Guns & Gameplay

[Deuzerre 64]

Too Long: Don't wanna read:

- Create ways for guns to disapear other than the death in the middle of nowhere (by them wearing off or other possibilities).

- Erase the heavy snipers from the game (Not "standard" ones)

- Reduce accuracy/increase recoil of guns to improve gameplay and firefights and to simulate the "Survivor, not soldier" aspect..

I've been thinking a bit about the game as it currently is. I know features should be coming around someday, and I hope it's rather soon. As glitchy as this game is, it's still great.

1) Everything but the Guns Sink.

Anyway, like many other posts, I'll complain a bit at the availability of "High end" gear/weapons that are too frequent. It's like in MMOs: Gold is earned at a fast rate, but for the in-game economy to remain good there exists "gold sinks" where gold has to be wasted. Except in this game it's guns. It's relatively easy to find a good gun when you know where to look.

The only way a gun can "Disappear" is for the carrier to die in the middle of nowhere by "Natural" causes, and thanks (?) to snipers that kill for fun and don't claim loot. Sometimes, you just find a better gun and keep it so you dump the old one. But overall, the numbers of guns keeps increasing and increasing. They are kept in tents, vehicles, and generally they just change pockets, but don't go to oblivion.

Furthermore, they are quite easy to keep fed with ammo for the standard ones (Stanag, .45, AK 30., 9mm mags) even when not counting the exploits to refill almost empty magazines while for harder to find (Crash sites) weapons it might be a bit harder, but for that you keep a plentiful ammo gun in your pockets, and use the special gun more scarcely.

What I'd like to see is a way for either guns to become unusable (Small lifebar that goes down the more you use it, like the ammo count. A standard AK would last around 3500 shots, while a M16 2700. You could find already damaged guns) so you actually have to throw them away when they break down AND/OR much tighter loot tables AND/OR more varied weapon calibre so mags for a single category of weapon would be more scarce.

2) Friendlies in Cherno?

I think, for all of us who ever shot rifles with scopes, even for a try, that it's way harder than in game. Using anti-materiel rifles while crouched, for example, is quite absurd. Even aiming is really easy, with barely any sway. With just a good eye, I can in game down a straight moving target 500-700m away without too much trouble, even without a rangefinder. Combined with the fact that 50cal rifles exist in two variants, both relatively easy to use, find (Every two downed helicopter I can find one, with plentiful ammo) and down a target in one shot... These are out of scale for the game. Sure, they could be use, as their name would suggest, as anti-materiel, but the chance of finding a moving vehicle during the day are very close to nil, so the guns are used against infantry. Here, I would simple remove the one-shot, completely overkill, sniper rifles that are out of scale.

Other sniper rifles, like the DMR, might be somehow "Skill-less" too, but there need to be snipers, otherwise people would not be able to do overwatch duty, or simply keep people nervous. Ideally, there should be more bolt action, and less semi-auto, military grade weapons, but here comes 3)

Overall, sniping is a bit too easy and just a paradise for grievers, as it's easy to just raise the E-pen with chains of kills, rince and repeat, but they are needed in the game.

3) Survivor or rambo?

I don't know for you guys, but I'm a random joe in real life. I aim like a drunken sailor at a static target barely 100m away, when Idle, calm, and well rested/fed. Well, I might exaggerate a bit, let's just say that I do a 9/10, in those situations, with an assault rifle, and that's when knowing the basic drills.

But it looks like our survivors/bandits, barely a minute after a few Km hike on elevated terrain, in cold weather, stressed, deprived of rest and sleep, with barely any food (a regime of raw meat, cold fart bean cans, lake water and soda cans), possibly wounded, high on painkillers and morphine, are able to have a very stable aim when standing and crouched, with a heavily weighted backpack. Prone, I can understand. But in the other positions, aiming should be terrible. Recoil should hit hard for most guns, not only the AKM, and long range sniping quite troublesome. The survivors aren't Soldiers or Warriors: They are guys that have been washed ashore.

