Crash course on the 1.7.3 Combat System (by the person who wrote it)

[Leadon77 94]

If you have an inventory full of flares and are willing to animation lock yourself to throw them all at great risk to yourself (vulnerable to other players), then I think you've well earned the ability to keep someone logged on. Since the only punishment enforced is aesthetic (server announcement/log data) in that hacker situation, I would be more frightened by a server admin that couldn't process logic and reason enough to understand when such a situation is occurring and therefore not react negatively to their player base as a result. An inexperienced admin frightens me way more than a hacker in that circumstance, since the only threat in your combat log scenario is the retaliation of the admin -- not the hacker.

Thank you for that response. So if you have an inactive admin a hacker is going to be a problem(no matter what) this just makes it a bit more difficult to log out. But the standard logout still works and doesn't show you as a combat logger correct....

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Sorry with Dayz Official i tought u were talking about the game (not the mod).

I'm also reading the official changelog... and it says:

* [NEW] New Combat System If you fire a weapon, someone fires a weapon near you, or a bullet/object impacts near you, then you go into combat. During combat, "ABORT" is disabled. If you ALT-F4/close anyway, your character is considered "combat logged" and instantly killed and leaves a body.

so i'm not sure if i've to follow you or rocket, so before continuing you should arrange a sort of coordination.

I agree that can lead to confusion, if you follow that thread it is addressed several times though.

[sibexus 26]

People should read entire threads instead of just one post then rage about it. I've personally playedon Redux servers since they've been active and haven't had a single problem with the combat logging feature. In fact, I'll be honest and say I've actually logged out in the middle of being shot at by a heli, I hid under a tree and 30 seconds when by... I logged. Simple as that. You can still avoid any problems easily, It's the blatant alt-f4's that are being controlled here, those that when hit one time automatically hit alt-f4. If that's you, then complain all you want about zombies, disconnects, power outages, etc... we see you for what you are. cowards.

[venthos 605]

Sorry with Dayz Official i tought u were talking about the game (not the mod).

I'm also reading the official changelog... and it says:

* [NEW] New Combat System If you fire a weapon, someone fires a weapon near you, or a bullet/object impacts near you, then you go into combat. During combat, "ABORT" is disabled. If you ALT-F4/close anyway, your character is considered "combat logged" and instantly killed and leaves a body.

so i'm not sure if i've to follow you or rocket, so before continuing you should arrange a sort of coordination.

Take it from R4Z0R49, the team lead of the DayZ Community Team, who posted a few pages into that announcement that the change log Rocket posted was inaccurate and that the "kill" feature was not being brought over: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/103211-pending-update-build-173-community-edition/page__st__40#entry969684

Thank you for that response. So if you have an inactive admin a hacker is going to be a problem(no matter what) this just makes it a bit more difficult to log out. But the standard logout still works and doesn't show you as a combat logger correct....

The combat system only produces an "Alert" to the server population and the server logs that you combat logged (in DayZ official, at least). If you REALLY decide to go all out and circumvent the anti-combat log mechanism (blocking "abort" and "ALT-F4") and end the game process, your only fear of retaliation is by the server admin. I'm curious to see if this spawns a "Community Ban List - Combat Logger Edition". I guess we'll have to wait and see. WIthout something like that, people could quite easily just server hop as they get banned and move along. But like I said, the "negative" in the implementation going forward for DayZ means the biggest negative impact would potentially come from irresponsible admins.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I know several people that only have good things to say about the Redux servers, I'm VERY happy to see Venthos getting involved and hopefully getting some of the credit he deserves for his hard work. I remember reading his first post ages ago about what he had planned for his project (as well as prior posts when I could sense his frustration at some of the game mechanics) and it's great to see it has come this far. Rather than just sitting on the sidelines complaining, he has stepped up and offered a solution. Not many of us can say they've done that.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Fraggle

[Leadon77 94]

Okay I got the ALT F4 thing I get that...I'm wondering if someone's throwing chemlights in front of a building I'm in and I hit esc and log that way is it going to show a combat log?

