Major changes to gunplay are necessary. De-console-ify the game for PC, NOW!

[Buakaw 274]

1. Give all automatic guns 10-20% more recoil.

2. Bullets go where the gun points. That is both intuitive and realistic and how Dayz used to work for 5+ years. If you can compensate recoil somewhat well and keep your gun on target, that's where your bullets should go.

Not 50cm to the top left of where you aim.

3. The second bullet of a spray should NOT deviate 50+ cm from the first one for no other reason than being the 2nd bullet, even when your gun is perfectly on target. This happens with a lot of guns, apparently for the sole reason that they didn't want people who can compensate recoil to 2 tap players on range with short bursts... when that is exactly how assault rifles are used in real combat.

4. Hipfire should emulate TRUE aimcone like arma 2 and 3 and older versions. It should also have more spread. Not this wannabe fake CSGO crap where you can get lucky and hit a perfect hipfire laser beam on 50 meters sometimes and other times hit 0 out of 20 bullets because they all group in one corner 50cm away from your crosshair for some reason (CSGO anyone?). If you point a gun at a target hipfiring and control it well, you should always be expected to hit a certain amount of bullets. Not sometimes 10 and sometimes 0. Thus, bring back aimcone.

5. Hipfire should also have a lot more recoil in addition to true aimcone. You should have to compensate for strong recoil both when ADSd and hipfiring.

6. BIG ONE: Sprinting and changing direction needs inertia so poor positioning will get punished more easily. Zig zagging is just insanely overpowered in this game. Going from standing to sprinting and vice versa needs a ramp-up/ inertia, it shouldn't be instant.

Bonus:

7. Revamp melee system. Remove all locked animations, allow us to walk while attacking. Why can you jog while eating beans but you can't move while swinging a knife?

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Buakaw

[Buakaw 274]

Can I have some support and upboats please

Edited June 21, 2022 by Buakaw

[lakevu 77]

Please check out another post I made on this same topic

 

 

[Buakaw 274]

1 hour ago, lakevu said:

Please check out another post I made on this same topic

I did and fundamentally disagree with you. I left you a detailed response, feel free to reply and also give me one if you care to do so.

[Buakaw 274]

why would anyone with a sane mind prefer the current weapon handling that has so much RNG?

streamlining the mechanics more like they used to be in Legacy with some adjustments is both far more realistic and more rewarding and fun gameplay wise. it goes to show once again: gamers arent what they used to be anymore. they'll just eat up whatever devs feed them

[DefectiveWater 491]

I agree with you that gunplay needs some major improvements (along with other things like movement) and I don't think we'll see any real major changes until they decide to port the updated engine (or parts of it) to DayZ or they start making DayZ 2.

Edited June 24, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[Officer Failure 31]

1 is alright
2 3 haven't noticed - i guess a lot people haven't too so that's why they don't care much (me too)
4 5 yes

6. Is important and should get a better look at. It would be great if this gets more weight dependent. So like moving inertia yes, weapon inertia no, turncap weight dependent

7. I think meele is fine or sufficient, sure it could be better but it seems to me not much important. You can't run and swing the sledgehammer like you can't run and swing the knive, theres just one system.

But in terms of gunplay i miss here the biggest point: Breathholding

You hold one button and you have a 100% sway reduction. Something like 50% would be allright as a kind of weaponfocus. But no sway in every stance? You see somebody and you are immediately ready sniper. No need to go prone, positon yourself, it doesn't matter how far away - if the poor sucker stands still you hit no matter what. Pionier is lightweight and has little sway? Everyone picks the mosin, you hold that button and they're both the same in terms of aiming. I tried to point that out here (+ a moddel to divide stamina from breath)

 

[Buakaw 274]

19 hours ago, Officer Failure said:

6. Is important and should get a better look at. It would be great if this gets more weight dependent. So like moving inertia yes, weapon inertia no, turncap weight dependent

I think the current weight system is fine, any more and you would just overcomplicate it. It simply needs to be like Arma 2 / Mod DayZ and have inertia.

[Officer Failure 31]

Well there isn't much of a complicated weight system, i mean the only thing it got an impact at is the stamina bar. I would say it should have an effect on the lower body turncap (when you hear the feet tabbing). But well, i don't know how this would impact on running.
But I can go talk more complicated: with the from my side earlier mentioned pain system you could go as far as receiving pain damage from being overweight to a certain point (like up to a quarter from little overweight and half from high overweight) which would slowly lower your walking/running speed. But that might be too far off...

