Change Weapon Damage for StandAlone

[sol 9]

Hello, I think it would be a good idea if the damage guns do in the Standalone version of dayz would be changed to be more realistic. All the guns used to be very good until an ArmA update a while back, which made plenty of them terrible.

I.e, I shouldn't be able to shoot someone 12 times with a Makarov and have them not die; it's just not realistic. And basically all of the sidearms suffer from this, as well as many primary weapons. The 5.56mm and 5.45mm guns are terrible when compared with guns like the FAL or AKM, just because the FAL or AKM are actually able to put an enemy down witih some speed, whereas it will take many shots with an M4 or AK-74. I think it would be more appropriate to have most guns be able to kill in 2-4 hits, maximum.

[sol 9]

And I think the damage for some guns is fine - I think the FAL does enough, and maybe the AKM should do a little more, but not much. The Enfield should certainly be up close to the FAL.

[CreepySalad 108]

I would prefer realistic gun damage as well.

One shot with any gun in the right place would be fine.

Yeah.

[Clumzy (DayZ) 377]

I would prefer realistic gun damage as well.

One shot with any gun in the right place would be fine.

Yeah.

That.

Of course, I think hitpoints should be done away with, so now you just have a lethal or a non-lethal injury. That way, you can't kill someone by shooting them in the foot ten times, but a shot to the heart will almost definitely kill you. And shots to the torso will do some serious damage and kill you if you don't get fixed up.

[Ruski 10]

zombie health would have to be buffed to compensate for higher gun damage...more body shots to kill zombie[but only one headshot]...(zombies don't feel pain, they keep going until they are dead)

P.S. i support de-nerfing guns in dayz

[-Gews- 7443]

Another issue with weapon damage - how do we know what values to plug in? How much more effective is a 7.62 than a 5.56? In real life, I haven't shot a bunch of people with both calibers trying to compare them. We have to go largely on gut feeling when talking about stopping power. We can draw on hunting experience and numerous tales from Army vets going back to the First World War, but opinions on "stopping power" are mostly that - opinions.

Another problem is the issue of certain weapons always knocking people out / always killing / always not killing until 3 hits, etc. Make it more random, devs. Introduce some kind of percent chance system or whatever.

[m.w. vindicator 880]

This has come up numerous times.

Hear are some links that might help.

Go to page 2 of this thread.

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/125207-weapon-damage-general-discussion/

There was another thread called something like "replace AS50 and M107 with less effective Russian Equivalent" that talked about gun damage. I have already stated my opinion in each of those thread..

I agree OP, guns should be simulated more realistically.

[UmBe 125]

How much more effective is a 7.62 than a 5.56?

The Problem is, that many People believe, that only because a Bullet is bigger and stronger it is deadlier.

But, according to some sniperdocu I once watched, The 7.62x51 does Not do much damage to a Human at close Range, The Target has to be 400 Meters away for The bullet to unfold its Full potential.

If The target it to close The bullet will just fly through, with Minor tissue damage.

The devs should get some bullet/guntype expert to sort this Out ^^

Edited March 7, 2013 by UmBe

[declan223@gmail.com 271]

You could get shot 12 times with a makarov and survive; it depends on where the shots lands. I think a damage system, like that of the original Deus Ex, albeit more complex, could implemented into DayZ.

[sol 9]

You could get shot 12 times with a makarov and survive; it depends on where the shots lands. I think a damage system, like that of the original Deus Ex, albeit more complex, could implemented into DayZ.

I agree.

I think Rocket and his team plan to incorporate a new damage system along with the health system, as we can see from the motorcycle helmet in the newest devblog - they planned to make it reduce blunt damage received or something like that. Certainly you could be shot 12 times and survive, if it was in the foot or something - but not 12 times in the upper back, chest, and abdomen haha. I do have very high hopes for this game, it sounds like its going to be totally unique in almost every way.

The Problem is, that many People believe, that only because a Bullet is bigger and stronger it is deadlier.