[venthos 605]

The "Abort" button would be disabled (to prevent you from accidentally combat logging when in combat) and you would hear the flare of whoever was being a jackass outside so you could promptly dispatch some lead into their cranium ;)

[Leadon77 94]

The "Abort" button would be disabled (to prevent you from accidentally combat logging when in combat) and you would hear the flare of whoever was being a jackass outside so you could promptly dispatch some lead into their cranium ;)

Awesome thank you for that answer that's what I was wondering so the long logout still will allow you to exit but alf F4 is locked got it! Awesome that's kinda what I've been wondering if all logout attempts are locked or just the quick quit. I've never used alt F4 but should I ever find myself teleported to a thunderdome I'd like an option to logout at least. (even though I'm sure I'm already dead either way)

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

To be fair, common sense dictates that you should always find a nice quiet spot to log out. Being worried about logging out in a building in a busy city is a small price to pay for dealing with the bigger issue of combat logging IMO.

[Oakatsura 9]

I say let the Server Admins have control over whether the 1.7.3 Combat System is either Passive or Active (Redux), there are a lot of admins that ban people for combat logging, this essentially tells a player, well I'm out another server, if we allow server admins to use Redux as part of the 1.7.3 patch with an option in the log files, this would reduce the number of people that would essentially "Ban" players for Combat Logging since they die as a result of the log effect.

Ban or Die, I'd rather just die,

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I think the key (as with most things) is finding a server with a good admin. Where I play, I trust the admins. Any bans are always discussed in the open and dealt with accordingly. If you're playing on a server where the admin is a douche, no game mechanics are going to help you, that admin is always going to be a douche.

P.S - Sorry Venthos, I'll get off of your thread now.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Fraggle

[Leadon77 94]

I normally find a nice quiet spot to log out but when my kids need me they need me, and yes they have caused numerous of my deaths. I'm just trying to figure out if I need to worry about being labeled a combat logger if I log out while my friends are killing zeds in a building or not...basically as I understand it as long as I don't ALT F4 then it doesn't say I combat logged. Thanks for the clarification

[venthos 605]

I say let the Server Admins have control over whether the 1.7.3 Combat System is either Passive or Active (Redux), there are a lot of admins that ban people for combat logging, this essentially tells a player, well I'm out another server, if we allow server admins to use Redux as part of the 1.7.3 patch with an option in the log files, this would reduce the number of people that would essentially "Ban" players for Combat Logging since they die as a result of the log effect.

Ban or Die, I'd rather just die,

I agree with you in principle, but the whole "Public Hive" is what throws it for a loop. If you allow people to selectively implement the "Active" mode, they are still affecting the players on the public hive and therefore not just your own server. This means, if I'm a terrible self-entitled admin, I would be able to:

- Turn on the active 'kill' mode.

- Get frustrated with someone in game

- Shoot at them

- Kick them from console/etc, forcing a combat log (since a "kick" counts as a disconnect).

I could then effectively kill anyone I wanted on-demand from the public hive. This same danger exists in the private hive, but it's just that -- private. They can't affect your public hive character. I've said it before and I still stand by it. The faction of DayZ server admins that I classify under the "self-entitled jerk bags" heading are probably the second most detrimental thing to the game, second only to hackers. It doesn't matter what the code allows for if there's a jerk admin at the helm ruining their players' game play. That's the unfortunate reasoning behind why DayZ Redux isn't wide open for everyone to use. Some of the code I have in place is just so prone to admin abuse, and it would really bother me to see admins abusing my work and giving it a bad name. If Redux fails, I want it to be because of me. Not bad admins. Right now I'm in the process of trying to identify trustworthy admins to run additional DayZ Redux boxes (we need'em, bad. They're pretty rare, too). But, that's why this modified version of the system is going into the public DayZ release since it can't be abused by admins beyond just getting you banned from that admin's server vs. killing your hive character. I'm sure I'm going to get TONS of flak for this paragraph, but it's the truth of why Redux is private.

[venthos 605]

P.S - Sorry Venthos, I'll get off of your thread now.

Haha no worries. I'm actually honored to see you interested in something I've contributed to/worked on ;)

[Leadon77 94]

^ Honesty I like it you got my :beans: !

[Oakatsura 9]

I agree with you in principle, but the whole "Public Hive" is what throws it for a loop. If you allow people to selectively implement the "Active" mode, they are still affecting the players on the public hive and therefore not just your own server. This means, if I'm a terrible self-entitled admin, I would be able to:

- Turn on the active 'kill' mode.

