Bandit/Survivor Morphing to be removed

[Reav 0]

Bandits with ghillie suits... If we're adding ghillie suits in' date=' could you add a button that turns my gun on myself too? Might as well cut out the middle man!

[/quote']

See, I can not, for the life of me, understand how this would be a problem... You could make or find one for yourself and hide or fight back.

You can't expect everyone to be nice and you should not make them if we want this game to be special. Want peace? Rally your own militia or something.

[partybooper 2]

Murder is not a humane punishment' date=' self appointed justicar.

[/quote']

Come on, in a videogame? It sure is. Especially when shooting guys who killed others, probably even without a reason. I find it quite amusing when bandits whine about how they became a bandit in self-defense in the chat...

I'd say: Try harder next time. Avoid suspicious acting survivors. If he shoots, run away. If you're too close to him when he starts firing, you were too close or not stealthy enough.

DayZ is about survival, about distrust. You should never trust anyone. If I do and have to shoot a survivor afterwards and become a bandit, it's my own fault. So without the bandit skin feature those who played as survivors and went on bandit hunting will lose a feature. I'm just pointing out which is a negative aspect of removing the bandit system altogether.

[bbobu 1]

Anyway' date=' in my opinion, in real life we have visual clues as to if someone is trusthworthy or not. The way people dress themselves, the way they move, they way they act and talk. We dont have that in video games, thats why we need a visual clue. In video games they all move the same, they all look the same and they all act the same. Even if there are different skins the two guys wearing the same uniform can be totally different while looking identical.

[/quote']

Agreed. Every game, no matter how "realistic" is going to have certain abstractions to represent real-life aspects. The bandit skin is one that seems fair. It doesn't inhibit the bandit's ability to play, but it gives a hint to other survivors that he is likely hostile. It's like how the outlaw in a western wears a bandana.

Anyway, I understand this is Alpha and a lot of experimentation is still going on. We'll see how it plays out.

[stripes 92]

So' date=' to clarify, there is now literally no downside to just murdering everyone you come across?

[/quote']

Thats right.

I dont get this change at all but I'll assume Rocket knows what hes doing & this is somehow good for the game...

[Roflcat 0]

Good chance this is also going to make survivors who normally wouldn't murder a little more trigger happy since:

a) it isn't obvious if someone is a PKer anymore

b) there is no functional downside to having negative humanity

Looking forward to seeing how this pans out.

[.:14A41:.Pvt.p4lztZ 3]

Humanity remains as a silent guardian, watchful protector.

I guess...Doesn't really matter though it's not like it has consequences or incentive's attached to it. If no one else knows your number whats the point? People deal with it regardless in their own way. Even if it is just a game. Whatever, It's all good.

Glad your taking out the skin transition.

Keep up the great work man! Your hilarious every time you say something (in a good way). Make's me very happy your running the show. :D

[bobbyweenus 17]

I'm going to make a thread in the suggestion forum soon about this but I wanted to put it on this thread because this is the center of the debate here.

The most realistic way to add a moral / decision making devise that stops people from wide scale slaughtering everyone they see is socially. Realistically that is how the world works, not a number value humanity system.

Relying on something to be socially driven is dangerous, as it could be easily trolled and such. Here's my idea anyway, let me know what you think:

The relatively failed semi-MMOFPS game APB has a witnessing system. When a cop character see's a criminal character stealing a car or killing someone or running a robbery, he holds down a button (lets use tab for the sake of DayZ) and it witnesses the criminal, registering it as a crime if it is one, and sending out an APB. We can take a note from that. If a bandit/murderer character's reputation were to be sullied, someone would have to survive or witness his wrong doing.

So lets say there are 3 players in a forest. Bandit, Survivor 1 and Survivor 2. Bandit sees Survivor 1, he shoots him and likely kills him, but he never saw Survivor 2, as S2 was further away and hiding. S2 would hold down tab, to witness the murder. This registers this player as a murderer in S2's eyes. Since player models, even with some more skins, cannot be described to each other, we have to let the game/engine do the work and fill in the blanks. IRL, I would describe someone as tall, short, skinny, fat, and their facial features, since we can't do that in-game, the witnessing system would effectively do that for the player, using the game to commit the players 'appearance' to memory, or data.