But, according to some sniperdocu I once watched, The 7.62x51 does Not do much damage to a Human at close Range, The Target has to be 400 Meters away for The bullet to unfold its Full potential.

If The target it to close The bullet will just fly through, with Minor tissue damage.

The devs should get some bullet/guntype expert to sort this Out ^^

I like this idea, I think it would add an important element to realism if the developers consulted a ballistics expert. I'm not sure about gun laws in the Czech Republic (or the team's budget lol) but maybe they could get the guns themselves and some ballistics gel or something. That way they could test all the different effects they wanted.

zombie health would have to be buffed to compensate for higher gun damage...more body shots to kill zombie[but only one headshot]...(zombies don't feel pain, they keep going until they are dead)

P.S. i support de-nerfing guns in dayz

Yeah, I guess that all depends on how Rocket and his team decides their zombies should work - does their circulatory system function? How does their nervous system work? What keeps them from rotting and being eaten by scavengers? Etc.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Troll_Force_One

[jona (DayZ) 61]

I do agree and find the weapons lacking in power especially in hand guns and shotguns. The worst case being a 12ga slug wich ive heard people use for killing bears in 1 shot lol. I believe the 12ga slug is still a 2 hit kill on a zombie at close range in dayz. They need to make the bullets more realstic in damege and affect like high caliber rifles like an as50 should collateral damege through players and zombies due to it being a 1 hit kill and a huge round. Shotguns need to be force not to be reckoned with at 100 yards tops as they are in real life and dayz haveing such a huge map. Stuff like the cross bow should be really placement of the shot if you hit a guy in the chest up he aint breathing so hes dead in a matter of seconds.

[Charb 298]

That.

Of course, I think hitpoints should be done away with, so now you just have a lethal or a non-lethal injury. That way, you can't kill someone by shooting them in the foot ten times, but a shot to the heart will almost definitely kill you. And shots to the torso will do some serious damage and kill you if you don't get fixed up.

as that initially sounds like a good idea. That doesn't explain how you will take damage by zombies. More importantly our HP system is directly tied to the visibility ingame. I'd hate for that colorless black and white visibility to go away when you are on the verge of death. That really got your heart pumping when you where in the worst situation ever.

[enforcer1975 1111]

"stopping power"

If they want stopping power they should get a bat.

[Wiesn69 4]

DAYZ is a Game about surviving in a Zombie-Scenario. The Whole Weapon Performance Discussion is basicly a PVP aspect. If ya want Weapons to "BE" realistic , most of them would be one-hitters. The Question is , HOW MUCH REALISM CAN A GAME HANDLE , TO BE STILL ENJOYABLE ?! ...

In my Opinion it should be harder to kill People to ensure a pleasent gaming experience, and not end up in a big noobish camp fest !

ps: Zombies (pve targets) should only be "dead" after a headshot "killed" them , if not ....they just get up after some seconds ^^

Edited March 10, 2013 by Wiesn69

[BSB Jimmy 360]

i agree with the lethal and non lethal shots. 10 foot hits should not kill someone.

[Clumzy (DayZ) 377]

as that initially sounds like a good idea. That doesn't explain how you will take damage by zombies. More importantly our HP system is directly tied to the visibility ingame. I'd hate for that colorless black and white visibility to go away when you are on the verge of death. That really got your heart pumping when you where in the worst situation ever.

Well, I never tried to explain how zombie damage would work. Why would I, in a topic about gun damages? But I think it would basically work the same way. You could die from getting your throat ripped out, or getting completely devoured, or from blood loss. Getting punched in the leg by a zombie a bunch wouldn't kill you. And just because the black and white screen is tied to the current system, doesn't mean it would have to go if the health system was changed.

DAYZ is a Game about surviving in a Zombie-Scenario. The Whole Weapon Performance Discussion is basicly a PVP aspect. If ya want Weapons to "BE" realistic , most of them would be one-hitters.

