Sniping in DayZ. The built in hack & how it should change for the better/harder

[Cheboygan 93]

[Also includes some tips for snipers and non-snipers]

I've seen a growing number of calls for removal of god-weapons and making sniper rifles harder to find, or removing them altogether, this worries me.

I can understand the sentiment. We all hate hackers because they have the power to ruin the game unfairly with a single click of their mouse and end your life. As sniping is currently implemented in DayZ it's not too far from a hack itself.

I play primarily as a sniper and I want to see it become a lot more difficult for my kind. It's currently not fair to other players because sniping is far too easy to do effectively. Anyone should be able to find a high powered rifle and range finder easily; putting a round in some new spawn in Cherno from 700m should not be easy. Don't limit the availability of the gear, make it more realistic to use.

Sniping, marksmanship, and external ballistics is one of my real-life fields of knowledge. I've played the ArmA series since it came out as Operation Flashpoint in 2001 [yes I'm old]. The environment, realism level, sniping (and on an unrelated note, helicopter flight) were the things that drew me to it so much.

I used to create small missions to practice sniper/spotter roles with people, as well as having competing sniper teams hunt each other down. This worked well because everyone was on a level playing field with equipment and environment. It was about the tactics and strategy, not the shooting (which everyone could do equally well with similar equipment).

In DayZ that equality goes right out the window. It's you and your flashlight against a world of Ghillie guys with AS50's and L85's who need only to set their scopes to your range and spam shots at noobs until they run out of ammo. Why should you be required to have the skill to evade all the dangers of DayZ, while they aren't required to know how to shoot long range?

** The cowbell you always wear for snipers/bandits **

Before we get into that I want to mention an issue which gives snipers in DayZ another huge advantage over their prey.

There's a game mechanic which you can't escape (no matter how sly you think you are) that gives you away. You may as well be walking around Cherno with a road flare at night, even during the day.

The zombies.

I'm sure most of you know that zombies only spawn when players are within a certain radius of their spawn points. Well, snipers and regular bandits know that too.

A sniper/bandit can lay prone over a thousand meters outside any deserted point of interest on the map (visibility permitting) and when zombies appear, they know there's a new victim to pick off. You can be the stealthiest player in the game, and they're still going to know you're there because of the zombies.

I hope this can be fixed at some point by having zombies be present even if a player is not around. As a programmer [not a game programmer] I understand the overhead issues surrounding this. Perhaps in the standalone version [where Rocket has more control over the underlying code] zombies can hurr-durr around all the time, but only activate their visual and audio scanning when a player is in their vicinity. Or maybe the raytracing can be done client side from the player to the zombies which would then check to see if the zombies are facing that direction when the player is visible to them, thereby triggering the aggro.(?)

I read somewhere that Rocket started DayZ as purely a survival (without zombies) mod. I'd love to see a version of DayZ with more players and no NPC's. I'm not sure it would be as popular, or even if I would like it as much as DayZ, but NPC's always find a way to bring a game down. Would be neat to see what DayZ would be like without them and the problems they bring along.

** Sniping and realism **

As for the snipers; DayZ is supposed to be hard, but not unrealistically unfair. It's supposed to be hard for the right reasons. In a real world post apocalypse of any kind there is only going to be one out of several thousand people able to make accurate shots at distances beyond 400 meters. Per capita there are more people who know how to fly planes and helicopters than know how to shoot like this.

Realistically, if you were a survivor among 100 [or less] others, the chances that any one of them would have the skills or patience needed to be a successful sniper are pretty damn low.

If people want to be snipers in DayZ, make them learn. Just like you have to learn the map, learn how to get around zombies, use the gps, DMR holdovers, helicopter flying, etc. It's not extremely difficult to learn, but difficult enough that if people had to learn it there would be a much more realistic ratio of sniper to non-sniper survivors. People could still easily pick up a DMR or hunting rifle and be effective to a few hundred meters/yards.

What should be fairly common in DayZ (especially considering the number of deer stands) is the equipment. Rangefinders that work out to 600m and Deer rifles with adjustable scopes should be common in just about any rural home in Chernarus. Rangefinders that work to 800m and beyond should be somewhat more rare, as should match grade long-range rifles and ranging scope reticles, like the mildot scopes found on US military sniper rifles.