In this game/mod/alpha, whatever you want to call it, the weapons do "Realistic" (less so with the latest ARMA patch and damage reductions considering the survivors' blood amounts) amounts of damage to human targets. When you combine that with "Super aim", the PvP aspect is really all about being the first to aim and click, as it's just easy to shoot and kill (Not including Disconnecters, but we know the issue will be solved someday). If aiming was slightly (not dramatically) harder, firefights would become more intense, with people able to return fire. Engagements would waste more ammo, and there would me more risks. If it becomes more risky to attack someone, people would be less prone to shootin each other at first sight, disposing of the threat in an instant. Only people with actual agressive wills would shoot on sight, causing the bandits to exist as they should: A cast of players that keep the others afraid; on their toes.

Against Zeds, they are already easy to dispatch by just running to the cosest building/hill anyway. Sure, it's annoying and counter intuitive, but I hope something will be done to "Fix" them eventually so they become a real threat, not just a mild annoyance.

Well, that's sort of all for now. Wanted to write a 4) about the weapons damage / bullet, but apart from AK 74s stupid nerf, 9mm "more than one clip to kill a zed" and M1911 <<< Revolver due to poor accuracy, a lee enfield that barks more than bites and used to give low gears a change against high gears, shotguns that were already short range compared to reality when they actually go quite far but have been further nerfed, and One-shot easy to use snipers, there isn't much to say.

Just want opinions about this wall of text, and the gameplay implications.

Note if you read to that line: Good job; the others: Go on trolling as you usually do when walls of text hurt you heads, and comment the usual rubbish of "I have an opinion about something I didn't even bother to read".

Edited July 31, 2012 by Deuzerre

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

No, no, and no. Sorry dude, I'm not trolling, I read your post but that's just my opinion.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Fraggle

[Boomstick (DayZ) 41]

- Create ways for guns to disapear other than the death in the middle of nowhere

- Erase the heavy snipers from the game

- Reduce accuracy/increase recoil of guns to improve gameplay and firefights.

Translated that reads as...

I've been raped by snipers, please remove their tools for my benefit.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Boomstick

[erwin@goldmail.de 4]

Guns taking damage due to shooting: signed!

Maybe with an option to repair them to a certain level with a weapon repair kit.

Erase heavy snipers: not quite sure, maybe just make them more rare and the ammunition as valuable as diamonds

But we need snipers! For the thrill in Cherno, for an overwatch whilst raiding a town...

Reduce the accuracy while standing/crouching: definitely (handguns excluded)

(Heavy-) Sniperrifles shot while standing/crouching? - Maybe when you can attach a bipod and place it on a wall. Free-handed? - Just the common ones used by huntsmen.

The status of your character should be considered. A perfect shot over 500m while bleeding heavily after a 5km run without a drink... I guess most of us have done that, but not the average dayz character.

Hope that's some kind of opinion you wanted to read.

[Atanar 31]

- Erase the heavy snipers from the game

Translated that reads as...

I've been raped by snipers, please remove their tools for my benefit.

I want heavy snipers gone even thogh I am using them myself for murdering. If you find a well-hidden camp - it's full of high-end sniper rifles. Every second person I run into in the north has at least a DMR. I would remove every sniper but the CZ and also the AS FAL.

[Guest]

You see how you have no likes? take the hint.

All i can see if someone upset about dying , yet again.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I want heavy snipers gone even thogh I am using them myself for murdering. If you find a well-hidden camp - it's full of high-end sniper rifles. Every second person I run into in the north has at least a DMR. I would remove every sniper but the CZ and also the AS FAL.

So the answer would be to stop duping of gear and make sniper rifles rarer then,

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Guns taking damage due to shooting: signed!

Maybe with an option to repair them to a certain level with a weapon repair kit.

Guns don't do that.

[Hawk24 94]

In its current state DayZ can't even track ammo counts of individual magazines through reconnects

And you want to add lifebars to weapons?

Hahaha...oh wow...

Edited July 31, 2012 by Hawk24

[Deuzerre 64]

In its current state DayZ can't even track ammo counts of individual magazines through reconnects

And you want to add lifebars to weapons?

Hahaha...oh wow...

You see how you have no likes? take the hint.