2 hours ago, Buakaw said:

It simply needs to be like Arma 2 / Mod DayZ and have inertia.

If you had contact on an open range in arma 2 and there was no cover, the first thing was to kneel down or get on the ground to make yourself smaller (as a target)  and for better aim and even then, the bullet exchange took quite some time since aiming was not this easy. I miss this stuff.

Not this zigzacking or freestand 500m no sway "skillshots"

 

[lemmac 99]

Try playing on console controller if you find aiming too easy

[Officer Failure 31]

Well I do write in the perspective of a pc player, Kudos to people who can play a game like that with a controller (I could never master any controller past the n64 controller). But since there is no crossplay, why have console and PC version be identical in terms of gunplay? (that's what the title of the thread aims to I guess?) Is it any harder compared to pc?

But besides that do the above statements and suggestions not apply for consoles too? Do people more likely dump a mosin for a pioneer when playing on console? All rifles behave the same on aiming when breathholding is in action. Do they have to go prone when sniping? (the prone stance is very nifty btw) And therefore move likely get to higher ground so you can see the target when lying (and can be seen when moving)? Or is it handled like usual on a random encounter 150m and you can just stand still, pull out the rifle and deal guaranteed death within seconds if the target isn't moving?

Or aren't there no close combat encounters where one is running aimless zickzag like a weasel and the other one is emptying his magazine, and then change of roles and this carries on until enough loose rounds finds one to end this ridiculous scene? I mean this still can be fun but isn't much suitable for a "hardcore" game. It can be better. Sorry if I repeat myself.

[Buakaw 274]

On 6/26/2022 at 12:43 PM, lemmac said:

Try playing on console controller if you find aiming too easy

Try aiming on controller with legacy recoil if you find controller aiming too hard.

On 6/26/2022 at 11:01 PM, Officer Failure said:

why have console and PC version be identical in terms of gunplay?

Bingo. I suppose because it's easier to develop, but factually, it would be better for everyone if the versions were kept seperate in regards to gunplay. I totally understand why they would lower recoil drastically and instead have the guns fire off in random directions. But for MnK it makes little sense and should be the other way around

 

 

[EzyStriderPS4 191]

UPBOAT!!

[DefectiveWater 491]

On 6/21/2022 at 2:43 AM, Buakaw said:

1. Give all automatic guns 10-20% more recoil.

2. Bullets go where the gun points. That is both intuitive and realistic and how Dayz used to work for 5+ years. If you can compensate recoil somewhat well and keep your gun on target, that's where your bullets should go.

Not 50cm to the top left of where you aim.

3. The second bullet of a spray should NOT deviate 50+ cm from the first one for no other reason than being the 2nd bullet, even when your gun is perfectly on target. This happens with a lot of guns, apparently for the sole reason that they didn't want people who can compensate recoil to 2 tap players on range with short bursts... when that is exactly how assault rifles are used in real combat.

4. Hipfire should emulate TRUE aimcone like arma 2 and 3 and older versions. It should also have more spread. Not this wannabe fake CSGO crap where you can get lucky and hit a perfect hipfire laser beam on 50 meters sometimes and other times hit 0 out of 20 bullets because they all group in one corner 50cm away from your crosshair for some reason (CSGO anyone?). If you point a gun at a target hipfiring and control it well, you should always be expected to hit a certain amount of bullets. Not sometimes 10 and sometimes 0. Thus, bring back aimcone.

5. Hipfire should also have a lot more recoil in addition to true aimcone. You should have to compensate for strong recoil both when ADSd and hipfiring.

6. BIG ONE: Sprinting and changing direction needs inertia so poor positioning will get punished more easily. Zig zagging is just insanely overpowered in this game. Going from standing to sprinting and vice versa needs a ramp-up/ inertia, it shouldn't be instant.

Bonus:

7. Revamp melee system. Remove all locked animations, allow us to walk while attacking. Why can you jog while eating beans but you can't move while swinging a knife?

 

I'll go through this again point by point basis cause I have time now:

1. No (for now). "Sights glued to the center of your screen" gunplay is too arcadey, leave the recoil as is until they change this and see how it works out.

2. and 3. Yeah, bullets should generally go where your sights are pointing (accuracy/precision/bullet drop should affect where the bullets go). I feel like this is an oversight with some guns (remember that UMP used to do it too before they made some gun changes?). Gunplay seems like it was rushed and slapped together to make something work in DayZ.