Finding the equipment shouldn't be the hard part, using it effectively should be.

When a bullet is fired from a high powered rifle many external factors influence where it's going to hit.

Some of these things ArmA does a fair job at, but simplifies so much that anyone who can range a target can hit it [my 13 yo son has a 34 day character with an AS50 and a lot of kills to prove it, and he doesn't know anything more about applying external ballistics to shooting than most other people].

A few facts about long-range shooting:

Every rifle and ammo pair has it's own accuracy to a certain degree. The measurement is MOA (Minute of Angle/Arc) which roughly equates to 1” at 100 yards. A common deer rifle/ammo pair might shoot within 2MOA @ 100 yards. This means that it will be able to hit a 2” target reliably at 100 yards. At 200 yards it becomes 4”, at 800 yards 16”. Match grade ammo and barrels on higher end rifles and sniper rifles are commonly closer to .25MOA.

NOTE: There are other factors such as transitional phases to and from stable flight. When a bullet leaves the barrel of a rifle it's not stable, and when it starts slowing to a trans-sonic/sub-sonic speed it becomes unstable. I don't think this stability is very important to emulate in-game.

Wind has drastic effects on shot placement. A 1mph breeze (depending on angle/direction) on a 175gr M118LR bullet fired from an M24 or M40 will blow the bullet roughly 10 full inches off course over 1000 yards [depending on atmospheric pressure]. Several factors determine how this works with different rounds and calibers. It's even more of a bitch in real-life when wind can be blowing multiple directions and speeds over the path of your shot.

Repeatedly firing a rifle causes the barrel temperature to rise. The barrel reacts to this by warping. As the barrel of a gun gets hot and warps, it throws off the shot and this can be quite drastic depending on the barrel and distance being shot. Spamming with a sniper rifle decreases your accuracy. Time should be required to cool the barrel to regain accuracy. Non match grade rifles (like the CZ and DMR) should be way more prone to warping (and slower at recovery) as match grade sniper barrels are thicker and have more surface area to dissipate the heat faster.

Sniper rifle scopes do not adjust by range. They adjust by fractions (usually ¼ or 1/8 MOA). The reason is that [depending on atmospheric pressure due to mostly altitude and temperature and incline shooting] a bullet may take quite a drastically different path in flight because it faces more or less air resistance and gravity. A marksman would have to adjust his scope dope MOA to accommodate for these differences. When you adjust a rifle scope, you're moving the crosshairs to where the bullet should hit. Under different circumstances (even on the same day) that scope will have to be adjusted differently for the same range shot.

Recoil in game should not return to on-target so well. This increases the need for a spotter for follow up shots after a miss. The spotter should have a mildot reticle spotting scope centered on the target and tell the shooter where the bullet splashed so the shooter can adjust his follow up shot to be on target. Currently it's way to easy to do as a single shooter.

Due to accuracy and velocity degradation I would like to see DayZ adopt a damage model where shots are more likely to miss at extreme ranges and do far less damage based on MOA. The AS50 [for example] is listed as a 1.5MOA shooting solution [pretty horrid for sniping]. At 1000 meters it's far more likely to simply graze a human size target than provide a direct kill hit. A headshot being mostly improbable.

Running these calculations requires very little (almost none) overhead at all and could easily be factored into the game. In fact, there's a mod for ArmA called ACE which does some of this, as well as other great changes to other areas of game play.

The simplicity of sniping in this game steals away from its authenticity more so than it does when playing regular ArmA missions where everyone gets their gear from the beginning. Until you get that gear you're just a target. You better forget about the zombies and just run, because the snipers know you're there, and you're easy to hit if you're not moving. Zombies are going to kill you slowly [if they even catch you], the sniper has an unrealistic ability to end you most instantly.

Running [by itself] isn't enough to throw the sniper, partially due to the issues I listed above [especially warpage and recoil], but also because it's not hard to note the distance a target runs in mils while counting the time it's going to take the bullet to get to them, then simply lead them by that many mils and shoot. I've made enough 700m sprinting headshots in game [that I know I never would have made in real life] to know it's way too easy in game.

