated in the ToS, but the truth here is that you are under the assumption that it is globally accepted to be wrong to use it, and that I'm speaking out against it.

That is not the case, and this is the fact; The majority vote is that it's fine, for one reason or another. Before you build your argument around it being cheating, you need to convince the majority that it is cheating. Otherwise, you don't make any sense.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

You're not limited at all from doing what you say. This whole time I've been saying create a private server/community that offers the environment you want to play in. The current system doesn't limit you from doing what you want.

Being competitive doesn't mean that you have to play the same as your opponent. Being competitive has nothing to do with 3rd party programs or having groups of equal numbers or gear. Competitive play is a matter of wits and skill and the only thing that could limit you from being competitive would be yourself.

It does limit us though. It limits a community to rely on the honor system. We have to rely on the word of others to not use 3rd party tactics.

How does it come down to wits and skill when a friend and I are running along talking on direct chat and then we get shot in the back by a group who could hear us but we couldn't hear them because they weren't using direct chat?

I play just fine in the current situation. I'm not really complaining that it's a grave unjustice that I have to play with groups. It's the situation of DayZ, if I want to play DayZ, I play on a server with groups. But, when people try to pull the "DON'T PUNISH MY STYLE" whenever someone suggests something like this, I roll my eyes because that argument can go both ways. If you prefer one play style, your punishing the other. It's silly and the discussion goes nowhere.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Rocket removed it because he has the right to do that with his mod. It is his creation and it is up to him what features are in and what features aren't.

He does not, however, have the right to dictate what goes on on my computer outside of the game.

You say I cannot tell right from wrong unless stated in the ToS, but the truth here is that you are under the assumption that it is globally accepted to be wrong to use it, and that I'm speaking out against it.

That is not the case, and this is the fact; The majority vote is that it's fine, for one reason or another. Before you build your argument around it being cheating, you need to convince the majority that it is cheating. Otherwise, you don't make any sense.

Okay. But what about the suggestion that another difficulty setting be added which hides server names and player lists? That wouldn't invade on your personal computer, you would still be able to chat it up with friends while playing DayZ, you would just have a much harder time getting into the same server.

I don't really care what the majority of people consider cheating or not cheating, or how people define the term cheating. I'm more interested in what changes would improve DayZ.

[applejaxc 2500]

He's saying that mentioning realism isn't allowed because respawning exists in this game. If everything isn't 100% realistic, then nothing has to be. It's a silly notion, I'm surprised it's used so much on these forums. Is that a private server? It sounds great.

No, he's saying realism isn't as important as convenience, or not invading the rights of players to please a minority of people. Very few players see 3rd party programs as cheating. The majority of players want it in, not just to take advantage of it, but because you have no right to stop them. Updating the TOS for ARMA II just because people are whining about a legitimate "meta-tactic" people are doing on a mod is beyond stupid, no matter how big the mod is.

I don't consider it a tactic, and I'm not saying A2 needs to change their TOS. A2 has WAY too much respect for its community to change its terms of service without a Hell-on-earth Jesus-reincarnate Godzilla-attack level reason. I'm saying that when the alpha is launched for SA, there TS3 ought to be brow beat off the forums and off the community's collective PC.

[-+BoSS+-Eran Mintor 5]

It does limit us though. It limits a community to rely on the honor system. We have to rely on the word of others to not use 3rd party tactics.

How does it come down to wits and skill when a friend and I are running along talking on direct chat and then we get shot in the back by a group who could hear us but we couldn't hear them because they weren't using direct chat?

I play just fine in the current situation. I'm not really complaining that it's a grave unjustice that I have to play with groups. It's the situation of DayZ, if I want to play DayZ, I play on a server with groups. But, when people try to pull the "DON'T PUNISH MY STYLE" whenever someone suggests something like this, I roll my eyes because that argument can go both ways. If you prefer one play style, your punishing the other. It's silly and the discussion goes nowhere.

Don't you already have to rely on the honor system whenever you interact with other players? If you and a friend are running around and get shot in the back whether or not someone heard you on direct chat, you died because one of you wasn't watching your six, not because of some unfair advantage. For all you know it was a solo sniper who killed you and not a group on TS. Or maybe your friend shot you in the back while you took point. Wit and skill is always involved whether you see it or not. Running in the open is a bad choice; running crouched between bushes will conceal you so that even if someone hears you nearby, they will not be able to locate your position.

There are many options available to you as to how you can play DayZ. Prefering one playstyle doesn't punish the others; I'm not sure why you think that is so.

If you prefer to be on a server where everyone plays a certain playstyle (no TS, etc.) then you can do so if you form a sub-community within the larger DayZ community and start a private hive. Hell, I might even join it. However I don't understand why you need to change anything in the game to do so.

[Rage VG 4033]

and I'm not saying A2 needs to change their TOS.

