The tactical significance of sniper rifles, accumulated rebuttals and why they're here to stay

[bazbake 456]

The OP is not talking about 'real world' ballastics.

Why not? The CZ550 is easier to find than the M1014 but it does more damage with greater accuracy from 10 times as far away. So we're clearly not concerned about game balance. So what else is there?

"We're not talking about realism."

Good, because it's not realistic.

"We're not talking about game balance either."

Good, because it's overpowered compared to what it...wait, what are we talking about?

"We're just saying that sniper rifles are awesome and we want to keep them in the game because they make us feel awesome."

...That's...not an argument. That's just people talking about how much they like a gun. And of course they like the gun...it's overpowered. If they added a tactical nuke to the game, people using it would enjoy it too. If they added ray guns to the game that go through walls, people would love those too. It wouldn't make the idea of realism and game balance any less ridiculous, though.

[amudkipz 46]

I'd like to make a community effort to shoot on sight anyone with a sniper rifle that isn't holstered below zelenogorosk. Having the rifle is fine, but we all know what your doing if it's not slung on your shoulder or shooting a zombie thats chasing you. This would not include semi-auto rifles though.

Edited August 7, 2012 by amudkipz

[Konrad010 6]

ZedsDeadBaby:

Excellent post! I agree with you completely: sniper rifles should remain in the game.

I appreciate your thoughtfulness on the subject - your bring up fantastic points and provide serious analysis. Enjoy this can of beans!

[LawsOfFire 21]

Here's a good rule of thumb-

No sniper rifle should be OHK unless it's a headshot or fired at very close range.

Also 50cal should have low firing rate and low magazine capacity.

This isn't arma anymore and it's not " real life ", the above rules work very well.

well there are many other places where instakill other than head. shoot them in the heart,lungs,neck,back

therefore. everything higher than middle of body should be 1shot

Edited August 7, 2012 by LawsOfFire

[hawkidoki 56]

@ZedsDeadBaby AS50 should be removed. Sniper is for pussies, Sniper with termal vision is cheated.

Stop arging, just facts...

[hombrecz 832]

There are no effective counter-measures against snipers.

This is one of the most baffling arguments I have seen levied against sniper rifles as they themselves are their own counter measure.

If you suspect a sniper might be in the area, or you just want to double check to be sure - assign a counter sniping team to scout the area using appropriate optics and engage any targets using sniper rifles. If a sniper can see you to fire, you can see him to fire back. It's all a matter of who is more aware and who has the better sight picture (see above re: skill involved in sniping).

So now everybody is expected to run in gang of 5+ people, all armed with mixture of AS50 + L85 Thermal,to actively counter act snipers? Sorry, but I had to laugh at this "argument".

I'm not saying sniper rifles should be removed, we would just need duping and ammo exploits to be removed (guess we will have to wait for standalone), and probably only then we can trully judge most of weapons.

Sniper with AS50 should COUNT his bullets, think twice before spending any of them unlike today, where everybody and their mum has duped 50 cal with bag full of ammo and happily sprays every poor soul he happens to see from his bushwookie hiding place.

edit: yea I know that you have basically written the same reg. duping & rarity.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Hombre

[bazbake 456]

well there are many other places where instakill other than head. shoot them in the heart,lungs,neck,back

therefore. everything higher than middle of body should be 1shot

I cannot overstate this enough. The only way to kill someone with one shot without them turning around and putting a bullet in you is to hit the medulla oblangata at the base of the brain. This disables the target completely and kills them.

It's the size of a thumb.

Anywhere else may cause someone to pass out from pain. It may bleed them out in less than a minute. Combining both of these may be enough to kill someone with one shot eventually, over time, if they don't get help. But the only way to kill someone instantly and guarantee that they don't turn around and shoot you right back is to hit a target the size of your thumb located at the base of the human skull paralyzing the human organs and stopping involuntary reflexes.

And guess what, we have game mechanics for bleeding and unconsciousness, which means there's no reason for any weapon smaller than a shotgun shell (which includes...oh, that's right, every gun that is not a shotgun) to guarantee death with a shot to the head.