This brings up the social aspect. Now lets say you meet another survivor and briefly talk without murdering each other. You could then pass along or trade the 'witnessing data', the in-game equivalent of telling the other survivor what happened and describing the murderer, and telling them to steer clear. Players could accumulate witnessing data, trade it and pass it along to each other, effectively creating a social reputation system that isn't an arbitrary number or something that magically works.

This creates a demand for social interaction, allowing us to have those perhaps tense moments of uncertainty around a player instead of just killing each other. This creates a demand for players to perhaps create trading posts naturally in-game and gives players a reason to maybe be diplomatic rather than violent or psychotic.

The thing this would do, assuming we're playing on servers without gamertags showing up (hopefully), is maybe add some kind of noticeable marking on a player if you've heard that he is a murderer. Maybe even just a slight red tint to their gun, or add something slightly to their face, or even just an asterix near them when you look. This is something we, or Rocket, would have to figure out, what would be the best without breaking immersion.

Murderers could wear facemask, the one used on the bandit skin, to make themselves un-witnessable. The negative effect of that is that other players, true to life, would see someone wearing a facemask as threatening. Think about this. You're walking through a parking lot. Someone walks by you wearing a bandana over their face. Wouldn't you wonder why that guy had his face obscured? It makes you think, and it gives a trade off. You are untrackable, but you are threatening looking. This fits in with players, "Dressing to their playstyle" as Rocket stated he wanted to implement.

If a player dies, his witnessing data is wiped, and witnessing data about him is wiped, as it is permadeath, a new death means a new character. This is about as realistic as I can think of. The only way a murderer is traceable is if he leaves a witness, and even then, that witness has to spread the word.

Input / comments?

[Babaganoush 1]

I hope rocket knows what he's doing. I'm pretty sure he does.

But with the influx of new players who bought ArmA SOLELY for this mod, comes new players who probably really haven't played with a sense of camaraderie. Most streamers I've observed are just bandits. You can't really watch out for "suspicious" survivors because once they take the first shot, you're most likely to be already dead.

With the removal of the skin, I feel that this mod is going to turn more into a glorified Deathmatch rather than teaming up to survive. I just hope that the humanity being left behind offers some reward/punishment system. It's especially annoying since most bandits I try to pick off disconnect at the sound of me shooting them.

[Mutonizer 78]

Bandits with ghillie suits... If we're adding ghillie suits in' date=' could you add a button that turns my gun on myself too? Might as well cut out the middle man!

[/quote']

See, I can not, for the life of me, understand how this would be a problem... You could make or find one for yourself and hide or fight back.

You can't expect everyone to be nice and you should not make them if we want this game to be special. Want peace? Rally your own militia or something.

How would anyone rally their own militia via the mod if everyone finds it safer and easier to just kill everyone else? Especially with direct com not being too stable.

The ONLY groups I know of that are organised groups, are pre-made players, often using teamspeak/mumbles. Sorry but these guys have no idea how this mod is, how it plays and are not to be taken as a reference or example. They have NO CLUE whatsoever. They are however usually the most friendly because most are ARMA2 players and have what others have called that sense of camaraderie and even "roleplay".

The real players, you see them pleading in side chat and yelling friendly in there. Once side & global are gone (hopefully once direct com works 100% of the time), then we'll see how many of these remain.

Personally I spend hours upon hours alone, surviving, totally immersed and you could say "roleplaying". But don't go and tell me to "form a militia" because in game currently that's nearly impossible without using external tools/communication systems.

If you are like me (I'm not a rampaging murderer) and play the mod the way it's meant to be played, without "tools", then if you see someone, you get the fuck out, FAST. The only times I try to make contact is when I'm all kind of screwed up and need help. In the HOURS (and that's a shit ton of it) of play I've had so far like this, I can count the number of people that didn't shoot me in the face on my hands.

Direct com being screwed up is the biggest limitation so far however I think. I NEVER know if the guy can hear me....

[bobda 11]

So many complaints. I for one can hardly contain my excitement in my pants. I've been killed by more survivors than bandits, and the only thing the bandit skin did was make me shoot them on sight. And I bet some of those I shot without question had no intentions of doing me any harm anyway.