I would like to see DayZ at least adopt a skill level per server [like ArmA has with recruit, veteran, expert, etc] in which the expert level has realistic ballistics and sniping mechanics.

I think most players would appreciate this as when they're fresh spawns trying to work their way up to the good loot they aren't going to be such easy targets for snipers, and because of the difficulty required to accurately snipe there won't be nearly as many, certainly not as many effective ones. Likewise, those who really want to snipe in the game would love the challenge of learning the craft. After all, it's how difficult and unforgiving that DayZ challenge is that draws most of us to it, and learning external ballistics isn't really rocket science. There are even numerous applications for PC, Android, iOS, and even Palm to calculate your shots. I currently use Shooter on Android [in real-life] to generate range cards for my rifle at different temperatures at my altitude.

I made some remarks about the availability of rangefinders (and other gear) on reddit and was told by someone basically not to be a carebear and learn mildots. My argument was that rangefinders should be more available, and that mildots aren't nearly as useful in the game as they are in real life where there are several common things you can measure and use for rangefinding via mildot. Getting accurate range off a distant prone target where you're guessing the height isn't nearly as accurate as measuring the mils of the stop sign, car wheel, or door frame he's next to, which you know the exact size of. Not to mention the problems introduced when mildot rangefinding at an angle.. By then I had a rangefinder for a while and used it to reverse measure some common things in DayZ, such as the window frame of the firehouse, the store glass, different doors and windows on different structures, vehicle wheels, etc. So I could mildot different items from my hide and draw range-card maps to different things. I knew if someone was by the store they were 800 meters away, with a glance at my card.

While his comment was funny [considering], his spirit of not wanting DayZ to turn CoD is something I agree with. If you want that kind of sniping and unbalance and unrealism then go play any other FPS.

Without changes like these to make sniping more difficult/realistic the realism of the survival aspect for the non-sniper will suffer.

TL;DR: I put time and thought into this. Don't like effort and earned accomplishment? Then this game isn't for you anyway. Read it, you'll probably learn some shit even if you don't agree with it.

P.S. Rocket, thanks so much for DayZ. I had all but given up on everything except ArmA/ACE until this came along. The environment and survival/scavenging portion of this post-collapse scenario has me hooked. I would still love to see what that article I read claimed was your original vision, basically DayZ w/o the zombies. I'd play both of them to death.

[Disgraced 1123]

I personally think that th more realism re: real firearms that can be introduced, the better. Especially when it comes to sniper rifles.

Good information.

[redfield-77 315]

Long as hell but I read it. :)

I love ARMA too and I wish they would use the ACE system if they are going to include military sniper rifles. I actually would prefer if they kept it to hunting rifles but if they insist than this is what it should be.

[Bogeyman 23]

As you realized yourself, your post was pretty lengthy. However I did read it all, and I wouldn't mind different levels of realism on different servers, along the lines you describe.

[That Guy (DayZ) 46]

I agree with everything you said, just have to make sure people have the option to use more realistic mechanics or not, as you said, because some people don't want to have to learn the works just to snipe a guy. Sniper elite is a good comparison on how I think sniping should be.

[nicebasi 37]

Really like youre post Cheboygan.

I hope so too ther will be something like ACE included.

Its way to easy to shoot at loong distance.

And btw when ther will be wind/weather and all,Rocket can increase the Viewdistance back to max. Cause Cherna is so damn bueautiful :D

[HaseDesTodes 315]

doing math to be a good sniper? sounds like a good way to get kids to do their homework...

beans for you, although i wouldnt agree that some equip should be more often, i have never seen a real rangefinder in a private household (or anywhere else)...

[Gulmari 19]

doing math to be a good sniper? sounds like a good way to get kids to do their homework...

beans for you, although i wouldnt agree that some equip should be more often, i have never seen a real rangefinder in a private household (or anywhere else)...

Many Bow and Rifle hunters use rangefinders. They can range anywhere from $150-$3000+. My Leupold RX-750 is a laser range finder that provides "ballistic range" as opposed to straight line range to a target up to 750 yards. I bought mine brand new from Cabela's for $230. With the abundance of deer stands you would expect to find civilian range finders all over the place. Then again you would expect to find more hunting rifles, bows, crossbows, shotguns etc in those deerstands and not M4s, M16s, AKs.