All i can see if someone upset about dying , yet again.

You clearly haven't read my signature. "Still alive" as GladOs would say. It's just... Nerfing an aspect of the game that's just pointless. As I said, i've been sniping, used to be overwatch for a team that split. I'm pretty decent at it, and it's just too easy to grief. Luckily, most grievers suck and don't know how to shoot at a moving target with sniper rifles, or go full auto at 150m with a secondary weapon if they have one.

In its current state DayZ can't even track ammo counts of individual magazines through reconnects

And you want to add lifebars to weapons?

Hahaha...oh wow...

About the lifebar: Well, you see... There is that upcoming patch that will remember the ammo count. So a lifebar for number of shots or when shot at seems decent to me.

No, no, and no. Sorry dude, I'm not trolling, I read your post but that's just my opinion.

I'll just go back in my cave and cry then. Joking, no problem, everybody got their opinions, and I didn't expect it to be popular.

Guns taking damage due to shooting: signed!

Maybe with an option to repair them to a certain level with a weapon repair kit.

Erase heavy snipers: not quite sure, maybe just make them more rare and the ammunition as valuable as diamonds

But we need snipers! For the thrill in Cherno, for an overwatch whilst raiding a town...

Reduce the accuracy while standing/crouching: definitely (handguns excluded)

(Heavy-) Sniperrifles shot while standing/crouching? - Maybe when you can attach a bipod and place it on a wall. Free-handed? - Just the common ones used by huntsmen.

The status of your character should be considered. A perfect shot over 500m while bleeding heavily after a 5km run without a drink... I guess most of us have done that, but not the average dayz character.

Hope that's some kind of opinion you wanted to read.

Not sure, due to the last sentence, that you are serious, but thanks anyway.

Guns don't do that.

Actually, they do. You have to change the barrel every (number of shots) depending on the quality of the weapon and strength of the cartridge. It's especially true for LMGs. Most of the rifles you'd find in this type of scenario would be worn and already used a bit, damaged and have suffered from the weather. Also, bones don't mend with morphine.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Deuzerre

[Cooperal 16]

I'm not prepared to read the whole thing but if those bullet points give any clear summery to go by then I'll respond to those:

-Create ways for guns to disapear other than the death in the middle of nowhere

A little unnecessary. We can already drop them on the floor until they eventually despawn. You can also place them in corpses and then use the "hide body" function to delete the gun. A more immediate fashion would present some unfair exploitation. If you're cornered by a bandit and know that your time is up, you could just delete your weapons just to stop him having them. Banditry is a part of the game, killing a fellow survivor is fair-play if that's what they want to do. Deleting loot that someone has earned out of spite is terrible sportsmanship, arguably as bad as hacking.

-Erase the heavy snipers from the game

You paid for a simulator, on a mod which intended to use all of the realistic aspects to its advantage. Therefore if one gun is objectively better in real life, it will be objectively better in the simulator. Neither Bohemia nor Rocket ever set out to provide a stress-free ride. The strength in the unforgiving nature is its power is to pull at emotions. Fear, relief, joy, sadness etc. Balance is left for most games from casual to e-sports, but they have nothing in common with ARMA.

-Reduce accuracy/increase recoil of guns to improve gameplay and firefights.

Again, it defeats the point entirely. This is not some e-sport where every week the devs change their mind back and forth about how big a champions feet should be and what the AoE radius is on their fart.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Cooperal

[Sinoby 39]

I agree with the third part - aiming is somewhat too easy, I think that condition of your character should be taken into account along with overall increase of recoil. But that might be subject for standalone and not a mod.

[Deuzerre 64]

I'm not prepared to read the whole thing but if those bullet points give any clear summery to go by then I'll respond to those:

-Create ways for guns to disapear other than the death in the middle of nowhere

A little unnecessary. We can already drop them on the floor until they eventually despawn. You can also place them in corpses and then use the "hide body" function to delete the gun. A more immediate fashion would present some unfair exploitation. If you're cornered by a bandit and know that your time is up, you could just delete your weapons just to stop him having them. Banditry is a part of the game, killing a fellow survivor is fair-play if that's what they want to do. Deleting loot that someone has earned out of spite is terrible sportsmanship, arguably as bad as hacking.

