Crash course on the 1.7.3 Combat System (by the person who wrote it)

[WalkerDown (DayZ) 296]

@ WalkerDown

You have made your point.

If the system is found to be inadequate it will be removed or modified.

Deal with it.

I'm worried that with the biblic times we see the patches here, we'll need to live with it for several weeks before it will be removed.

That's the only reason of why im posting... so again: good luck. :)

[boneboys 7988]

You are more than Posting you are Spamming this and other Topics with your anti Alt+ F4 fears...

You have your own Alt+F4 Topic, I suggest you stay there.

[WalkerDown (DayZ) 296]

You are more than Posting you are Spamming this and other Topics with your anti Alt+ F4 fears...

You should review your kwnowledge about the "spam" term before accusing me of "spamming".

You have your own Alt+F4 Topic, I suggest you stay there.

I've opened that thread before this even existed, so i'm replying here now coz hit has been opened by the (supposed) developer of the "combat thing...".

Thanks for your suggestion, i post where i feel confortable to post, respecting the forum rules.

[dallas 5195]

Much has been said and more has been repeated, let's check it out before we dismiss it.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

You should review your kwnowledge about the "spam" term before accusing me of "spamming".

I've opened that thread before this even existed, so i'm replying here now coz hit has been opened by the (supposed) developer of the "combat thing...".

Thanks for your suggestion, i post where i feel confortable to post, respecting the forum rules.

Walker AKA Nostradamus. I think Venthos has answered your questions as best he can given the circumstances. Like every new game mechanic introduced to the mod only time will tell. You seem more concerned about scoring points for a correct prediction than actually dealing with the issue at hand. For all of your negative posts I've yet to see you offer up anything better.

I predict that the people that are going to hate the system are a) combat loggers ( I expect to see many QQ threads from these guy's B) ) and b ) people who play on servers with crap admins that are unable to manage their own community. As I've already stated, if you play on a server with a crap admin, no game mechanic in the world is going to help you.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Fraggle

[Inception. 9443]

This proves that you have no skill at all to handle all of this.. why? Coz you cannot distnguish a moaning bitch, from an user (me) that is explaining what's wrong with your thinking and why this is going to affect the "average" user.

I'm NOT the average user, i will the one that WILL EXPLOIT this system taking advantage of it (so it is GOOD FOR ME). Then why i'm against it? It's because i have enough brain to understand that my personal advantage may break the game and so i won't have fun anymore: no players = no kills / more cheaters = less fun.

You have tested this system on a single server, you didn't have faced the reality of this mod.. people are going to server hop to abuse of it, other idiots are going to troll, and you don't even have to wait the first cheater to figure why this system won't works.

But again.. you need to face the reality, and then you'll come back here on the forum (if you have a face) to say: well.. you were right.

Good luck.

>an

wut

[Inception. 9443]

I predict that the people that are going to hate the system are a) combat loggers ( I expect to see many QQ threads from these guy's B) ) and b ) people who play on servers with crap admins that are unable to manage their own community. As I've already stated, if you play on a server with a crap admin, no game mechanic in the world is going to help you.

Well...

1. My internet cuts out. A lot. Often while I'm playing DayZ. I think this can be applied to a lot of other people, too.

Yeah I've got no other points, lol. But what I am saying is that not everyone who may absolutely abhor the system [either the kill mechanism or merely the 'COMBAT LOGGED' label] are regular combat loggers or what you stated for b.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Doesn't that put you in the category of the players that need to find somewhere run by good admins? I play regularly on the same server and I'm sure that if my connection fails and I'm flagged as logging I'll be able to approach the admin and discuss the matter rationally. Where i play the admins are frequently having to check through logs to establish cases of combat logging, this changes nothing in that respect apart from helping the admins by flagging up potential incidents.

[venthos 605]

Understandable, Inception. I understand it's a crappy situation. But, why does DayZ have to be an exception? I'm not aware of any game that has compromised its playability to accommodate for unreliable connections. If you play an MMORPG and lose connection in a boss fight, GMs aren't going to warp you back/restore experience/etc/etc. If you play a ranked shooter match and disconnect, the operators aren't going to setup a rematch. Why does DayZ have to compromise? I mean I didn't sit here going "mwahahaha only the internet elite will get to play DayZ now!". But, I didn't want to compromise my system simply for the sake of that. Especially for (and I can't believe this was brought up)... storms? We can't enact a combat system because of... storms?