This whole mindset of arcadifying the weapons in the game has trivialized PvP and turned it into team deathmatch because people die a lot more easily from weapons from a lot farther away than they would in real life.

1. It's unrealistic.
   
2. It's unbalanced.
   
3. It's uninteresting.
   

People should have to make serious choices between range, stopping power, and fire rate. Right now they just grab the sniper rifle, hide in the trees, and shoot people in one hit. But they shouldn't be guaranteed a kill at that range. They should be forced to choose between a gun that gives them a guaranteed kill at point blank or a gun that gives them, at best, a possible kill and disabling at 1.5 km. Like the real world.

Edited August 7, 2012 by BazBake

[gizm0 96]

Your only argument against 50.cals being in the game is that they are 1 Shot kills which is fucking dumb. Urals, VS3 become tanks if you take out 50.cals. Helicopters fly around free with out 50cals.

I call bullshit, you know why, because I've played a quite a bit of normal arma 2 and vehicles are quite easy to immoblize with basic assault weapons, and Tatics.

I say if we are gonna have 50. cal weapons give us some abandoned armor since why the hell not.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Orthus

[blaaarg 8]

I don't have any problem with scoped rifle, it's the .50cal and / or zeroing.

Play ArmA2 from month 1, know chernarus better than the town i live in and can hit a standing target with a DMR between 200 & 800m w/o rangefinder every single time. I know by heart ~20 range & elevation from "sniper" nest around the map but... nothing incredible : I"m not a skilled player, i trained a lot, failed a lot but if you have the dedication it's far from being impossible. No skill requied, only training. I almost never get killed by sniper exept when raiding ennemy camp, don't have any difficulty to avoid or find em in or outside a town most of the time => .50cal & their user don't make me angry and i don't even bother to loot when i kill a bush wookie if i don't need water or food. (again, you only need self discipline & map knowledge to counter most of dayZ "snipers".)

.50, especially the AS50 are too easy to use and to carry. You don't need to be as close as a DMR / M24 to hit your target because you got an extended range / better balistic, and you always get a kill if you hit. Zeroing give the ability to people who started to play ArmA2 with DayZ to hit a target 1km away with minimum to no training. Also, .50cal are too easy to carry. They fit in your backpack and allow you to bring another weapon for close range, there is no penalty to gear an heavy, highly specialized weapon.

"8k dmg" scoped weapon are fine since you have to be closer, bullet have a longer fly time and it do not one shot even if the result is almost the same atm. We have the choice between fast semi-auto w/o zeroing (SVD / DMR) or slow bolt with zeroing (cz550, M24) : in one hand some close range capability, in the other easier long range shot but almost useless in close range (at least on "no crosshair serv)

I don't care about Alt+F4 since we get a 5min coma in shock state (my target is gone, kill or not it's not a threat anymore & not in the server anymore). Sure, i often don't get the kill (and loot) with 7.62 sniper bec of alt+F4 but i don't care about the stats and and only need food, water and something equal or better than a lee enfield.

Snipers are here to stay, i'm ok with that. "8k dmg" scoped weapons are fine since you have to get closer to get good results, M107 too i guess because of the low loot % (ofc there is dupe atm, but it will be fixed) and because you have to rely on mildot but as50... is just a point & clic weapon.

Edited August 7, 2012 by OuicheLorraine

[oZiix 45]

In the real world, sniper rifles aren't one-shot/one-kills and shooting people from closer away with a rifle as opposed to farther away causes less damage, not more. If I sneak up on you and you spin and pop me with a sniper rifle, that gun overpenetrates. That means it makes a tiny hole and then goes through the wall without stopping.

If sniper rifles were as deadly as the gamers in DayZ think they are, the military would use nothing but sniper rifles. Instead, there are only a few hundred snipers in the entire US military and they're mostly used for reconnaissance.

You can't argue realism in one breath and then game balance in the other breath when sniper rifles are neither balanced nor realistic in this game.

