The tactical significance of sniper rifles, accumulated rebuttals and why they're here to stay

[Heiduk 265]

I've made no secret of my intent to argue for their inclusion in the game. So, yes, my aim is to rebut arguments for their removal to the best of my ability.

Most people aren't arguing for the complete removal of sniper rifles. People are arguing for the removal of the .50 cals because as represented they have huge benefits and very few drawbacks. This is not authentic, in the real world they may have large benefits but they also have large drawbacks.

Atm a survivor in DayZ can carry a 14kg rifle + ~1.5kg per 10 rounds mag, 2kg axe, 5kg L85 + mags, ~1kg pistol + mag, food, water, medical supply and it left some room for a couple of 20l jerry can (or maybe some engine part?). With all of this, my char can run 10km, stop 1 min then get a perfect accuracy like nothing happen

I think this gets to the heart of one of the main issues. Sure adding stamina and inventory systems similar to the ACE2 mod would be the best solution, but until then removing the .50 cals would be reasonable. Although it isn't necessarily realistic carrying around a DMR+M4 (18 lbs without ammo) is at least plausible compared to a AS50+M4 (38 lbs without ammo).

Similarly, firing a DMR with reasonable accuracy from an unsupported standing position is plausible, firing an AS50 is not.

Support weapons like the DMR are also much more widely used than weapons like the AS50 so in-game abundance is easier to justify. In addition, sporting rifles with characteristics reasonably similar to DMR class weapons are common in rural areas, at least in the US. AS50s and M107s are really in a class by themselves.

The .50 cal sniper rifles are not represented in a plausible way in this game. This fundamentally alters the way people behave and if the goal is authenticity they should be removed or fixed.

[vile. 38]

Well said.

Have some beans.

[Bottlerocket 205]

"It takes "no skill" to sit in one spot and snipe."

That's so far away from the point I'm trying to make it might as well have been dreamed up by the Mars Curiosity Rover. In simple terms, I think, as per rocket's vision, DayZ should be a dark, brutal experience.

To my mind, sniper rifles negate this dark, brutal experience. Once you have one, much of the threat is gone from the game. It becomes 'sniper v sniper - with zombies!'. Not dark, not brutal - not cool at all.

And just to rebut the point you quoted anyway - even though it's got nothing to do with my argument - it's bogus.

The OP describes the 'skill' of sniping as though he is facing a similarly geared opponent (choice of sniping spot etc), when in reality, that's very rare.

Also: "Lastly, it actually does require a fair amount of skill to effectively snipe targets using these rifles. Unless the target presents at a fixed distance and remains stationary....."

A good point in real life, perhaps, or even in Left 4 Dead - where everyone learns to pogo around to put off hunters/smokers aim ...

Less relevant in a game where the hostile NPCs are triggered by movement and the best way to avoid them is to go prone and crawl.

Sorry, you're going to have to do much, much better than that to convince me.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Bottlerocket

[turdferguson (DayZ) 2]

Most people aren't arguing for the complete removal of sniper rifles. People are arguing for the removal of the .50 cals because as represented they have huge benefits and very few drawbacks. This is not authentic, in the real world they may have large benefits but they also have large drawbacks.

I think this gets to the heart of one of the main issues. Sure adding stamina and inventory systems similar to the ACE2 mod would be the best solution, but until then removing the .50 cals would be reasonable. Although it isn't necessarily realistic carrying around a DMR+M4 (18 lbs without ammo) is at least plausible compared to a AS50+M4 (38 lbs without ammo).

Similarly, firing a DMR with reasonable accuracy from an unsupported standing position is plausible, firing an AS50 is not.

Support weapons like the DMR are also much more widely used than weapons like the AS50 so in-game abundance is easier to justify. In addition, sporting rifles with characteristics reasonably similar to DMR class weapons are common in rural areas, at least in the US. AS50s and M107s are really in a class by themselves.

The .50 cal sniper rifles are not represented in a plausible way in this game. This fundamentally alters the way people behave and if the goal is authenticity they should be removed or fixed.