4. and 5. Technically hipfire in DayZ isn't real "hipfire", more like shoulderfire but not aiming through the sights. Still kinda OP. 

6. Yes, movement speed is too fast and zig zagging is way too OP. It should slow you down (depending on character weight?) and drain your stamina slightly with each sudden direction change.

7. Adding a movement speed slider like how Tarkov has it might alleviate this issue somewhat. Each stance should have the max movement speed capped to a certain point (obviously crouching max speed is lower than standing up, and aiming is obviously slower than not aiming) BUT you shouldn't be locked to walking speed.

Few additions of mine that aren't strictly about gunplay but do affect guns:

#1 - bring back "toggle to raise gun" and give us 2 different running/sprinting animation sets for each modes (animations aren't that important, but they could show player's intent if they are ready to shoot immediately or if they are just running with a gun in their hands as a defense measure).
Make pulling out guns from backpacks much slower (or maybe restrict backpacks from having shortcuts to items) and shoulder slots slightly slower too. Give holsters an advantage over just stuffing the pistol in your pants.

#2 - restrict or make compartments in the inventory slots. Pants generally have 2 pockets, right? So why can I fit an MP5K in my pants? Why do pants have 30 slots as a ONE compartment. Shouldn't it be 15 + 15?
Same with vests, they should have compartments that are IDEAL for mags (1 width and 3/4 height compartments), but you could fit anything smaller or equal to that.
And increase the size of certain items too. 8 lighters taking up same space as a Deagle? Deagle is 4x2, should be at least 5x3. It would easily fit into bigger pants that have 30 max slots (15+15 cause 2 pockets, 15 = 5x3 or 3x5)

[Buakaw 274]

7 minutes ago, DefectiveWater said:

1. No (for now). "Sights glued to the center of your screen" gunplay is too arcadey, leave the recoil as is until they change this and see how it works out. 

I fail to see how having the sights off center is less arcadey or adds to gameplay in any way. To me it feels more robust that way, but I also wouldn't mind if it was slightly off center / shaking when you full auto a gun, that would be pretty cool. Wasn't it like that in legacy? That said, I also don't understand why you would oppose more recoil if it's too arcadey? wouldn't more recoil just make it harder and thus less arcadey? Cuz that is supposed to be the goal.

Glad we seem to agree on a lot of stuff tho

 

[DefectiveWater 491]

41 minutes ago, Buakaw said:

That said, I also don't understand why you would oppose more recoil if it's too arcadey?

The only reason why I said no (for now) to more recoil is this:
"leave the recoil as is until they change this and see how it works out."

Do it step by step, don't make recoil unrealistically high or low. I don't want guns in DayZ to have insanely unrealistic recoil like AS VAL in Tarkov:

I don't want laser beams, but I don't want guns to be insanely unrealistic either. Higher than real recoil is fine though, but this Tarkov example is just too much.

Edited July 2, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[Former Echo Trooper 8]

On 6/24/2022 at 6:11 PM, Officer Failure said:

You hold one button and you have a 100% sway reduction. Something like 50% would be allright as a kind of weaponfocus. But no sway in every stance? You see somebody and you are immediately ready sniper. No need to go prone, positon yourself, it doesn't matter how far away - if the poor sucker stands still you hit no matter what. Pionier is lightweight and has little sway? Everyone picks the mosin, you hold that button and they're both the same in terms of aiming. I tried to point that out here (+ a moddel to divide stamina from breath)

I agree. The reduction is way too much. It should, realistically, depend on character stance and stamina level. A character that is in the lower end of the stamina bar, is breathing heavy, would have way more sway (even while holding their breath) than one that has been prone and has a full stamina bar. There’s a reason why real world sniper shoot from prone instead of fully standing. The human body naturally sways when you change the center of gravity, like you do when you shoulder a gun or wear a full pack. 

[Buakaw 274]

@DefectiveWater besides the overtuned recoil, it does look and feel so sharp tho. I really would love if DayZ gunplay was more like Tarkov's.

And yeah, what is bugging me most about gunplay right now is definitely 2. and 3. It is just unbearingly annoying how the bullets curve outwards of your barrel, even when you have great mouse control, which should be rewarded.