Stuff happens. It's crappy. But the aim is to cause the most inconvenience/penalty to actual combat loggers. As has been stated and restated, your best bet is to not just pick random servers each time you play (if you do that) and pick a server to establish yourself in its community. If people get to be familiar with your name in fights and the admin recognizes you as a stand up player, your connectivity shouldn't be an issue. The admin would be understanding.

As has also been said, if people don't like this -- it'll go away. It's community driven after all. I'm just blown away by the people who are outright against it and claiming it's going to cause the apocalypse in game before it's even out. Give 'er a go on DayZ Redux. Go look for the "massive threads" complaining about how the combat system is terrible (and the Redux one KILLS combat loggers, the one going into DayZ official does not kill). I think I'm personally aware of one complaint thread early on. I mean there's people who frown about getting nicked by it unjustly, but their response is either [1] Oh well, since I didn't actually combat log I just ran back to my body -or- [2] They ask me for help, I review the logs, and teleport them in the database (private hive) back to their body. (Another reminder: DayZ officials version does NOT kill. Alert/log only)

Sure there's got to be people who get frustrated and don't bother posting anything and just leave the mod. But, I have to imagine that with such a low complaint count and TWO servers bouncing off the 40 slot caps, it's not some "game ending mechanic" that some people in this thread and wanting to claim it to be. It's more common to see posts from people who are smirking at the fact someone tried to combat log on them (and didn't realize the mechanic was in place).

The sheer aversion to an aesthetic reprimand only (before it's even been released and tried out) is just weird to me. As has ALWAYS been the case, finding a respectable server with a good admin is key to an enjoyable gaming experience with DayZ.

As to whoever told me "Well if it's not perfect, why not make it perfect". I'd be happy to, but I doubt I'm getting access to ARMA2 Engine and BattlEye source code any time soon :P For it to be near perfected, they'd have to be able to "talk" to each other so that ARMA2 scripting could determine if and why someone was ejected from the game via BattlEye, RCON, etc. It's about as perfect as it CAN be given the limitations, but the limitations are bountiful. If Rocket decides to implement something like this system in standalone, he would have the opportunity to polish it up quite a bit more given they have access to the engine source.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Venthos

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I wouldn't worry Venthos. If there's one thing I've learned from being a mod on here it's that the people with negative views (Inception, I'm not including you in this) are far more vocal than the generally happy majority. If you look back through this thread there really is only one or two people that have raised objections. There's probably hundreds of people that have read the thread and just thought "Nice one! Let's give it a go!".

It's very easy to get a skewed view on opinions just by focusing on the negative comments. The majority of feedback I've seen regarding this on other threads (including the forum for the community where I play) has all been eccellent and people are excited to see it introduced.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Fraggle

[joeoblong@yahoo.com 614]

If you look at Walker's past posts you can judge for yourself the character he has. I wouldn't put much stock into what he says, his motives are suspect.

I am curious what he suggests to fix alt- f4'ing or any of the problems we have with the mod? (without needing to alter the source code of arma or BE)

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Pendragon, your sig has never been more appropriate than now.

[joeoblong@yahoo.com 614]

Pendragon, your sig has never been more appropriate than now.

Ah yes... if only I could only live up to ol' Ben's words of wisdom as well! (We both know I rarely live up to them! But i will freely admit I am a fool!)

[SmokeyFTM 55]

So how soon is soon for the 1.7.3 patch? i want me dog

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Wrong thread mate. You need to go and look at the official thread in the announcements section for all of the latest info.

[kainelderan 10]

As a current private hive (bliss) server admin, I very much look forward to this being implemented. I am constantly having players complaining of others that combat log or that "hack", yet most of the time their accusations are actually not true. I've banned a whole 3 people for combat logging - one I witnessed myself and 2 that had video proof. Most of the time it's near impossible as an admin to figure out when people are doing things like combat logging or hacking, so this being added in will be invaluable to me.

@Venthos,

Thank you so much for your hard work on this. Just realize that a lot of times those who are happy with a system are quiet, while those who complain will scream at the top of their lungs about it. I've found this to be true across 20 years of gaming and being at various levels of admin/leadership and I'm sure any developer that deals with the public can say the same - it's why most devs are not often involved in posting in their own community forums very often. Keep your head up and know that there are many of us that appreciate your work.

[WalkerDown (DayZ) 296]

his motives are suspect.

Yes.. i'm a vampire.