You do raise valid points, however, I think the .50s should stay in the game as long as disconnecting is as big of a problem as it is now. I like hunting people sniping from the hills north of elektro but unless you kill them with the first shot, they just disconnect. I would prefer using the DMR but it's just unrealistic to count on that. Also, nothing beats the .50 for anti-vehicular operations. I took out a truck, black SUV (hacked in I think), and a helicopter who was stupidly hovering over the coast shooting at noobs in elektro yesterday.

[llodka 4]

Once you work out that this is not a zombie survival game then all the points made by people for and agasint the proliferation of weapons in this game become obsolete. This is not a zombie survival simulation game that many of us at first thought might be.

Sorry OP, all your arguments and those of people who are with, or alligned against, you are irrelvant.

It's as simple as that really. Take the game for what it is - an excellent openworld pvp shooter.

[Heiduk 265]

I think the .50s should stay in the game as long as disconnecting is as big of a problem as it is now.

So should every weapon be upgraded to a one shot kill?

[turdferguson (DayZ) 2]

That's so far away from the point I'm trying to make it might as well have been dreamed up by the Mars Curiosity Rover. In simple terms, I think, as per rocket's vision, DayZ should be a dark, brutal experience.

To my mind, sniper rifles negate this dark, brutal experience. Once you have one, much of the threat is gone from the game. It becomes 'sniper v sniper - with zombies!'. Not dark, not brutal - not cool at all.

And just to rebut the point you quoted anyway - even though it's got nothing to do with my argument - it's bogus.

The OP describes the 'skill' of sniping as though he is facing a similarly geared opponent (choice of sniping spot etc), when in reality, that's very rare.

Also: "Lastly, it actually does require a fair amount of skill to effectively snipe targets using these rifles. Unless the target presents at a fixed distance and remains stationary....."

A good point in real life, perhaps, or even in Left 4 Dead - where everyone learns to pogo around to put off hunters/smokers aim ...

Less relevant in a game where the hostile NPCs are triggered by movement and the best way to avoid them is to go prone and crawl.

Sorry, you're going to have to do much, much better than that to convince me.

I can tell you're pretty new at this game, but that's okay.

It is very easy to take out snipers on the hills of elektro. Just go on the hill by drakon, on the east side of it, then wait to hear sniper rifles go off. Carry a weapon you can kill quickly with, as snipers will disconnect unless you hit them fast enough (I like the enfield and AKM for this, both are very easy to find.)

To avoid snipers when you aren't trying to kill them, NEVER stay still in the open. Don't try to avoid zombies, just lure them into buildings to kill them or try losing them. It is EXTREMELY difficult to hit a moving target unless they are going directly at you or away from you. As in, impossible, unless the sniper is very good at leading the target and accounting for the horrible lag.

I am speaking all from experience. I go hunting snipers in the hills every day and by the end of the day my team of 2-3 always ends up with AS50s and M4 SDs when all we started with was Enfields. It is not hard to kill snipers or to just avoid them. It's noobs that can't figure out how to play this game correctly who keep complaing about how "overpowered" a gun is.

[turdferguson (DayZ) 2]

So should every weapon be upgraded to a one shot kill?

I really would like that a lot, actually. Within 100m, everything but the pistols should be one shot to go to unconscious, two to kill. Within 100 meters, even M855 5.56 NATO has reliable fragmentation and will fuck you up.

[xfortune 91]

I read the OPs post - and not once does he address my main complaint about sniper rifles - they make the game too easy.

This is supposed to be set in, as my sig suggests, a horrible, brutal world. Sniper rifles take you out of that world and give you an easy mode where you can engage just about any target with little fear of risk.

The OP talks about having 'teams on overwatch' armed with sniper rifles while they go looting. How's that scenario brutal for those on the team? Short of coming up against a similarly outfitted group - and that's much rarer than these forums would suggest - there is no challenge being presented to anyone on that team by DayZ.

The snipers are safe in their little bubbles, far away from the action, while the looters have an unbeatable god backing them up who can lightning bolt anyone who gets too close. It's easy mode - and that's why they have to go, IMHO.

Imagine, if you will, that same scenario - only everyone armed with shotguns and AKs. They could never be sure that a threat could come from anywhere. Even coming across one survivor with a shotgun would be dangerous.