- Get frustrated with someone in game

- Shoot at them

- Kick them from console/etc, forcing a combat log (since a "kick" counts as a disconnect).

I could then effectively kill anyone I wanted on-demand from the public hive. This same danger exists in the private hive, but it's just that -- private. They can't affect your public hive character. I've said it before and I still stand by it. The faction of DayZ server admins that I classify under the "self-entitled jerk bags" heading are probably the second most detrimental thing to the game, second only to hackers. It doesn't matter what the code allows for if there's a jerk admin at the helm ruining their players' game play. That's the unfortunate reasoning behind why DayZ Redux isn't wide open for everyone to use. Some of the code I have in place is just so prone to admin abuse, and it would really bother me to see admins abusing my work and giving it a bad name. If Redux fails, I want it to be because of me. Not bad admins. Right now I'm in the process of trying to identify trustworthy admins to run additional DayZ Redux boxes (we need'em, bad. They're pretty rare, too). But, that's why this modified version of the system is going into the public DayZ release since it can't be abused by admins beyond just getting you banned from that admin's server vs. killing your hive character. I'm sure I'm going to get TONS of flak for this paragraph, but it's the truth of why Redux is private.

True, but essentially unless their complete and utter dicks, most admins that do that mostly just ban out of disregard anyway, mostly Public hives shouldn't have access to the Redux System, however a Private hive where its a lot less serious should be given this. Though an extra command line could also prevent admin abuse from Redux by identifying BEC-Player Kick and Admin Kick as a disqualifier for death. However this essentially could also be seen as a advantage for Admin groups that kick players in danger. However players seeing this will be more likely to leave then stay and would be less contrivercial overall.

Just saying, you do make a good point, but there are ways of working it so that it is both workable and useful in certain cases.

[venthos 605]

a Private hive where its a lot less serious should be given this.

Funny you should mention this. I just learned (2 minutes ago) of yet another mod group who has taken to lifting 100% of my DayZ Redux code base and rebranding it without even contacting me or asking for permission. Well, that's a bit of a fib. They contacted me with general ARMA2 modding questions on how to get started and basically resulted in me helping them with lifting all of my code more easily out from under my nose. I guess that's what I get for being helpful?

The constant lifting of my code, especially without even contacting me for permission, is getting tiresome and draining my drive to innovate new features and fixes. What happens if the person people love to steal code from stops generating new code altogether? They make me want to find out. I don't understand people, apparently. Why the aversion to contacting me and asking for permission?

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

BTW - I know a very good admin (team) that I'd be more than happy to recommend to you for running one of your boxes. I haven't asked him/them yet but if your still looking just PM me and I'll put you in touch.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Fraggle

[Leadon77 94]

Funny you should mention this. I just learned (2 minutes ago) of yet another mod group who has taken to lifting 100% of my DayZ Redux code base and rebranding it without even contacting me or asking for permission. Well, that's a bit of a fib. They contacted me with general ARMA2 modding questions on how to get started and basically resulted in me helping them with lifting all of my code more easily out from under my nose. I guess that's what I get for being helpful?

The constant lifting of my code, especially without even contacting me for permission, is getting tiresome and draining my drive to innovate new features and fixes. What happens if the person people love to steal code from stops generating new code altogether? They make me want to find out. I don't understand people, apparently. Why the aversion to contacting me and asking for permission?

The reason usually stems from lack of care, respect, or knowledge of the creator.

[duggedank 28]

Funny you should mention this. I just learned (2 minutes ago) of yet another mod group who has taken to lifting 100% of my DayZ Redux code base and rebranding it without even contacting me or asking for permission. Well, that's a bit of a fib. They contacted me with general ARMA2 modding questions on how to get started and basically resulted in me helping them with lifting all of my code more easily out from under my nose. I guess that's what I get for being helpful?

The constant lifting of my code, especially without even contacting me for permission, is getting tiresome and draining my drive to innovate new features and fixes. What happens if the person people love to steal code from stops generating new code altogether? They make me want to find out. I don't understand people, apparently. Why the aversion to contacting me and asking for permission?