A lot of people on this forum would disagree with you... From what I've seen, one hit insta-kills are pretty rare. Sure, there's mortal wounds, but you're probably not going to die immediately. And even then, you probably won't kill someone with a single bullet. Round like the 5.56 are made to wound, and there have been a bunch of stories about how guns aren't as lethal as some people think. Nevertheless, a bullet anywhere should severely ruin your character's day. As for the lethality of guns arguments, I'd rather leave that to someone more knowledgeable about the topic.

[m.w. vindicator 880]

i agree with the lethal and non lethal shots. 10 foot hits should not kill someone.

I agree. Unless your getting hit by a 12.7x99 NATO (.50 cal) a shot to the foot wouldn't be lethal. You would get knocked over and your foot would be mangled to hell, but you could live, if the bleeding is stopped.

Stopping bleeding shouldn't be as simple apply a single bandage. The process should be difficult, like IRL.

Chest shots would most likely be lethal without armor. Full size Rifle bullets to the chest (like 7.62x51mm, .30-06, .303, 7.62x54mmR )would almost always be lethal unless your character is wearing power armor like Master Chief.

Assault Rifle bullets would be SLIGHTLY less lethal. 5.56x45, 5.45x39, and 7.62x39 would cause anyone serious issues if you got hit. A shot in the leg by a intermediate caliber might not be instantly lethal, but without serious attention, I doubt many people could survive more than a half an hour. External and Internal bleeding, a bullet stuck in your body, terrible pain, and broken bones. All these would leave someone crippled.

Pistol rounds would still be extremely dangerous. Surviving a bullet would be possible, but you would have a really hard time living.

A person with a gun should have a ton of power and unarmed people and those with melee weapons would be in serious trouble.

:murder: + :lol: :beans:

=

:murder: :beans: + :(

Edited March 11, 2013 by Vindicator

[applejaxc 2500]

Another issue with weapon damage - how do we know what values to plug in? How much more effective is a 7.62 than a 5.56? In real life, I haven't shot a bunch of people with both calibers trying to compare them. We have to go largely on gut feeling when talking about stopping power. We can draw on hunting experience and numerous tales from Army vets going back to the First World War, but opinions on "stopping power" are mostly that - opinions.

Another problem is the issue of certain weapons always knocking people out / always killing / always not killing until 3 hits, etc. Make it more random, devs. Introduce some kind of percent chance system or whatever.

I do have a lot of firearms experience, if I may say so myself...

Shotgun pellets should kill if >40% hits the target (so a target up to 15 feet?); buckshot literally turns you to hamburger.

Shotgun slugs should kill in 1-3 hits, break the legs in 1 hit. 12 gauge slugs, for comparison, are like firing 7.62 ammunition, albeit 7.62 that is inaccurate and a giant bore. The issue with slugs is a lot like the issue with AP ammunition vs soft targets: Any bullet that travels through a target, contrary to popular belief, is wasted energy; a bullet does much more damage if it remains in its target. A shotgun slug leaves a nasty hole and breaks bones, but it has very straight-forward momentum; the damage is limited to the impact area.

5.56 and 7.62 ammunition is very different.

The 5.56 "NATO" is used by NATO because it is accurate, light, and cheap. It will kill a man with 2-3 shots to the chest without hitting the heart. A 5.56 would put down a medium-large stag (man deer) in 5 bullets or less.

The 7.62 is a heavier, louder bullet that can achieve a greater range, but the recoil is much stronger-thus Russia has stopped using the AK line and started using "New age" rifles like the AN94. A 7.62 could take down a stag in 2-3 bullets. I'd personally trust a 7.62 to fight a mother bear protecting her cubs, if I had a rifle that mitigated recoil well.

The FN FAL and FN FAC (by Fabrique National) are almost as widespread as the AK47. Contrary to popular belief, again, the AK47 is actually a giant piece of crap. The Fal is cheap and weighs a little less than 10 pounds. The 7.62 cartridges would stop a man with a "Double tap" to the chest.

In fact, the Fal/7.62 is so good, that American companies produced several 7.62 caliber weapons before the 5.56NATO was adopted. Britain took the Fal and turned it into the Fal OSW, a "More modern," lighter, and more accurate version of the Fal that could be converted for automatic fire.