It's also why I think a little more recoil than RL can't hurt, it takes skill IRL to stabilize a fully automatic, and it should take some skill with the mouse to do so, too. If you don't have that, you should stick to tap firing or small bursts.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Buakaw

[DefectiveWater 491]

18 minutes ago, Former Echo Trooper said:

There’s a reason why real world sniper shoot from prone instead of fully standing.

True, we also should be able to prop up our guns on wall edges and stuff, but regarding prone in DayZ. It's kinda buggy... It's annoying to prone on an uneven terrain. Especially if you are downhill, you are looking up, see a player, press aim button AAAAAAAAAND you are looking into the ground...

12 minutes ago, Buakaw said:

@DefectiveWater besides the overtuned recoil, it does look and feel so sharp tho.

I really would love if DayZ gunplay was more like Tarkov's.

Agreed.

Edit: I've read your edit and I agree.

Edited July 2, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[Buakaw 274]

@DefectiveWater

As for weapons / balance that we haven't even touched yet.

The firerate "bug" that forces all weapons to have either 300, 600 or 900 rpm really  takes away from the uniqueness and character of some of the guns. An Mp5K fires at 900 RPM yes, but for an M4 800 is more realistic and the difference is definitely noticeable, such nuances get lost.

And then why do all AKs have the exact same base recoil? I liked it when the AKM was the hardest hitting but also had the most recoil. The AK74 was it's little brother and much easier to handle. Now, you can  take any AK and they feel more or less the same.

And every assault rifle right now will knock out a plate carrier in 2 hits. WOBO made a video of how the Aug statistically is the best AR and there is lots of nice data in there, but really the only thing that matters right now is how you can deliver those 2 bullets most reliably and easily. There is really very little reason to go thru the trouble and upgrade from an AK74 to an AUG, unless you plan on tapping people long range, for which most people rather use blaze or tundra. In fact the Aug handles much worse than the AK74 - bullets curve to the top left of where you aim during full auto, the recoil is much worse and the iron sights are unusable.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Buakaw

[Officer Failure 31]

On 7/2/2022 at 5:52 PM, DefectiveWater said:

Make pulling out guns from backpacks much slower (or maybe restrict backpacks from having shortcuts to items) and shoulder slots slightly slower too. Give holsters an advantage over just stuffing the pistol in your pants.

I like this one very much. Back in the old dayz you had to open your backpack every time you want to manipulate stuff from the backpack. Imagine western movie standoffs where they look eye to eye and pull their revolvers from backpacks this quick.

On 7/2/2022 at 5:52 PM, DefectiveWater said:

#2 - restrict or make compartments in the inventory slots. Pants generally have 2 pockets, right? So why can I fit an MP5K in my pants? Why do pants have 30 slots as a ONE compartment. Shouldn't it be 15 + 15?
Same with vests, they should have compartments that are IDEAL for mags (1 width and 3/4 height compartments), but you could fit anything smaller or equal to that.
And increase the size of certain items too. 8 lighters taking up same space as a Deagle? Deagle is 4x2, should be at least 5x3. It would easily fit into bigger pants that have 30 max slots (15+15 cause 2 pockets, 15 = 5x3 or 3x5)

Pockets! But my Pants usually have 4, with knee pockets 6. I often think if you sew all pockets together to one bag you could theoretically put a car battery in there. So it's not (so much) messed up in size but well - that size is split to pockets. The big stuff would get straight in the backpack and then it would be a bit less messy. T-Shirts shouldn't allow any storage - some community servers do that along with size adjustments of a lot of basic inventory objects (they're mostly getting smaller). Yea inventory overhaul

On 7/2/2022 at 7:25 PM, Former Echo Trooper said:

The reduction is way too much. It should, realistically, depend on character stance and stamina level. A character that is in the lower end of the stamina bar, is breathing heavy, would have way more sway (even while holding their breath) than one that has been prone and has a full stamina bar.

When you're loaded (weight) there's almost no stamina bar and a short heavy breathing from the fast recovering . If the stamina bar would stay in size but drain faster depending on weight it would be way smarter and easier to implement heavy breathing sway. Or splitting stamina from breath (still logically dependent) like in the post i linked here earlier.

On 7/2/2022 at 7:35 PM, DefectiveWater said:

we also should be able to prop up our guns on wall edges and stuff,

That would be freaking amazing and fitting for a open word game,  but i have never seen it done well in any game.