Now everyone will be on a level playing field. On top of this it will make identifying your friends on a no nametag server so much easier.

To the devs, you have to remember, the smallest percent is usually the loudest. For every person on here providing you with delicious tears, I bet theres three more silently hiding their boners from this game that keeps getting better and better.

[Unkn0wn (DayZ) 2]

I believe this change is for the best, the bandit system, while being a good idea in theory, had too many downsides. Having players able to differentiate their look sounds amazing. I do hope it will still be possible to identify very low humanity players one way or another? Maybe you can just have their name show up in a different colour on the regular servers that show names? I think that would be a good way to keep a WARNING! indication. (You wouldn't have this on hardcore servers, but then again if you want to play hardcore, you probably won't mind)

[Astuneta (DayZ) 0]

I agree with this change. Right now I did not trust anybody, no matter what skin they wear, and besides it´s not realistic. Adding tension to the mix! Great thing! Way to go Rocket!

[WitchZero 0]

This is going to make it even more tense!!! GAH! Honestly with having multiple skins and not knowing who is a bandit is brilliant. Your name will mean more on a server over time. Besides you can use a different profile to play different personalities.

The Bandit system is a cool idea. I liked it but I understand it has to be a robust system and a pain in the ass to implement the way you want it. Maybe we will see it in ARMA3 DayZ. :)

[Unkn0wn (DayZ) 2]

You could have a server message display who murdered who, but that may be a little intrusive. I believe just displaying the name on screen (and in player list) in a different colour would be a good enough warning when crossing very low humanity players.

[bobbyweenus 17]

See' date=' I can not, for the life of me, understand how this would be a problem... You could make or find one for yourself and hide or fight back.

You can't expect everyone to be nice and you should not make them if we want this game to be special. Want peace? Rally your own militia or something.

[/quote']

It's not about peace or violence. It's about people being able to use cover pretty well already (at least on my visual settings), and a ghillie suit making people virtually invisible completely. That's all I meant by that. I will literally walk on top of people in ghillie suits. I've had players walk over me laying in poor cover in the night time. If I had a ghillie suit... god help the people I want to kill.

[koshka 0]

Im pretty dubious about this "its full of CoD players' date=' everyone just shoots on sight". The number just don't support it. Do you get backstabbed? Yes you do. That is part of the tension and the learning. You need to be fucking careful. Bandit skins were an interesting attempt but they did not achieve what was desired of them, and they're standing in the way of another feature... choosing your own skin. So we fucked that shit right off.

[/quote']

I'm happy that I share rockets point of view :]

[rocket 16567]

To clarify, I have no idea what I am doing with this, all I have is a hypothesis. It is that the bandit skins make no difference. Some of you think they do, and maybe they do. However, the data seems to indicate the killing is generally evenly spread with the vast majority doing it relatively rarely, with a relatively small number accounting for most of the kills. There is no difference between a fucking gyrator of an evil bandit and some dude who has no the fuck what he is doing and shot some guy.

So my theory (and to say I know what I am doing here, well, that is quite a stretch) is that removing the bandit skins will really not cause that much discomfort. The people surviving are either:

- Teamed up with real world mates

- Trusting based on FAR MORE than skin (observation, gut feel, blind ignorance)

- Lucky/Clueless

So, what am I achieving with bandit skins? The only thing I can actually say they have achieved with certainty, is the odd bandit meme. The premise is a sound idea (subtle cues to a person's psychology) but that has not translated in game for some simple, and some fucking complex, reasons.

Did the world end when lots of zombies came in? No. The Care Bears went back to Kingdom of Caring (I actually had to look that up on wikipedia) until 1.5.8, but essentially I don't think it was the doom and gloom that was proclaimed.

By removing this, we make way for a much more interesting feature, one that I think we all can agree is useful and has it's place: the ability to craft/find/loot your own skin to wear.