I am curious what he suggests to fix alt- f4'ing or any of the problems we have with the mod? (without needing to alter the source code of arma or BE)

"Fixing" (adjusting) some other things first and then implement a combat logging (extended) solution, because the main problem here isn't the current fix but the consequences cause by the fix because of other problems.

First i would "fix" the server hop in example, adding a logic that would prevent you to log into another server and then switch back (i proposed a working solution some months ago...).

Then i would look extensively at what this "combat logging" is going to affect.

Then i'll finally add a combat logging system that would silentely collect the data (no spam in chat) to analyze the data and figure the % of malicious combat logs (because yes.. there's "legit" combat logs).

And finally i'll release it to the public....

Rushing like this isn't going to work at all.. will only cause confusion and rage posting in the forum.

Again: it's ok for me.. it's a big advantage for my gameplay, i can trap a poor guy in the office while i can do anything i want with my team.. but this is going to be a nightmare for a whole bunch "average" players.

[WalkerDown (DayZ) 296]

As a current private hive (bliss) server admin, I very much look forward to this being implemented. I am constantly having players complaining of others that combat log or that "hack", yet most of the time their accusations are actually not true. I've banned a whole 3 people for combat logging - one I witnessed myself and 2 that had video proof. Most of the time it's near impossible as an admin to figure out when people are doing things like combat logging or hacking, so this being added in will be invaluable to me.

It won't change much for you at the current stage.. you will end with a long list of possible combat loggers and you'll steel need a "visual proof" of what's really happened or you're just guessing. If i'll play on your server and i have to take a piss but there's an idiot shooting outside of a building to someone else (ie: he doesn't even know im within 70 meters), i will not care at all about this system, i will kill the process... then what you will do? Are you going to ban me...? Congratulation: you banned a "legit" user that did nothing wrong .. and i'll go play on another server. This IS the combat system *currently*.

[venthos 605]

First i would "fix" the server hop in example, adding a logic that would prevent you to log into another server and then switch back (i proposed a working solution some months ago...).

I can't think of an effective solution that doesn't instantiate arbitrary/unreliable methods that would essentially be either ineffective or far too punishing. This is why DayZ Redux does not currently and does not plan to use multi-server hives. Every server I turn up will be independent. If you'd like to link to your thread, I'd be glad to read your opinions on the matter.

Then i'll finally add a combat logging system that would silentely collect the data (no spam in chat) to analyze the data and figure the % of malicious combat logs (because yes.. there's "legit" combat logs).

And finally i'll release it to the public....

This doesn't stop combat logging, it just punishes people way way after the fact. The first and foremost effect I wanted with my solution was to stop the frustrations of legitimate players having cowards combat log on them. Even if you enact some silent logging thing, that legitimate users frustration and inability to claim his or her reward. It seems backwards to me to punish the legit player by letting them still get frustrated and err on the side of rewarding the combat logger until/if the admin decides to do anything later. That's why DayZ Redux's method kills. When it works properly (which it does most of the time) the combat logger is punished, and the attacker is unaffected by the combat logging -- loots the stuff up -- and moves on. I want my legit players to have smooth play. The "kill" aspect doesn't work for public hives admittedly, because they can't "make whole" again people who were unjustly combat logged. But, I'd rather manually address the rare unjust combat log instead of manually address the cowardly combat log. At least with the method going into DayZ official, it's a balance of the two. Cowards still get called out immediately (and can later be dealt with), and unjust combat logs have no effect beyond aesthetics.

Rushing like this isn't going to work at all.. will only cause confusion and rage posting in the forum.

Again: it's ok for me.. it's a big advantage for my gameplay, i can trap a poor guy in the office while i can do anything i want with my team.. but this is going to be a nightmare for a whole bunch "average" players.

So you're going to "exploit" the system by... using it just as it's intended? What you describe (trapping someone in an office so they can't combat log) is verbatim one of the situations that this system empowers you to do and result in punishment for the person inside for cowardly logging. If you're talking about "trapping" him in place with no intent of killing him and just forcing him to stay logged in, then I don't see how that would work. He'd get sick of it and rush out at you and get killed/kill you. Again, this isn't a "Fischer Price Presents: Fun Time Fair Combat" feature. I don't care if a squad of 20 rolls up on someone with a Makarov and just laughs and pins them down in a building so there's no possible outcome other than their certain death. Just because it's not a "fair fight" doesn't justify a combat log. Own up to a fight and partake in it, even if it means certain death.