TS3 is a third party program. That's even worse than abusing the game. The TOS need to be changed, and TS3/Skype/et cetera needs to be stomped out.

Okay. But what about the suggestion that another difficulty setting be added which hides server names and player lists? That wouldn't invade on your personal computer, you would still be able to chat it up with friends while playing DayZ, you would just have a much harder time getting into the same server.

I already said that would be a decent idea, as long as there are still servers which you can tell the names of. Not just for the sake of people who do want to speak to their friends on the same server (I'm not one of them), but for the people who just want a consistent community or reliable server. If they do this, I feel it should be more or less every public hive server, so that your gear really is universal.

I don't really care what the majority of people consider cheating or not cheating, or how people define the term cheating. I'm more interested in what changes would improve DayZ.

"I don't care for the opinions of others, I only care about what I think would make the game better."

Once again, you're assuming that people would enjoy DayZ more if this happened, when clearly people think the opposite.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Rage VG

[applejaxc 2500]

Okay. But what about the suggestion that another difficulty setting be added which hides server names and player lists? That wouldn't invade on your personal computer, you would still be able to chat it up with friends while playing DayZ, you would just have a much harder time getting into the same server.

I don't really care what the majority of people consider cheating or not cheating, or how people define the term cheating. I'm more interested in what changes would improve DayZ.

One change being that these 3rd party metagame cheats be disallowed. Just saying.

But yes, whoever originally posted the idea for "Blind servers" is genius. You don't know if you're alone or not.

I think that game-wide, every chat function but direct should be removed (it doesn't make sense to have any of them), with the exception of radio-chat. All "...has been killed" messages should be removed. You shouldn't be able to look at a city and go, "Look, a zombie. There's a player in the firestation." No, you shouldn't know you're in trouble until you're balls deep... or upper-thighs deep if you're a woman.

[p4triot 207]

One change being that these 3rd party metagame cheats be disallowed. Just saying.

But yes, whoever originally posted the idea for "Blind servers" is genius. You don't know if you're alone or not.

I think that game-wide, every chat function but direct should be removed (it doesn't make sense to have any of them), with the exception of radio-chat. All "...has been killed" messages should be removed. You shouldn't be able to look at a city and go, "Look, a zombie. There's a player in the firestation." No, you shouldn't know you're in trouble until you're balls deep... or upper-thighs deep if you're a woman.

Agree. Death messages should be removed, kill count should be removed (so people doesn't shot a survivor until the death message appear or the kill count increases), you shouldn't be able to spot people because of zombies (well, not so true... if there's someone there's also a chance zombies are chasing him) but at least won't be that easy as it is now like 1.5km before arriving a town you already know if there's someone just because you see zombies. However, they already got this fixed in the SA :P

As for the 3rd party software. I use to play with friends. When we play L4D we use the ingame VOIP system, same for Aliens Colonial Marines, Killing Floor, Arma ACRE and so on. But Day Z has no support for groups, and no, as much as I like realism, this is the only line I won't cross on this videogame. Playing with my friends is a must. In fact, is the only reason I play.

Edited April 7, 2013 by p4triot

[applejaxc 2500]

Applejacx, although I may disagree with you on some things, it's glad to see someone with an open mind.

:)

This would be something more aimed at the standalone where we wont see those kinds of stupid settings. All servers with this difficulty would be setup in identical fashion. For the mod.. I'm not sure it would be popular since there wouldn't be starter gear, 24/7 daylight, and free Girlscout cookies.

I think the main drawback would be finding admins willing to connect their servers to this type of network since there wouldn't be a community to help support the server cost.

I love all your posts. And that's what I've been saying since the day Private Hive servers went big; you can't tell the good ones from the bad ones, and no one wants to play in the good ones so the good ones can't afford to run and are shut down.

You're not limited at all from doing what you say. This whole time I've been saying create a private server/community that offers the environment you want to play in. The current system doesn't limit you from doing what you want.

Being competitive doesn't mean that you have to play the same as your opponent. Being competitive has nothing to do with 3rd party programs or having groups of equal numbers or gear. Competitive play is a matter of wits and skill and the only thing that could limit you from being competitive would be yourself.

There is no skill in using 3rd party programs, you daft noob!

[applejaxc 2500]

Agree. Death messages should be removed, kill count should be removed (so people doesn't shot a survivor until the death message appear or the kill count increases), you shouldn't be able to spot people because of zombies (well, not so true... if there's someone there's also a chance zombies are chasing him) but at least won't be that easy as it is now like 1.5km before arriving a town you already know if there's someone just because you see zombies. However, they already got this fixed in the SA :P

As for the 3rd party software. I use to play with friends. When we play L4D we use the ingame VOIP system, same for Aliens Colonial Marines, Killing Floor, Arma ACRE and so on. But Day Z has no support for groups, and no, as much as I like realism, this is the only line I won't cross on this videogame. Playing with my friends is a must. In fact, is the only reason I play.