Let me emphasize this for people who still refuse to acknowledge it.

Your belief that sniper rifles should kill in one hit comes from VIDEOGAMES AND MOVIES. You are basing your entire defense, reliance, and beliefs about the weapons on works of fiction. The only rifles that should even be close to one-shot/one-kills are the .50 caliber weapons. The others are standard NATO rounds (they can barely stop someone in the first place, that's why modern weapons shoot 3-6 of them in a volley...because one isn't enough!) and 7.62s, which still do less damage than pistols.

The reason people are annoyed at sniper rifles is because the other weapons do less damage and no one seems to know how guns work!

"BULLETS! HOW DO THEY WORK!"

If the game treated sniper rifles and pistols and shotguns like they work in real life, no one would give a crap about anything smaller than a .50 caliber. You'd sit in a nest adjusting for windage, eventually get a shot on a moving target, and he'd go down. And then he'd get back up and you'd get another shot off if you're lucky and he'd go back down. And then he'd get up and you'd get another shot off and he'd go back down.

Then he'd turn around, fire about 15 bullets in your direction and ruin your day right quick.

Eventually you'd be like, "Screw this," grab a double-barrel shotgun, a weapon with some REAL stopping power, and chase him down.

Or maybe next time you'd move it out to the tree line where he can't shoot back at you because THAT'S WHAT SNIPER RIFLES ARE FOR. Sending normal-sized rounds with normal-sized damage really, really far so no one can shoot back. They're not for shooting magical disintegrating lasers PEW PEW style a mile away. They're for increased engagement range favoring penetration INSTEAD OF stopping power. Sniper rifles aren't designed to kill in one hit, they're designed to wound in one hit from really far away.

That's real talk.

P.S.

Your knowledge of guns is bad. Your argument is bad. You should feel bad. (But not too bad, don't kill yourself or anything, just sulk in the corner for a while.)

Obviously a knowledgable guy probably speaking from experience. It still can't be applied to this thread cause OP said its not about realism.

Your argument is bad because your trying to infuse realism into a thread not about realism. What you are playing in DayZ is an interpretation of Rockets idea of a Zombie apocalypse, weapon damage and all. What your arguing opens the door for characters should shit and also not have infinite stamina. Also no one can run around with a 50. Cal at the low ready for hours on end. Even though your post was informative it is still a straw man argument. You took one aspect of the OP and beat it to death with a counter argument which still doesnt even address the op in his counter to people arguing to take out sniper rifles.

All you basically said was your point about realism is wrong in terms of sniper rifles here is why blah blah blah.

You just sat on the fence of the argument and picked at one thing so you could attempt to impress with your knowledge of guns. In the end you added nothing except something to confuse the direction of the thread.

Are for or against 50.cals being in the game and why? Who gives a shit about your knowledge about what snipers are designed for and what size hole they leave in someone at point blank. I can google that shit.

[TheMachine 803]

While I agree with everything you said, .50 cals should be removed until the standalone version.

Take some of the insta-kill power away from hackers.

EDIT- I know hackers can and do spawn in any weapon, but generally they stick to 'official' dayz loadouts to make it less obvious.

Edited August 7, 2012 by TheMachine

[Rono 56]

BazBake please tell me that your internet access is very limited and shortly you will never be able to access it and spread your stupidity again.

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

So now everybody is expected to run in gang of 5+ people, all armed with mixture of AS50 + L85 Thermal,to actively counter act snipers? Sorry, but I had to laugh at this "argument".

You do not need 5+ people, nor need you equip everyone with these weapons. In fact you would be severely limiting the versatility and effectiveness of your squad by equipping them all with the same loadout.

It only requires a single L85 for spotting and a single rifle if you care to engage the targets. Both of these can be on the same player if you are squeezed for man power but a two-man sniper team is ideal for simultaneous spotting and firing.

If you're not interested in engaging the targets, spotting them is usually enough to avoid their sight line and vacate the area safely as per my tips in the OP. You don't actually need to kill a sniper to survive an encounter with one.