The Fal OSW is good enough that I'd use it against a charging hog... and if you don't know how many bullets it takes to kill a hog, you should move to the American south; the crazy bastards can take a full cylinder of .44 magnum to the head and keep breathing.

Bullets in the stomach are wasted bullets; the stomach isn't shot when you want to kill someone. You shoot someone in the stomach so they'll go home and say, "Mom, Dad, I can't eat solid foods for 3 months," so Mom and Dad go to the recruiting office and protest to end the war so the other country can win and Susie doesn't also get shot in the stomach.

All of the assault rifles in DayZ shoot 5.56 or 7.62, right? So every weapon in DayZ should kill 2-5 shots to the chest, 1-2 in the head/neck, 3-7 in the stomach, and break the legs in 2-5.

Now to talk about pistols...

THE 9mm PARRABELLUM IS NOT THE GREATEST THING SINCE TOAST! I wouldn't trust a 9mm gun with my life. A 9mm does not have the stopping power to kill someone. You all remember the "Zombie" in Miami that ate a homeless guy's face? He took 4 9mm rounds and didn't flinch. "Bathsalts" don't have any kind of painkiller in them (Unless you use the PCP vers... I told my parole officer I wouldn't think about faces or drugs anymore... *sigh*). I don't like 9mm weapons. I wouldn't want to be shot by one, but I'd be less scared of one than a .45.

Thus, the G17 and the M9 are reasonably weak. That doesn't bother me.

The Makarov on the other hand... I believe it fires 5.45xSomething but I don't know that for a fact, so don't quote me on it. The 5.45 has more recoil than "Mainstream" ammunition, but it's good enough for the Russians to use it.

Let me clarify something: Russians, before "Russia" became "Russia" instead of "The USSR" did not have a battle doctrine that cared about accuracy; damage was their main concern because most of the city engagements they expected (just think about the battles in WW2 vs Germany) happened in cities, so guns didn't need to be accurate past 30 feet. The Makarov, then, I think has its own problems and should go cry in a corner for giving me false hope in the face of zombie hordes.

Now about silenced weapons...

3 parts of a gun make noise:

The bullet, the action, and the gas.

The bullet had a "Bang" when it ignites. The crack of a weapon is the sound of a bullet going supersonic. In order to defeat that bang, the gun must fire "Cold loaded" ammunition. Cold loads have only half the normal amount of gunpowder, which halves their range and stopping power, just about.

The action (the hammer hitting the bullet, the bolt being slid back/forward) is rarely silenced; eliminating "Mechanical noise" is nearly impossible.

The gasses created in the ignition of a bullet make a lot of noise when they leave a gun. Suppressors help the expanding gasses slow down before exiting the barrel and "Threaded" barrels (barrels with holes in them) help bleed out the gas before the giant mass escapes.

So what happens to a suppressed bullet?

There is less gas driving it because there is a smaller explosion. The smaller explosion is nerfed again because the gasses push it much more slowly.

Suppressed weapons at medium-long ranges aren't very good. I think the new nerfed M4A1 SD is pretty realistic.

[JustPassingBy 7]

The 7.62 is a heavier, louder bullet that can achieve a greater range, but the recoil is much stronger-thus Russia has stopped using the AK line and started using "New age" rifles like the AN94. A 7.62 could take down a stag in 2-3 bullets. I'd personally trust a 7.62 to fight a mother bear protecting her cubs, if I had a rifle that mitigated recoil well.

The FN FAL and FN FAC (by Fabrique National) are almost as widespread as the AK47. Contrary to popular belief, again, the AK47 is actually a giant piece of crap.

A little correction:

Russia hasn't stopped using the AK line. AK47 is not used in military since 1974. Regular military units are training with AK74 and modern 10x series designed in 1990s. AN-94 is less reliable than AK-74 due to its complex design that's why it's in limited use.

AK74 and newer uses 5.45x39 bullets. AK-107/108 is equipped with a recoil-balancing mechanism (same that AEK-971 has) to compensate the impulse of the gas piston and bolt carrier.