-Erase the heavy snipers from the game

You paid for a simulator, on a mod which intended to use all of the realistic aspects to its advantage. Therefore if one gun is objectively better in real life, it will be objectively better in the simulator. Neither Bohemia nor Rocket ever set out to provide a stress-free ride. The strength in the unforgiving nature is its power is to pull at emotions. Fear, relief, joy, sadness etc. Balance is left for most games from casual to e-sports, but they have nothing in common with ARMA.

-Reduce accuracy/increase recoil of guns to improve gameplay and firefights.

Again, it defeats the point entirely. This is not some e-sport where every week the devs change their mind back and forth about how big a champions feet should be and what the AoE radius is on their fart.

In short:

- The first point isn't a player controled way to "destroy" gun, it's more of an idea that guns gets worn over time.

- All of the weapons of ARMA aren't included in the game. Many weren't included due to balance reasons I believe. It's just a matter of choice on his end: Is it really worth it to have those two rifles that have no real practical use?

- If this game is a simulation, why does it simulate soldiers when our characters are survivors? Would I be able to handle all of these weapons? Surely not. Would my neighbour too? Probably, he's a gun loon. But all survivors can't be supersoldiers. It's not just a balance thing, it's a simulation aspect too. The players aren't in pristine health, unlike you and I currently are or (arguably) soldiers that go in combat.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Deuzerre

[Dr. Fever 7]

I'd agree with reducing the anti-material rifles so that they spawn pretty rarely, but I think that the accuracy reductions you sugested would go a long way towards improving things. I agree its much more accurate to fire fom prone but its not impossible to fire at least some accurate shots from other positions, perhaps there should be bipods and resting of weapons like in A.C.E.. But yeah I generally agree with you so, beans.

[Deuzerre 64]

Thanks Dr Fever.

I'll put some sentences in red to highlight some other TLDR points.

[Deuzerre 64]

Edited some points in red, and the original TLDR sor it gives a better idea of the content.

[dsi24 227]

Weapon upkeep would be pretty cool, bring in ACE's jamming system (or ACE in general!) and increase jamming chance the more rounds you fire (above a certain amount) without performing upkeep.

Removing weapons? Uh yeah, no. They exist.

Increasing recoil is a hilariously bad idea that shows you're posting in anger and don't understand the game.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Dsi1

[Deuzerre 64]

Weapon upkeep would be pretty cool, bring in ACE's jamming system (or ACE in general!) and increase jamming chance the more rounds you fire (above a certain amount) without performing upkeep.

Removing weapons? Uh yeah, no. They exist.

Increasing recoil is a hilariously bad idea that shows you're posting in anger and don't understand the game.

Most of ACE's features are interesting but might be a BIT too hardcore for DayZ players.

As for removing weapons, you could add other weapons to replace them. I have quite a few of ARMA's weapons I'd like included. Including Stingers just in case a helicopter passes by. Or a makarov SD, AKS74 PSO, silenced KOBRA, AK47s (probably more common in households than AK74s), RPG7, Saiga12K, unsilenced BIZON, etc... Why aren't those in game?

And no, I haven't been posting in rage. That's funny to think you're able to see into my head from so far away. It's a long thought of idea that represents, once again, the fact that we play mere survivors & bandits that just don't have the exact weapon knowledge on how to handle guns. It's hilarious to see how people that don't know guns put the stock on their shoulders, and how it affects their aim, and how they get hurt shooting that way.

Shooting is nowhere close to the way it's handled in most games and while ARMA is pretty close for trained people (but still not quite) it totally doesn't suit untrained people.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Deuzerre

[Deuzerre 64]

Small (and last) bump. Got a few cans of beans anyway.

[ScottyTheEngineer 47]

@Deuzerre: I just wanted to start threads concerning aspects 1) and 2), but then I found this one.