On 7/2/2022 at 7:35 PM, DefectiveWater said:

but regarding prone in DayZ. It's kinda buggy... It's annoying to prone on an uneven terrain. Especially if you are downhill, you are looking up, see a player, press aim button AAAAAAAAAND you are looking into the ground...

That's why i like so much you are not laying flat even on a step hill, but you're right on the second part, i guess it's a bug. I can't think of a logical intention for this.

[DefectiveWater 491]

On 7/5/2022 at 2:16 PM, Buakaw said:

@DefectiveWater

As for weapons / balance that we haven't even touched yet.

The firerate "bug" that forces all weapons to have either 300, 600 or 900 rpm really  takes away from the uniqueness and character of some of the guns. An Mp5K fires at 900 RPM yes, but for an M4 800 is more realistic and the difference is definitely noticeable, such nuances get lost.

And then why do all AKs have the exact same base recoil? I liked it when the AKM was the hardest hitting but also had the most recoil. The AK74 was it's little brother and much easier to handle. Now, you can  take any AK and they feel more or less the same.

I posted this yesterday but it had to be approved cause of a picture I attached.
Here's the comment without the picture:

Yeah, the firerate "bug" really does take away some variety in guns and it's a real shame.

Regarding the recoil, it's weird that all AK variants have same base recoil. AKM actually has lowest recoil by default because it spawns with recoil reducing attachments (that specific wood somehow magically reduces recoil... idk don't ask me).
Another thing, M4 and MP5K Rail Handguards reduce recoil, whereas AK Rail Handguard reduces sway... shouldn't they be the same?

Regarding guns in DayZ in general:
- Gun weight should affect sway and recoil, that includes mags (ammo in the mag might require too much math during full auto sprays, but it really should be counted too) and scopes. More weight = less recoil, more sway.
- M4 without rear sights deserves a massive accuracy nerf.
- Player should be able to choose to cut the barrel, buttstock or both on sawed off weapons.
- Sawed off civilian guns should have a low chance of spawning instead of the full size ones (at least the double barrel should).
- Spray painted guns should have a low chance of spawning instead of normal ones.

Can the real AKS-74U take other AK buttstocks (polymer, wooden) the same way it does in the game?

Edited July 6, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[DefectiveWater 491]

41 minutes ago, Officer Failure said:

Pockets! But my Pants usually have 4, with knee pockets 6. I often think if you sew all pockets together to one bag you could theoretically put a car battery in there. So it's not (so much) messed up in size but well - that size is split to pockets. The big stuff would get straight in the backpack and then it would be a bit less messy. T-Shirts shouldn't allow any storage - some community servers do that along with size adjustments of a lot of basic inventory objects (they're mostly getting smaller).

Fair enough. 2, 4, 6 pockets or however many I just wish they were all separated compartments.
Agreed about T-shirts. Clothing shouldn't have any slots if they don't have any pockets.

44 minutes ago, Officer Failure said:

Yea inventory overhaul

I don't think we will ever see an inventory overhaul, but I/we can hope.

[Misnomera 52]

5 hours ago, DefectiveWater said:

. AKM actually has lowest recoil by default because it spawns with recoil reducing attachments (that specific wood somehow magically reduces recoil... idk don't ask me). - I believe the logic is that the wood attachments are heavier than polymer; heavy components reduce felt recoil on weapons. some guns have added weight in the barrel to counteract recoil (like the M16a2)
 
- Player should be able to choose to cut the barrel, buttstock or both on sawed off weapons. (agree)
- Sawed off civilian guns should have a low chance of spawning instead of the full size ones (at least the double barrel should). (agree)
- Spray painted guns should have a low chance of spawning instead of normal ones. (agree)

 

 

There should be a way to modify certain weapons for different jobs; I'd like to be able to convert some rifles to SBRs for CQB instead of looking for a different gun to do the job. Also, add more attachments that enhance weapons instead of adding new guns all the time. Based on the models, it looks like the AKs come with come with a compensator built in. It would be better if something like that had to be found instead, along with a grip. There are comps for weapons that don't really even need them like the Mosin and the SG5k, but not on guns that can actually benefit from them.  

[Likvid-cb38db5edb1efdb0 17]

I hope that the developers (or someone close to them) will look into this topic. I have been waiting for the normal inertia of the characters and gunplay for a very long time. As well as a reworked stamina and inventory system. This is 1000 times better than adding new assault rifles and machine guns. These changes will turn the game.