I cannot overstate this enough. The only way to kill someone with one shot without them turning around and putting a bullet in you is to hit the medulla oblangata at the base of the brain. This disables the target completely and kills them.

It's the size of a thumb.

Overstate it all you want, it is ridiculous. A .50 caliber round in your sternum, heart, spine, anywhere above the shoulders, or in your stomach would result in immediate and irreparable trauma. You would not be able to "get help" nor would you be in a condition to "turn around" let alone "put a bullet" in anything.

We can spare the thread links to images of the effect of .50 caliber rounds on human bodies, but I can't entertain with any degree of serious discussion the notion that a "hit to the medula oblangata" is the only surefire kill.

If you want to pick nits between an "instant kill" and bleeding to death in ~8 seconds from a catastrophic wound, fine. I will concede that it would be more realistic if a .50 caliber round in the chest knocked you down and gave you about the time it takes you to realize what happened before you actually die, but what difference does that make in game play terms?

If you really think a human is going to absorb a .50 caliber round center mass and come away in anything but a body bag, let alone turning around guns blazing, we're probably not going to have a very productive discussion moving forward about "realism" or anything else.

[ward 8]

Are you kidding me? What universe do you live in that a man can get hit, REPEATEDLY, with a 5.56 or 7.62 and can turn around and effectively return fire? At the very least, and this is if you're wearing the correct body armor and it happens to catch the round, it's going to knock you on your ass, at the very least.

Instant kill? No, no one's arguing that. But they shouldn't be able to take a rifle shot to the chest/back and be able to turn around and put rounds downrange like nothing happened.

[GodOfGrain 191]

Very good argumentation, totally agree.

Only thing: I'd pledge to remove .50 cals since they require next to no skill to hit a target.

E.g. if you have a target standing at 400m you can zero to 300 or 500m and you will still land a deadly shot.

DayZ doesn't have to be balanced - but that is just too easy. 'Skill-required' should play a factor in the game design.

But OK, DayZ has a lot of things to "balance" a weapon: Sound (Player / Zombies), Weapon rarity, Ammo rarity, Space used.

If an AS50 is: Rare. Loud. Rare ammo. No backpack while carrying this weapon.

Then: No problem. You can include any weapons in this mod.

(Currently: Not rare, not loud, not much space required)

Edited August 7, 2012 by GodOfGrain

[novac3721 15]

Lets assume for a second that most players don't have thermal optics. How can they defend themselves against snipers? Well they can check the most common spots up close, but any smart sniper will know more discrete locations. They can scan the area with sniper scopes and binoculars, but lets be honest, at 500m +, a ghillie sniper could easily be missed depending on the foliage. At night, there is nothing anyone not using NVGs or rangefinders can do against snipers, and since they are ''rare'' most people probably don't have them.

Now where to snipers like to be? I can think of a few.

-anywhere in a big city

-stary sobor military tents

-NW airfield

-balota airfield

-heli crash sites

What do these places have in common? They spawn good loot. Now why can't people just avoid them? Because the game doesn't work that way. You want the M4 CCO SD, you want the NVGs, the AS50, the ghillie suits, etc...

No one is satisfied with their AKS-74, M1911 and ALICE pack, and they shouldn't be, looking for better gear drives this game forward.

What else do these places have in common? They are exposed. In the city there are any number of places a sniper can hide, especially if they use 3rd person to look over ledges. Airfields have ATCs, hangars and barracks, all places with exposed one way in one way out areas.

Heli crashes have almost 360 degrees of danger.

What we have is a situation where snipers have places people are guaranteed to be that are super exposed, and that even a decently geared group (2-4 people with AKs and and m24s for example) have little way to avoid deaths going for better gear.

I never saw a L85 before I started to play with a group of 10+ people. I have yet to find one myself, it's the only practical way to counter a sniper at distances of over 500 meters. Without stealth the sniper is nothing, but with stealth the sniper is everything.