Last week on Redux we had a Huey and chased some guy off into (coincidentally) an office building. The gunner kept occasionally firing a round into the area where we believed he was hiding (to keep him in combat) as we watched all the exits from the sky. A squad mate dropped out with a parachute and went on to assault on foot and eventually found and killed the player. Note that our fire then put our own squad mate in combat, and we still had no idea exactly where he was in the building. The guy we were pursuing could've just as easily killed our own guy. It was pretty awesome, because we knew if it weren't for the combat system the guy would've logged. Later on, the victim of that fight posted to the forums and mentioned how scary/cool it was. It wasn't a fair fight for him, but the combat played out. That's what this system aims to do, force you to, well.. play the game.

The only "legit" combat log is one to evade a hacker, which we've gone over ad nauseam to the extent that there is no real negative effect as long as the admin for the server is competent.

[WalkerDown (DayZ) 296]

I can't think of an effective solution that doesn't instantiate arbitrary/unreliable methods that would essentially be either ineffective or far too punishing.

Uh? This is exactly what the current "combat system" will do! lol

This is why DayZ Redux does not currently and does not plan to use multi-server hives. Every server I turn up will be independent. If you'd like to link to your thread, I'd be glad to read your opinions on the matter.

..and that's why i said that you "tested" this system under a controlled environment, but when applied on large scale it's not going to work as expected.

(lot of words...)

I've talked about the "frustration" of someone logging out in front of you while you're trying to kill him/her.. *but* this is not if compared to the frustration of being punished by a flawed system. Yes you can ignore the cheaters, shut your eyes and pretend they doesn't exists.. but this won't mean they won't cheat!

I will exploit this system in the exact means of that term: i will use, with my team, the flaws of it for my advantage.

The only "legit" combat log is one to evade a hacker, which we've gone over ad nauseam to the extent that there is no real negative effect as long as the admin for the server is competent.

Someone have server-hopped IS a legit reason to quit.

Taking a piss even if someone's shooting to someoneelse at 70 meters far from you, IS a perfect good legit to quit...

Should i really continue with stupid examples of why ppl should be able to quit without consequences?

[kaliber 0]

Venthos you're just wasting your valuable time with walkerdown here.

I'm only in the official forums because of the update naturally. Normally i don't touch this place with a ten foot pole because "official" forums suffur from obvious trools like our dear "friend" here.

You've stated your case beyond all reason dude deal with rational arguments instead of giving trolls a forum.

Edited October 31, 2012 by kaliber

[venthos 605]

It's pretty clear that you've just been trolling me the past few posts. So all I have to say at this point is it's good that this is a community effort and not reliant upon your unfounded reasonings. At least you're honest when you said you're providing "stupid examples", they are quite stupid.

I'll stop contributing toward the pollution of this thread by responding to your drivel. Your trolling of me ends here. We'll see what becomes of the situation once it rolls out live. The only concern I have is of lag/desync, which is why I'm rewriting it for next Redux patch to fix it. Had I had the opportunity to have any say in its inclusion to 1.7.3, I would've requested it be held back until such time as my rewrite. But, I wasn't involved in the project until afterward.

'til release, WalkerDown. Rage on, my friend.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Venthos

[SmashT 10907]

Speaking of which, the patch is live.

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/103658-build-173-rolling-update/

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

@Walkerdamus. You've taken enough of Venthos' time and he has been gracious enough to answer all of your questions. We are all now well aware of your concerns and no more posts are needed. Please don't post on this thread again, my patience has worn too thin. Please feel free to make your own thread regarding this update where you will be able to discuss it at length with whoever wants to contribute.

Just to clarify: If you post on this thread again I will issue you a temporary posting ban. If you are not happy with this situation please contact Griff with your concerns.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Fraggle

[Heiduk 265]

You misunderstand me. My gut reaction isn't "I want to seek legal action". It's "wow, having this happen to my code (the two independent projects yanking 100% of my code) makes me want to never create anything else".

I wasn't suggesting that you wanted to seek legal action. I was simply trying to point out that when the ownership and licensing status of "free" code is not clear the sort of misunderstanding with your code being include in 1.7.3 is inevitable. These sorts of misunderstanding are completely unnecessary. It literally takes 10 minutes, and no lawyers, to apply something like an MIT style license to your code. Then it is clear to everyone who it belongs to, how you intend it to be used, and what attribution you expect.