[wolfstriked 143]

But why more range finders?They don't fit the theme and they make sniping too easy so I see no reason to even keep them.And I posted before and I'll post again...there should be a weapon skill that goes up as you get kills.I mean I read that a rifle is rated say at 2MOA but most people will hit at 4 to 7MOA.So whats wrong with inducing some inaccuracy to Dayz that you can level up and get better MOA over time??

Could be quite a few skills that could be leveled over time like a survival skill that after a certain time you then get granted the white blurs on edges of screen.Its like being in the woods for so long you learn to notice movement in the edges of your view better.Another one would be swimming speed and could come into effect of their are some maps with large rivers etc.And of course stamina could get skilled if ever added.Sorry went off topic.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

I agree with everything you said, just have to make sure people have the option to use more realistic mechanics or not, as you said, because some people don't want to have to learn the works just to snipe a guy. Sniper elite is a good comparison on how I think sniping should be.

I think it could be a good thing, ther eis a reason that snipers are seen as being "one notch" over the regular grunt. THey can do things that the grunt cannot do.

[Gulmari 19]

But why more range finders?They don't fit the theme and they make sniping too easy so I see no reason to even keep them.And I posted before and I'll post again...there should be a weapon skill that goes up as you get kills.I mean I read that a rifle is rated say at 2MOA but most people will hit at 4 to 7MOA.So whats wrong with inducing some inaccuracy to Dayz that you can level up and get better MOA over time??

Could be quite a few skills that could be leveled over time like a survival skill that after a certain time you then get granted the white blurs on edges of screen.Its like being in the woods for so long you learn to notice movement in the edges of your view better.Another one would be swimming speed and could come into effect of their are some maps with large rivers etc.And of course stamina could get skilled if ever added.Sorry went off topic.

Rangefinders don't make hitting a target at 700yards eazymode IRL,

In the current game, in its current state, with only ONE set of rangefinders, then yes more rangefinders is stupid. If the system for "sniping" was changed to a more realistic style than more rangefinders wouldn't do much good to most people. They would know the distance to the target and thats it. They wouldn't be able to adjust for anything but distance....so no more "realistic" rangefinders wouldn't make it sniper ezmode if sniping changed in Dayz.

[bobda 11]

Wholeheartedly agree with this suggestion. Only the ones with the patience and skill to learn the weapon system should be the ones able to effectively use it. It would not only stop a lot of the "I just died and have no idea why" but add another skill set for players to have. Just like now there's usually one guy in a group who always pilots the chopper, I'd love to see a "designated marksmen/sniper" type player fill a role in a group.

I also see something like this making the "assault rifle" more valuable than it is now. Almost everybody drops their full auto for something with a long range scope. Most firefights under 200 meters look more like an American Revolution battle, than a modern day shootout.

[bazbake 456]

I really dig this. There is a lot of stuff in this game running on autopilot and it can be frustrating to newer players to find themselves prey to so many people who lack any actual skill.

Rocket said he wanted real-world abilities to apply to the game. The more realism the better, in every mechanic. Right now it's a kleptomaniac/OCD simulator with guns.

[xximrtwoixx 104]

Great post, "authenticity" for the win

I would venture to say that there aren't any "match" grade rifles in the game though, and all the military rifles are firing standard ball ammo so MOA at .25 would be to low IMO. I think the most accurate rifles would probably be the hunting rifles my 306 does >.25 out of a bench at 100 yards with a couple of different rounds and its not a match rifle.

[Josh225 129]

Read maybe just over a half of your post and being only 15 understood fairly little when you started detailing ballistics and how they work but all i can say is: You clearly put alot of effort and thought into that and beans are deserved.

[MrOinkerMoo 1]

https://i.canvasugc.com/ugc/original/90dfe213a9fd8adadc1d6112d8a6a2faf4607f77.gif

[Maks (DayZ) 14]

Brilliant post, amazing list of useful information both in game mechanics and real life. I am 100% all for adding all the improvements to the sniping and shooting mechanics altogether. This would give me a great learning curve to master and perfect the sniping from long range, it would also filter out those who clearly do not care for the fine art of shooting and stick to close combat.