And a little more about pistols:

When I served our instructors taught us that a handgun is a last defence line of the soldier. That's why pistols must have strong stopping power but not the killing power.

[applejaxc 2500]

A little correction:

Russia hasn't stopped using the AK line. AK47 is not used in military since 1974. Regular military units are training with AK74 and modern 10x series designed in 1990s. AN-94 is less reliable than AK-74 due to its complex design that's why it's in limited use.

AK74 and newer uses 5.45x39 bullets. AK-107/108 is equipped with a recoil-balancing mechanism (same that AEK-971 has) to compensate the impulse of the gas piston and bolt carrier.

And a little more about pistols:

When I served our instructors taught us that a handgun is a last defence line of the soldier. That's why pistols must have strong stopping power but not the killing power.

The AK107 has an operation system that shoots one piston forward to fire while shooting another piston towards the shooter to focus recoil to just in front of the handle, rigiht?

[JustPassingBy 7]

The AK107 has an operation system that shoots one piston forward to fire while shooting another piston towards the shooter to focus recoil to just in front of the handle, rigiht?

in general words - yes

[sol 9]

Weapons that fire 9x19 parabellum and 9x18 makarov ought to get more credit than they're given; they're still lethal rounds and are meant to kill people - getting hit in the chest by one is still going to ruin your day, particularly if it hits a vital organ. Same for lower caliber rifle rounds, though they are more likely to go straight through and do less damage. If you are hit by a 12ga slug, you are going to be on the ground.

Contrary to popular belief, again, the AK47 is actually a giant piece of crap.

Certainly the model 1947 AK isn't very good when compared with modern guns, but the AKM is a step ahead of the AK-47, especially when fitted with a good muzzle brake. You have a good chance to die if you are hit with it in a vital area, as with any other gun. 7.62x39 is different from the 5.45x39 and 5.56x45mm cartridges, but it is ballistically comparable to .30-30, a commonly used hunting round.

Another point:

if we were to use hollow point ammunition instead of FMJ, things would change all over again. The military doesn't use hollow points, but plenty of soldiers carve notches into their FMJ ammo so it will fragment upon impact. And there's nothing stopping a civilian from sticking hollow points intheir AK-47 magazines. I think it would be cool if hollow points were introduced into the standalone.

[sol 9]

in general words - yes

clever russkies.

[applejaxc 2500]

Weapons that fire 9x19 parabellum and 9x18 makarov ought to get more credit than they're given; they're still lethal rounds and are meant to kill people - getting hit in the chest by one is still going to ruin your day, particularly if it hits a vital organ. Same for lower caliber rifle rounds, though they are more likely to go straight through and do less damage. If you are hit by a 12ga slug, you are going to be on the ground.

Certainly the model 1947 AK isn't very good when compared with modern guns, but the AKM is a step ahead of the AK-47, especially when fitted with a good muzzle brake. You have a good chance to die if you are hit with it in a vital area, as with any other gun. 7.62x39 is different from the 5.45x39 and 5.56x45mm cartridges, but it is ballistically comparable to .30-30, a commonly used hunting round.

Another point:

if we were to use hollow point ammunition instead of FMJ, things would change all over again. The military doesn't use hollow points, but plenty of soldiers carve notches into their FMJ ammo so it will fragment upon impact. And there's nothing stopping a civilian from sticking hollow points intheir AK-47 magazines. I think it would be cool if hollow points were introduced into the standalone.

Hollow points are illegal for civilians in the US I believe because they turn "Normal" bullets into more lethal rounds.

What I REALLY want to see is "CherryPis" (Cherry Pies); they're basically a tiny explosive ignited on impact designed for the OICW. They got scrapped when the OICW was, though I think the penetration + explosion would be perfect against zombie heads.

[applejaxc 2500]

in general words - yes

I really appreciate the picture, man; I haven't found a good way to explain it before.

And I guess I'm wrong... I thought the reversing piston was placed slightly forward/down. Now that I think about it, MY version of the AK107 is really dumb. :)