1) This is supposed to be a zombie survival game, but it's becoming a high tech war/guerilla simulation. High tier loot should be rare, but it seems like 1 of 3 players is running around with anti material rifles and night vision goggles (myself included). And if they die, they just have to fetch another gun/ghillie/nvg from their tent and can do this like 10 times before they run out of gear. I know, many items are spawned by duping, but even without it the overall number of itmes would be increasing.

Currently items disappear in 3 different ways: 1. being despawned, 2. being destroyed in a tent/vehicle 3. due to bugs. I assume that 1. won't happen to top gear too often and 3. can be neglected in the standalone. I also assume that the number of really good items spawned in baracks/heli crash sites surpasses the number of those destroyed (most people destroy tents because hoarders annoy them and many items are hacked. This will hopefully be fixed in the standalone). Conclusion: the total number of good items increases. At some stage this will lead to something like 200 AS50s, 400 M240s, 600 NVGs and so on per server.

I suggest the following measures to fix this in the standalone:

- there should be a fixed items-per-player ratio for every item, depending on the number of active players in the last 7 days or so. For example, if there were 200.000 unique players in the last week and the number of NVGs on all servers and in the inventories of those unique players is 80.000, additional NVGs may spawn until their number reaches 100.000 (or the ratio is 0,5). This way "rare" items would be rare indeed.

- limit the number of tents for each unique character to 2-3 ON ALL SERVERS COMBINED and limit the storage space in tents and vehicles. I suggest 40 slots per tent. In addition, a tent should be able to store only one primary and one secondary weapon (and probably 1 NVG/rangefinder etc.). This way average players would still have a chance to find good items, while regular players would be rewarded by having a second or third kit of gear in their tent.

2) I agree. The anti-material rifles seem out of place in this game. I vote for them to be removed.

[Zarathustra (DayZ) 87]

1. Giving each gun a 'life' requires that they every weapon have a unique entry in the database for tracking its state. This would probably put more load on the central server and affect the player in other undesirable ways, including possible frame rate drops. Weapon duplication bugs and weapon spawn scripts are - I think - the main reasons for the ubiquity of high-powered sniper rifles and other supposedly rare items like NVGs. None of your suggestions will fix these.

2. I feel anti-material rifles have a place, the problem is that they are far too common. This is for the reason given above. If they and their ammo were rarer, I doubt you would be as bothered by them. I would support removing them until their scarcity can be assured, i.e. until weapon spawning scripts are eradicated.

3. I don't want the game to assume my incompetency with guns. I might agree that aiming with sniper rifles is a little easy in that it doesn't seem to adequately account for weapon sway, but I trust that the modelling of recoil is realistic and reasonable and it does seem to require some player input. I feel like we're playing different games here: I can assure you that trying to hit players at more than 20m with a AKM on full-automatic is almost impossible. Also, I do not (and I think most players do not) want to be in the situation where I line up a target, correctly account for range and movement, fire a single shot, and then have the game decide that the bullet will not go where according to natural laws it should, because: "Hey, you're a survivor, not a soldier! It doesn't matter if you aimed correctly, we're going to have that decision on the bullet's flight path be decided by a random number generator to reflect your lack of training!"

Edited August 1, 2012 by Zarathustra

[Dickhat 99]

Allmybeans.jpg

Yes, weapon condition should be implemented.

Also military grade weaponry should be WAAAAAY more rare than it is now. It's a small place in the middle of nowhere and still you can find enough military grade guns to arm the whole country.

And yes, we should have some kind of skill bar or number with a kind of gun. Let's say, the more you use shotguns in that life the better you become at it thus making your aim better, improving reload time and making your shotguns degrade slower.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Dickhat

[core.- 28]

Deleting loot that someone has earned out of spite is terrible sportsmanship, arguably as bad as hacking.

Like moving it to your full backpack when you are about to bleedout from a gunfight without bandages? :D

[core.- 28]

And yes, we should have some kind of skill bar or number with a kind of gun. Let's say, the more you use shotguns in that life the better you become at it thus making your aim better, improving reload time and making your shotguns degrade slower.

SKILL MODIFIERS!? REALLY!?

Goddamn the current generation.

Such a dissappointment.

[crazyshadowdami 1]

No.