Hey Venthos I understand where you're coming from with this frustration. It does sting when people just grabs stuff like that. But my advice is to just try and accept that people will do it, only thing you can do is ask everyone to please credit you for your work when they snatch it. But what's more important is never to give up, they might steal your code, but they damn well can't steal your inspiration and innovation! You just keep improving DayZ Redux and constantly show everyone that you're version of it is the best, that all the copycats are just copycats and they will never be able to keep up with you :)

That's really all there is too it, if people want to copy you that's their problem, but you know that they can not and will not create something better than what you are doing yourself.

Ah, and another thing, you might want to check out what Fraggle is suggesting........ ;)

Thanks for the reply on the chloroform by the way, I completely understand what you're saying, I just like the idea of that thing so much :D

Edited October 30, 2012 by DuggeDank

[Mos1ey 6301]

Thanks for the explanation but this means if me and my friends are playing and I shoot a pig but they disconnect within 30 seconds that they will be announced as combat loggers. Talk about a great griefing tool. Oh you wanna log out ya go ahead (fires pistol) oh wait haha you just combat logged.... Wish there was a better way....

The abort button is disabled for 30 seconds, You won't be punished unless you alt + F4...

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Funny you should mention this. I just learned (2 minutes ago) of yet another mod group who has taken to lifting 100% of my DayZ Redux code base and rebranding it without even contacting me or asking for permission. Well, that's a bit of a fib. They contacted me with general ARMA2 modding questions on how to get started and basically resulted in me helping them with lifting all of my code more easily out from under my nose. I guess that's what I get for being helpful?

The constant lifting of my code, especially without even contacting me for permission, is getting tiresome and draining my drive to innovate new features and fixes. What happens if the person people love to steal code from stops generating new code altogether? They make me want to find out. I don't understand people, apparently. Why the aversion to contacting me and asking for permission?

I would forget these twats and remember the bigger goal. Don't let people like that make you give up. Just think, when they run into issues (which they will) they'll have no idea how to sort any of it out because it's your code. There's always going to be a grey area where someone will edit and possibly improve your code and then call it their own. If it's a straight up case of them just taking without giving you any credit then just make yourself a nuisance, I'll be happy to help, ask anyone here, I can be a pain in the ass when I want.

Also, for the most part, people here are pretty well informed and it won't take long for them to be found out.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Fraggle

[Heiduk 265]

There's always going to be a grey area where someone will edit and possibly improve your code and then call it their own.

This is only really a gray area if the author has failed to clearly indicate the copyright and licensing status of their code. Almost all software licenses are very clear about what uses are allowed, including modifications, and what credit, if any, must be given to the original author. Even without clear statements I don't think there is much of gray area in the strict legal sense, unless otherwise stated I think copyrighted with all rights reserved is the default assumption. Just because modders often fail to explicitly deal with these issue doesn't mean other developers haven't already solved them.

I've submitted an issued to R4Z0R49's github branch suggesting they clarify the copyright and licensing status of their code. Once this is done they can require new contributers provide a statement that they own the code they are submitting and they either agree to release it under the project's terms or assign copyright to the project. This should prevent the sort of copy and paste without credit Venthos is complaining about. In all fairness though, Venthos should probably take some responsibility for what happened. Although a lawyer may not agree, if his code was publicly available without copyright and license statements someone might reasonably assume, in the context of a modding community, that his code was in the public domain and could be reused without credit.

Just because something is free on the Internet doesn't mean it's Free and if you want credit for your work then take steps to protect that right.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Wow, that attitude is really going to drive this community project forward :/ .

The only people that benefit from situations like this in the long run are lawyers and solicitors. I personally hate all of that letigious bullshit. It would be a sad state of affairs if a modder working on a community project for free and for the greater good of that community felt the need to take legal action and line the pockets of some already well heeled legal eagles. Luckily, many of us still have that god given gift of common sense, thus enabling us to deal with situations like this sensibly without a single lawyer ever needing to be awoken from his over-priced Merlot induced slumber.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Fraggle

[root 48]

I have been with Redux since it was first time started. I love combat log system and Redux. IMO it should be implemented in Dayz mod as well. It's nice that it will make a log entry in log file,but I don't think admins gonna check how many times that player combat logged and ban him.

Edited October 30, 2012 by root`