How much more tense would that be for the team of looters? How much more in the spirit of DayZ's avowedly brutal style of play?

"But ... tactical gameplay!" I hear you cry. But that's not DayZ, I reply. Tactics can play a part yes, but I don't think that we should have crack commando teams running around in a post-apocalyptic scenario where everyone is just trying to survive.

There is a game that uses DayZ's weapons - and engine - which does this sort of thing much, much better. The game you are looking for is called ArmaII. You should try it.

Clearly you haven't ever sniped or had sniper overwatch. It is very far from being "safe in a bubble" and certainly doesn't feel like you're an "unbeatable god". Every time you shoot, you broadcast your general location to everyone within 800m. Yesterday alone, I had 3 people trying to flank me while I was on overwatch, and 3-4 snipers take shots at me. Luckily I have a good spotter and a good knowledge of the area so I didn't die.

[Bottlerocket 205]

I can tell you're pretty new at this game, but that's okay.

It is very easy to take out snipers on the hills of elektro. Just go on the hill by drakon, on the east side of it, then wait to hear sniper rifles go off. Carry a weapon you can kill quickly with, as snipers will disconnect unless you hit them fast enough (I like the enfield and AKM for this, both are very easy to find.)

To avoid snipers when you aren't trying to kill them, NEVER stay still in the open. Don't try to avoid zombies, just lure them into buildings to kill them or try losing them. It is EXTREMELY difficult to hit a moving target unless they are going directly at you or away from you. As in, impossible, unless the sniper is very good at leading the target and accounting for the horrible lag.

I am speaking all from experience. I go hunting snipers in the hills every day and by the end of the day my team of 2-3 always ends up with AS50s and M4 SDs when all we started with was Enfields. It is not hard to kill snipers or to just avoid them. It's noobs that can't figure out how to play this game correctly who keep complaing about how "overpowered" a gun is.

Dear me, you're just not very bright, are you?

Try reading my post - or better yet, get someone to read it for you - and then address the points in it. I'm not really bothered about avoiding snipers, killing snipers, tickling snipers, dropping my backpack in front of them and having a boogie...

I don't care about sniper rifles being 'overpowered'. Every gun in this game will kill you far faster than any other FPS - and that's just great in my book. Fits right in with what I want DayZ to be.

I'm bothered about the fact that once you have a sniper rifle, you are effectively removed from the 'dark brutal world' the dev's are striving to create.

I want survivors fighting in the mud with hatchets over a can of beans, while a zombie horde approaches to tear their livers out and devour them before the survivors still-seeing eyes .....

I want running battles in the streets, where Cherno and Electro ring with the rattle of the AK and the pop of the Makarov.

That's the fate I want - and I don't want anyone to be able to log into this game and escape it by sitting on a hill 800 metres away taking pot shots at people, pausing to drink a coke and eat a steak, and then getting right back to it.

To me - that's easy mode.

[Banicks 55]

Sniper Rifles are purely banditry weapons. Infact, all non-silence weapons are IMO bandit/anti-human weapons.

There is too much risk to pop a zombie with a high powered-high noise making rifle unless the sniper is in a team and prepared to decoy.

I'm happy to retain the sniper rifles in DayZ - but I would like some more weapons with medium range scopes (acogs and so on).

The greatest issue I have is that flares need to destroy the NVG advantage that bandits have. This game is supposedly basing itself off realism, yet a flare IRL will destroy the advatange of NVGs. Effectively allowing a player under fire to pop a flare and effect an escape whilst the sniper/s have to readjust their vision - much like a flashbang.

[Bottlerocket 205]

Clearly you haven't ever sniped or had sniper overwatch. It is very far from being "safe in a bubble" and certainly doesn't feel like you're an "unbeatable god". Every time you shoot, you broadcast your general location to everyone within 800m. Yesterday alone, I had 3 people trying to flank me while I was on overwatch, and 3-4 snipers take shots at me. Luckily I have a good spotter and a good knowledge of the area so I didn't die.

I'll note that you survived this 'dark, brutal' encounter unscathed. Sounds pretty safe to me.