Thank you for the great post, I've learned something by reading it also.

[Da_Reapa1 4]

i totally agree, i had an AS50 in cherno today and it was so easy to kill that it was just boring. I went in expecting the thrill of killing at close to med range, but didn't get it. I think that a long range sniper kill should be a difficult achievement, just like sneaking up on someone and gunning them down without losing your own head is.

[nigzy23 1]

I agree with your post, especially with the wind effecting the shot placement.

Hell, wind comes into play on ballstics after 100 metres; with 5.56x45mm anyway. At 400 metres you have to aim a full body left or right (Depending on wind direction) from the target you're hitting and that's if it's stationary.

Too many times has my poor little medic been hit by some round from miles away and put me into -25,000 blood.

What's even worse is that there is zero bullet drop on the Lee Enfield.

As with the training with sniper rifles, I think it could be 'easily' implimented as in being that when you first begin to use a weapon, any weapon (You could put them into categories in correlation to the round they fire) you shake as though you're in pain. The more zombies you kill or the more you use it, the less you shake. Indicating that you know the correct marksmanship principles for that selected weapon; could also seen as a balancing tool in prevention of random killing.

But in the standalone to be released game, I know this might sound 'cheesey', I would love to see classes implemented with little dynamic bonuses (Like those found in Killing floor, just not exactly like them), just like a medic would have faster bandaging, morphining etc...etc... times.

Really enjoyed reading your post Cheboygan, ballistic science has always been a favourite of mine from when I was back in the forces.

I just suppose that what we can experience is limited by Arma 2 itself, some major re-haul to the ballistics system would most probably come in the stand alone game.

[grylsyjaeger 171]

I agree it's too easy to snipe in this game.

I only had to give my mate a thirty second tutorial on how to range and adjust his sights and he's being getting so many long shots of late.

I'd love to be able to call on my real world knowledge and apply it in game to my advantage over others just like any survivor would.

[Mos1ey 6301]

Yeah, the sniping mechanic needs to be sorted out. Not only is shooting long distance too easy but you can run around quick scoping and unscoping as if it was CoD, lol. Shouldn't be possible in this game...

[Bobcomss 189]

Such a good read!!

I agree 10000000% with this, I used to be in the army using the SA80 at 100-500m on the range and its true about everything you said! I dont claim to know anything about the maths behind it or anything like that, but when you got a 10mph wind blowing across the range you know you cant just fire straight!!

Thank you for this! :D

AJ

[Xianyu 820]

Adding realistic sniping would change the dynamic of the game entirely. They'd be able to do away with the draw distance 'fog' that limits visibility. And a sniper would actually be a valuable asset then. Well, one who knew their shit would be.

I think all people who snipe in the game should have to do this. Why? Because then the 'easy mode' hilltop snipers would be completely ineffective. 'y my bullets no hit?! I QUIT!!!!!1111!!!!!1!1!!!'

And that would only ever be a good thing.

[Haplo (DayZ) 44]

Are you serious bro? You pulled off a 700 metre headshot while you were sprinting!?

I will always support any suggestion that simulates reality. To that extent, I'd love to see weapon maintenance become a crucial aspect of DayZ. It could use the same animation as setting up a fence I guess, but when right clicking the gun, there are two options; clean & deep clean. Obviously, deep clean should take longer. Lubricants would be be added to the loot too, but would have limited uses.

This again, would affect how well snipers can place their shots, but perhaps specialized ammo & lubricants could also be added to the loot table, providing a realistic (but very slight) buff to snipers.

Edit: I'd love to see poorly maintained guns jam up :P

Edited August 16, 2012 by Haplo

[derrida (DayZ) 18]

Are you serious bro? You pulled off a 700 metre headshot while you were sprinting!?

I think he meant "at" someone who's sprinting, not while sprinting himself.

Really great post. Rocket mentioned something recently about adding weapon maintenance/degradation. I hope they make sniper ballistics more realistic as well. Not just for the realism, it would make the gameplay a lot more fun as well.