I see it as an all-or-nothing play style, except in most situations the sniper has it all, and only in a few does he have nothing.

I would make snipers and the ammo for them much rarer than they are now, I have found 20+ DMR mags in the last day alone.

Even with 50% miss rate that amount of ammo would last two snipers until their own deaths, with ammo to spare.

People have mentioned duping 50cal ammo and things like that, but if people couldn't use the m107 they would use the DMR or m24, to nearly the same effect. Nothing anyone can do about it while duping is in the game, but I think the spawn chances of sniper rifles should be reduced to that of the L85, since the two weapons classes balance each other out so well.

Just an idea.

[GodOfGrain 191]

Ah and some sniper-gameplay related stuff:

I have been sniped twice in over two months of DayZ

One time in an open firefight group vs group, one time because i was more or less afk

Like OP stated: If you get sniped often YOU are doing something wrong.

I have seen so many people (through my scope) crawling around in cities.

As if they would have all time in the world. They think they play safe as they avoid zombies.

But zombies are not the danger. Standing / sitting / being prone is the the danger.

I think I could loot the tents at stary while a DMR on the hill keeps firing on me. KEEP RUNNING

80% of those snipers in DayZ don't know what they are doing.

[ixtilion 39]

About the OHK, you say that in Close range they are unbalanced. Well, when a sniper is in closs range he will just pull a M249 or AR out of his backpack and everything is ok.

OHK in this game are stupid

[Charles Darwin (DayZ) 11]

ixtillion: I carry an AS50 in my pack and an m4cco sd in my hands until i am in my sniping spot. this means i have almost no room in my pack after you consider that:

1. i need to carry enough food/water to stay in a spot for a few hours w/o leaving.

2. I need to carry two types of primary ammo and enough to be effective w/o switching them(you can't switch under fire unless you want to die)

3. my hides usually mean that my own ability to spot people around me is obscured significantly.

4. if i do find anything large of use I must return to a camp in order to drop off my gun first

if you are constantly getting killed by snipers you are doing something wrong.

I watch helo crashes, especially ones with nice gear that can be spotted from a distance (ammo cans for examples). If you approach a helo with out camping out and looking for snipers you are doing it wrong.

I watch gas stations that i would use to gas up vehicles. if you drive straight into a gas station with out dismounting and checking out the area first, youre doing it wrong.

I rarely camp the most obvious one of the NWAF..why? too obvious, people who go to the AF because too often there the people are doing it right.

the biggest mistake people make when they are shot by a sniper is they stand still too long, a sniper shot in arma unlike in most FPS is not instant you have to correct for movement, distance, even wind(which right now in dayz isn't a huge deal but at distances of 3-400 can still make a difference) the more variables you can remove the better, so any sniper will wait for a stationary target. the only exception this would be a target moving either straight to or away from you, but this is where the zig zag pattern comes in.

one thing people who often complain about sniper rifles forget is that, like i said before, snipers have to get food and water too, this requires us to move out of our blinds and down into towns and watering holes. Add this that most snipers have two primary weapons and our ability to store large amounts of food/water is non-existent making these trips more frequent. When we make these trips we are then vulnerable to other snipers and players.

like other people have said it's not like snipers are some magic class who has omfgwtf powers, we have to play the game too, it just seems like theyre omfgwtf powers because you are playing the game with out patience or forethought.

[Aerna 0]

What else do these places have in common? They are exposed. In the city there are any number of places a sniper can hide, especially if they use 3rd person to look over ledges. Airfields have ATCs, hangars and barracks, all places with exposed one way in one way out areas.

Heli crashes have almost 360 degrees of danger.

Cities like Elektro and Cherno are not very exposed. I spend quite a lot of time in Elektro (or occasionaly Cherno) whether tracking down players (or snipers) or searching for loot. I have been killed by a sniper once. I was killed because i made a bad decision.

If you move quickly between building, loosing cover only when absolutely necessary, don't make obvious mistakes (like going in the open just after shooting a few Z's) you will rarely (if ever) get killed by a sniper in Cherno and Elektro. You are much more likely to get killed by a player with a lee enfield or an ak instead.