[turdferguson (DayZ) 2]

Dear me, you're just not very bright, are you?

Try reading my post - or better yet, get someone to read it for you - and then address the points in it. I'm not really bothered about avoiding snipers, killing snipers, tickling snipers, dropping my backpack in front of them and having a boogie...

I don't care about sniper rifles being 'overpowered'. Every gun in this game will kill you far faster than any other FPS - and that's just great in my book. Fits right in with what I want DayZ to be.

I'm bothered about the fact that once you have a sniper rifle, you are effectively removed from the 'dark brutal world' the dev's are striving to create.

I want survivors fighting in the mud with hatchets over a can of beans, while a zombie horde approaches to tear their livers out and devour them before the survivors still-seeing eyes .....

I want running battles in the streets, where Cherno and Electro ring with the rattle of the AK and the pop of the Makarov.

That's the fate I want - and I don't want anyone to be able to log into this game and escape it by sitting on a hill 800 metres away taking pot shots at people, pausing to drink a coke and eat a steak, and then getting right back to it.

To me - that's easy mode.

Wow, I think you are trolling. I just talked about how easy it is to kill snipers and you just talked about them taking pot shots from 800m away in safety (which is false.) You are either just trolling or one of those people who will never change their opinion no matter how wrong you are (like a politician.)

If you want the "dark, brutal game" that is solely YOUR image of the game you want and not the community's or Rocket's, removing .50 cals won't stop anything. Removing duping and hackers will fix all. Stop trying to put the blame on the guns.

[hawken 22]

I love you

[xfortune 91]

I'll note that you survived this 'dark, brutal' encounter unscathed. Sounds pretty safe to me.

I survived because of excellent teamwork, experience, and a good amount of luck.

Besides, shouldn't people want to be safe? Isn't that why you look for weapons, med supplies, etc.? Being as safe as possible means you survive longer, which is the point, isn't it?

The greatest issue I have is that flares need to destroy the NVG advantage that bandits have. This game is supposedly basing itself off realism, yet a flare IRL will destroy the advatange of NVGs. Effectively allowing a player under fire to pop a flare and effect an escape whilst the sniper/s have to readjust their vision - much like a flashbang.

They do. Flares make it nearly impossible to see into the area with NVGs, and it takes 10+ seconds for your eyes to adjust to be able to see somewhat after taking them off, and another 10 before you're back to normal.

[slonlo 43]

Here's the thing sport; No one fucking cares what YOU WANT, and your own personal shitty desires can't be involved in a debate since there's no way to rebut them other than to give you the lobotomy you need.

Now now... if he wants that let him have it. He can take his hatchet and run at the nearest survivor screaming obscenities if that's the game he wants. Meanwhile xFortune (or any other sniper) will be patiently waiting with rifle in hand for him to stop to eat those beans... because it sounds like that's the game HE wants. And I'll be toting my AK, 1911, and ducking in bushes to avoid them both.

For THIS is what Rocket has decreed. It is YOUR game. Play it how you wish.

Edited August 8, 2012 by slonlo

[Bottlerocket 205]

If you want the "dark, brutal game" that is solely YOUR image of the game you want and not the community's or Rocket's,

Have you read my sig? Ach, I forgot, you struggle with the whole 'reading' thing.

Look, lovey - I appreciate your efforts killing snipers, and all, but perhaps you should run along now.

[gizm0 96]

Does anyone have an issue with increasing sniper and LMGs to 15 units of space thus an authentic and logical change without overly hindering those whom already use both a backup and one of the two heavier weapons. I won't say it doesn't hinder them because it will but not to the point where their gameplay will be discouraged or hurt.

[Erik (DayZ) 61]

I was wondering when a proper one of these threads would show up.

I totaly agree with pretty much everything OP said. I do however also understand the anonyance of snipers at its moments though.

[Heiduk 265]

I really would like that a lot, actually. Within 100m, everything but the pistols should be one shot to go to unconscious, two to kill. Within 100 meters, even M855 5.56 NATO has reliable fragmentation and will fuck you up.