When you're playing L4D, you are playing a cooperative arcade shooter. When you're playing ACM... you've wasted money, but regardless, it's a cooperative game. Killing Floor? Wave survival, another coop game. Those games already provide the means to communicate. Those games don't have a reason to disallow it.

But don't you dare use those games to justify VOIP programs for DayZ; DayZ is not those games, is not played like those games, and is not about senseless killing. It is a game about survival, and the friendship bonds you form while surviving, not calling your friends and being douchebags via VOIP programs.

[Inception. 9443]

He's saying that mentioning realism isn't allowed because respawning exists in this game. If everything isn't 100% realistic, then nothing has to be. It's a silly notion, I'm surprised it's used so much on these forums.

I'm saying that if he wants the ultra-hardcore-super realistic Zombie Apocalypse simulator DayZ game, then respawning should not be included. Because that's not realistic, of course.

I'm not saying that just because one thing isn't realistic then nothing has to be.

As well as what Rage said, is what I'm saying.

No, he's saying realism isn't as important as convenience, or not invading the rights of players to please a minority of people. Very few players see 3rd party programs as cheating. The majority of players want it in, not just to take advantage of it, but because you have no right to stop them. Updating the TOS for ARMA II just because people are whining about a legitimate "meta-tactic" people are doing on a mod is beyond stupid, no matter how big the mod is.

There is no skill in using 3rd party programs, you daft noob!

Precisely. The two players that can take down a squad without using an 3rd party communication programs is superior to the two players that took down the squad whilst using 3rd party programs.

Anyway, overall, I'm still going to use Teamspeak while playing with friends/whoever because it's more convenient. Most players do it, so I don't really see a point in disadvantaging myself at this point in time, nor will my act of not using 3rd party programs really affect anything.

But, I would still love for there to be servers that do not allow Teamspeak and such. I like your ideas, Applejaxc, but not when they are applied to the global server population. Only specific servers would I like to be enabled upon. There are times where I want to feel really immersed, and there are times where I want to just have some ridiculous fun within DayZ.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Inception.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

I'm saying that if he wants the ultra-hardcore-super realistic Zombie Apocalypse simulator DayZ game, then respawning should not be included. Because that's not realistic, of course.

I'm not saying that just because one thing isn't realistic then nothing has to be.

As well as what Rage said, is what I'm saying.

That is implying he can't have no third party bullshit in DayZ without also turning it into an "ultra-hardcore-super realistic Zombie Apocalypse simulator DayZ game". If we want one thing based on realism, we have to make everything ultra realistic.

"Let's add X to the game, it's realistic!"

"No if we add X we have to remove Y, Z, W, etc for being unrealistic, then the game would suck!"

"Why not just add X and worry about the rest as we go?"

"Because you want it all super hardcore impossible realistic mode"

Why even change the subject to spawning when someone mentions realism applying to voice communications? Just to piss people like me off?

[Pandema 352]

Oh god not this thread again. Heil Applejaxc.

Apple, we get it. You don't like 3rd Party VoIP. Enough already, stop trying to shove your playstyle down everyone's throats. We don't care if you want this to be an Ub3R Hardcore Zombie Survival Sim, it's a freaking game we're playing it to have fun. We're not breaking any rules stated in the TOS, we're not duping AS50s and their mags, we're not nuking entire servers, we're using Skype/Vent/Steam/TS3/Raidcall/InsertVoIPHere to talk to friends and have fun while we play which hurts absolutely NO ONE.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Pandema

[TheDesigner 1197]

OH MY GOD ANOTHER ONE OF THESE GODDAMN THREADS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH

Look, I understand that you want to enjoy the game to its utmost, but that doesn't give you the right to go all Führer on us and tell us what we can and can't do. If we want to ruin the game for ourselves by skipping out on the fun (exploring for our own gear) or destroy the immersion for ourselves (Using teamspeak), we have every right to do that, because we are not restricted by the TOS. It is not your place to tell us how we should play and what we should do, because it is not up to you, it is up to the rules of the game, and none of those are broken by using TS or the forums.

There are dozens of players who only want to player super hard-on immersion style, why not just gather these players and populate a server, or even host your own? You get your perfect game, and you don't have to rage on the forums.

Finally, it ruins the game my ass. You are acting like it is literally unplayable because you can't hear what people are saying, or people are actually co-operating. This is the same train of thought those selfish game corporations have towards used games; "We are losing so much money(fun) because of people selling used games (Using teamspeak)!"

No. You are not losing out on anything, you're just not gaining there, because you haven't stuck your hand in that cookie jar to stop everyone else taking some.

This is one cookie jar you can't stick your hand in.

More like,

NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN! PLAY DAYZ AS I DO OR IT'S WRONG!

Seriously though, Rage hit the nail on the head. You are saying the way you play is the only one.