[novac3721 15]

Cities like Elektro and Cherno are not very exposed. I spend quite a lot of time in Elektro (or occasionaly Cherno) whether tracking down players (or snipers) or searching for loot. I have been killed by a sniper once. I was killed because i made a bad decision.

If you move quickly between building, loosing cover only when absolutely necessary, don't make obvious mistakes (like going in the open just after shooting a few Z's) you will rarely (if ever) get killed by a sniper in Cherno and Elektro. You are much more likely to get killed by a player with a lee enfield or an ak instead.

I also never got killed by sniper in a city, however, all the rooftops you can abuse 3rd person to watch the whole area from could make them spots for inexperienced snipers, and at 100m they don't need much practice.

[Belricks 6]

While i enjoyed the logic and the effort to debate the pro sniper arguement by the OP I also found him to be extremely incorrect.

Here are the pertinent facts as i see it.

1. Firstly, there is no indication that rocket is going to ever fix item duplication. Wrong game engine. Which means that not only are sniper rifles incredibly common they will almost certainly remain that way.

2. Snipering is easy mode. Point and click. What skill have i left out? Hitting moving targets? Yep that takes skill, but sooner or later everyone has to go still for a moment then its BAM.

3. Noobies are disproportionaly effected by snipers because they spawn in a narrow area for one.

4. Versus any other weapon players stand something of a chance, can shoot back for example even a pistol vs. a rifle.

5. Counter sniping is ok, its not the answer. Because coutner snipers cannot cover all the locations that snipers will be in, most snipers in fact only focus on a narrow target band just for this reason. Also seen plenty of videos of counter snipers being sniped themselves or shooting unarmed noobs while they watch out for snipers. They too are part of the issue.

Now i know this isnt a game per see, its really just a proof of concept thats succeeded exceptionally that will hopefully lead onto the proper game itself built on a mplayer engine thats actually up to the task. But Rocket is still likely looking at what makes this game so appealling to the majority.

I would suggest to him that a person hidden 1km with a one shot 50cal rifle sniping noobs is counter fun.

[Vellarain 73]

OP I love you.

[gizm0 96]

Excellent read.

It all comes down to efficiency! The AS50/M107 are the most efficient sniper rifles in the game. That is why people prefer them.

The next tier down of sniper rifles do 8000 damage unless it's a headshot. You are pretty much dead anyways if you don't die you are not effectively going to return fire at the range you where engaged at in the first place. You will have to bandage or bleed out, possible broken bone. The sniper has basically won anyway you are pretty much neutralized he can see where you ran or crawled and has time to move. All the 50.cals do is give you no chance to retreat but the other rifles still basically did their job of they hit.

Honestly taking 50.cal snipers out just forces those same players to go one tier down. Taking all snipers out forces those players to m14, saws, fn fals. It is efficiency and that's there is to it. Those same players will always pick the weapon with the longest effective range and that does the most damage.

Saying it requires no skill is a dumb argument it absolutely dumb to say its no skill because it's a one shot kill. This isn't COD (yes I said it).

I use to play a ton of MW2 and there was this forever arguement that by giving yourself a limiting barrier intervention bolt action > Barrett 50.cal meant you where more skilled even though the Barrett was more efficient.

Well are you not more skilled if you can build a sturdy house faster than someone with better tools? giving your self a handicap and still winning proves you have more skill, it always has.

tu

Now I don't see the reason to have a m107/AS50, but not have armor or allow us to set up cover (camo nets).

Edited August 7, 2012 by Orthus

[slonlo 43]

I do agree that someone carrying an M107 should be slowed down. With 3 mags and a scope that's nearly 50lbs. That's a lot to hump through the wilderness along with all the other gear. Once again, not something that can be fixed in a mod as far as I know.

I'd also like to add I haven't seen one .50BMG rifle since I started playing this game. Even on someone's back. I don't think they are as common as some make them out to be.