Fair enough, I actually wouldn't mind if all the weapons were much better at making players combat ineffective either.

Here's the thing sport; No one fucking cares what YOU WANT, and your own personal shitty desires can't be involved in a debate since there's no way to rebut them other than to give you the lobotomy you need.

Um, you do know that this exact same argument can be applied to the original post in this thread, as well as most of the others?

As has been noted repeatedly, this is ultimately a design decision that only the developers can make based on what they want the game to be. Some of us have made a best guess at what the developers design goals are based on their public statements and tried to argue that current mechanics do or do not support these goals but these are still just our opinions. To say that personal desires and opinions don't have a place in the debate seems to be missing the point.

[Bottlerocket 205]

I survived because of excellent teamwork, experience, and a good amount of luck. Being 800 metres away from the action didn't hurt, either.

Besides, shouldn't people want to be safe? Isn't that why you look for weapons, med supplies, etc.? Being as far away as possible means you survive longer, which is the point, isn't it?

fixed that for you, brah.

[matingmoose 0]

Regarding the useless against zombies argument.

If every weapon in the game was intended to kill zombies then there would be absolutely no reason to have any weapon that deals over 4500 blood in a hit. The reason guns like this exist in the game is for killing people, so if you want to just kill zombies and survive get a Remmington/M1014, Winchester , Silenced MP5, or a pistol of some sort and go nuts in Zelengrosk or whatever.

[opczar 0]

I'm ok with sniper rifles being in the game. I just hope that zombies don't just spontaneously spawn in the standalone game when someone enters a city. It makes it too easy for snipers.

[yorkie065 78]

The OP talks about having 'teams on overwatch' armed with sniper rifles while they go looting. How's that scenario brutal for those on the team?

Imagine, if you will, that same scenario - only everyone armed with shotguns and AKs. They could never be sure that a threat could come from anywhere. Even coming across one survivor with a shotgun would be dangerous.

"But ... tactical gameplay!" I hear you cry. But that's not DayZ, I reply. Tactics can play a part yes, but I don't think that we should have crack commando teams running around in a post-apocalyptic scenario where everyone is just trying to survive.

Ok, so let me raise a few points about this post.

The first 2 parts I can answer together; even a sniper, isn't "safe" in their bubble. You know this is a vast open world right? There is NO set direction that a player can approach a certain location from. Therefore, it is not safe! A pair of snipers could be sat in their little hole, providing over watch for their group, or just sat there watching a town and anyone at any time can just walk right up behind them without either side knowing and stumble on their position. And this has actually happened to me and my buddy once, and you know what. We died because of it!

If those snipers providing over-watch get taken out, imagine the panic for those in the town looting. Their cover has gone! They have no solid location of the enemy other than they're either in the region of the over-watching team, or else where and counter sniped them. Because you yourself has been on the receiving end of snipers, doesn't mean that events that can occur at the other end of the scale don't happen. They do! And when they do....everyone shits themselves!! Guys no longer have cover! They no longer have information about other plays coming in or out, player positions or zombie positions that may be a threat.

As for the tactical aspect; you give the impression you have little tactical knowledge. Even without sniper rifles being there, either I myself, or a couple of my mates will be assigned to stay back and do the snipers job with a winchester or AK. They may not have the range, but they still have the information and knowledge that others down in the city do not. Remember, knowledge is the most powerful weapon in the game. Theres no point having a gun, and not knowing where a players position is. Your hopeless and have very few options and chance or survival. Where-as knowing where a player is, with no weapon has greater chance of survial and more options.

The way I play DayZ is the way I would act if I was in the world myself with my friends. Using tactics, and thinking about what your going to do before going into a town and doing it, is by far more effective than just doing it all on the fly. About 80% of my kills on other players, have been due to those who i've killed showing and using very little to no tactical awareness. The other 20% have either been them getting the drop on me and me killing them before they get me, or them just getting unlucky and me and my team coming across them. If you play like each life is your last, you and your group are going to have a much better chance of surviving than hauling ass around the place trying to get quick loot.

[reuben5150 83]

Work very well to accomplish what?

Neato!

I'll just leave you to think about that, and the rest.