[stripes 92]

Let me reiterate a very key point I keep trying to make:

You are the inhabitants of the world. I am the architect. You guys are going to decide how this world plays out. Don't compare this to other games and look for different balancing mechanics. This is an attempt at something different' date=' it is an experiment. There is no balance, other than the balance you will put in. I will put in the features required for you to either destroy this world into mindless PVP, or create something else. Don't look to me for that balance, because I will not give you it. We started this in a particular way, we're going to finish in that way.

Some of keep looking to me to provide you a structured experience, balanced. That's not what is happening here. I'm not looking at something realistic, that isn't possible. I'm aiming for authenticity to the extent possible, but I'm realistic about what can be achieved there.

You guys keep saying I'm trying to encourage this or that with that mechanic, I'm not. I'm trying to model thought processes. The interactions are too complex to breakdown into simple mechanics so I have to focus on situations and thought processes I am trying to put into your head as you play. So I'm not doing this to support/remove PVP.

[/quote']

This quote should be 'stickied' somewhere

[Banano (DayZ) 0]

Let me reiterate a very key point I keep trying to make:

You are the inhabitants of the world. I am the architect. You guys are going to decide how this world plays out. Don't compare this to other games and look for different balancing mechanics. This is an attempt at something different' date=' it is an experiment. There is no balance, other than the balance you will put in. I will put in the features required for you to either destroy this world into mindless PVP, or create something else. Don't look to me for that balance, because I will not give you it. We started this in a particular way, we're going to finish in that way.

Some of keep looking to me to provide you a structured experience, balanced. That's not what is happening here. I'm not looking at something realistic, that isn't possible. I'm aiming for authenticity to the extent possible, but I'm realistic about what can be achieved there.

You guys keep saying I'm trying to encourage this or that with that mechanic, I'm not. I'm trying to model thought processes. The interactions are too complex to breakdown into simple mechanics so I have to focus on situations and thought processes I am trying to put into your head as you play. So I'm not doing this to support/remove PVP.

[/quote']

This quote should be 'stickied' somewhere

So painfully true.

[bobbyweenus 17]

So my theory (and to say I know what I am doing here' date=' well, that is quite a stretch) is that removing the bandit skins will really not cause that much discomfort. The people surviving are either:

- Teamed up with real world mates

- Trusting based on FAR MORE than skin (observation, gut feel, blind ignorance)

- Lucky/Clueless

----

By removing this, we make way for a much more interesting feature, one that I think we all can agree is useful and has it's place: the ability to craft/find/loot your own skin to wear.

[/quote']

I really hope you are right, I just see the bandit system as a form of false, yet effective discouragement towards wrong doings, you know, not unlike religion!

[Ragvamuffin 0]

I can see how the curent mechanic doesn't work, but I like the idea behind it. I think the problm with the bandit skin is that it is too drastic implementation of an otherwise nice concept. How about making some real subtle change in the way people look depending on their humanity? Maybe bandits have blue eyes, and survivors has brown eyes?

In that case, you can still check the nature of a guy you just met by looking him in the yes (a bit like in real life?), but you wouldn't know he was a bandit before you were so close, that he could easily have shot you 50 times anyway - so maybe he is trustworthy afterall?

[rocket 16567]

...I just see the bandit system as a form of false' date=' yet effective discouragement towards wrong doings, you know, not unlike religion!

[/quote']

But don't you see. That's the point. Why am I implementing that? Isn't that your job? Cmon guys! How long have we been ASKING for games that let the gamers call the shots! I should be focusing on providing the platforms/mechanics for you guys to decide this balance, and fight about what that balance is.

[Mutonizer 78]

You are the inhabitants of the world. I am the architect[..]

Actually some of us are alien entities with psychic powers, able to communicate with others over vast distances (teamspeak) and use our Mars radars to get some map references (internet). We can also teleport outselves to our mothership if attacked (disconnecting), just in case we're about to die!

Then you got the normal humans, lost in the fucking woods, and these dudes need direct com to work (not your shit I know) and the mod will become a different ballgame in lots of ways (at least I'll know if I need to shoot the dude, or if he just can't hear me).

[Ostheim (DayZ) 1]

This is as it should be. We have to learn who bandits are by survivor communication, not just "lol look over there, a bandit"

[predator_v2 0]

Goodbye teamwork with strangers..

Lock and load!