is favoring of donors ethic ?

[FoXiCZEk 1]

i am playing on community server and donators have clothes with modified slots. ( 800 in total jacket + pants + bag). in rules is when you kill donator you can't use it's equipment. my question is if this is ethic against other players. 

[DefectiveWater 539]

So players that pay for servers get special bonuses? That's kinda lame if you ask me... Everyone should have the same opportunity in DayZ.

IF you ask me, that server is trash.

[FoXiCZEk 1]

yes if you'll send money to server owner, they you are donator and you'll receive pack of "donator" clothes. If somebody kill donator you can't take that clothes. you also can't have it in your inventory for some reason ( permanent ban when admin notice it ) 

[DefectiveWater 539]

Meh... trash server.

Best advice? Find a new server.

[William Sternritter 449]

The server offers a service and people who pay for it get it. Not really a question of ethics but rather if you want to play with people who are paying for some kind of advantage? I believe you have more than enough choices to go elsewhere. 

[FoXiCZEk 1]

35 minutes ago, William Sternritter said:

The server offers a service and people who pay for it get it. Not really a question of ethics but rather if you want to play with people who are paying for some kind of advantage? I believe you have more than enough choices to go elsewhere. 

i want to play on CZ/SK servers and it's really hard to find normal one 😄 Most problematic is to find one where admin team have brain 😄

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

Any server that offers players ANY type of advantage is trash.  And yes, I would say if they pay to be put in the front of the line in the queue, that is also an advantage.  People should donate to the server if they like it and want to see it continued to be updated, that is it, period.  Any server that offers any of that crap is giving certain players an advantage... those servers should be avoided like the zombie plague.

Many will disagree with me on the queue thing, but everyone should have the same shot, whether they donate to a server or not.  Some will say, why donate, if you can't play?  Then make the server private only donator's play on that server, now THAT is fine, but if it's open to the puiblic and only certain people get priority, that is crap because that means another player or players got bumped so you could play, we call that cutting in line, and whether you payed the bouncer checking people into the club or not, it's very dickish, reagrdless if some think it's acceptable because Bohemia allows it.

Edited October 12, 2021 by THEGordonFreeman

[-Gews- 7443]

I don't follow these sort of things, but I thought providing gameplay advantage to donors was against monetization rules.
 

Quote

Charging players to access your server, if the fees and associated perks do not affect gameplay in any way, is allowed. Limiting access to only paying players is allowed. Servers with access limited to paying players must be on a different hive, or have rules and settings identical to the freely accessible servers.

Product placement, in-game advertising and sponsorship is allowed. Accepting donations is allowed, but to avoid any doubts: not providing donations must not prevent anyone from accessing the content.

Selling of in-game items, that don’t affect gameplay, and selling of cosmetic perks are allowed. (Applicable only to servers with mods, after modding support has been added to Dayz)

https://www.bohemia.net/monetization

 

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

24 minutes ago, -Gews- said:

I don't follow these sort of things, but I thought providing gameplay advantage to donors was against monetization rules.
 

 

If Bohemia enforced it's monetization rules appropriately, I doubt there would be more than several hundred or so of community servers available.  Many servers SELL priority Queue, which DOES affect gameplay, and DOES disenfranchise players waiting in the queue.

If you've ever sat in a server and wonder why your queue number goes backwards, it's because you were moved back so a priority queue member could get in front of you.  Whether they paid for it or not... who knows unless they explicitly state it.

Edited October 12, 2021 by THEGordonFreeman

[Parazight 1599]

No one cares if it's ethical.  I'll assume you mean legal.

The B.I. legal statement seems pretty ambiguous.  'Gameplay advantage' doesn't seem perfectly clear.   I'm not a server owner so I haven't investigated the rules closely, but I imagine that Bohemia Interactive can shut down any DayZ server at will, essentially.  Basically a safety net to catch naughty servers.

Is it legal to implement a mechanic where you can't loot a t-shirt, with a cool design on it maybe, from a paying server subscriber?  Probably legal.  Honestly, it doesn't sound like the OP's server has done anything wrong.  We're not getting much information here.  Like, maybe tell us which server it is?? 😮  I'm willing to bet that the server admin understands that providing a combat advantage is against the rules.

Quote

The permission is given for a limited time. It will expire on January 31st 2022.

The part that I find interesting has always been this last line.  What happens then?  It reads like all monetization becomes illegal.   

That particular date is interesting.  Maybe because that date marks the start of the first quarter?

[ImpulZ 2491]

On 10/11/2021 at 2:01 PM, FoXiCZEk said:

i am playing on community server and donators have clothes with modified slots. ( 800 in total jacket + pants + bag). in rules is when you kill donator you can't use it's equipment. my question is if this is ethic against other players. 

I suspect strongly that this is against our monetization rules (unfair advantage of high slots for paying users) and recommend to report the server via the contact form at https://www.bohemia.net/monetization. However, the team over there will make the final decision.

General rule is:

1. If you encounter a server offering monetization, that is not listed here, report it to us. They are breaking the rules, any monetization needs to be approved by us.
2. Even if a server is listed as approved, if you are under the impression that the monetization is against our rules, you can still report it. They might've changed their monetization system after being approved.

15 hours ago, THEGordonFreeman said:

Many servers SELL priority Queue

This is allowed under "Charging players to access your server", and gameplay cannot be affected if a player is not on the server.

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

8 hours ago, ImpulZ said:

This is allowed under "Charging players to access your server", and gameplay cannot be affected if a player is not on the server.

I like that qualifier "gameplay cannot be affected is a player is not on the server."  So if you are in PvP, and a restart happens, and those you were PvPing have Priority Access and push ahead of you in the queue to get a better location on you or away from you while you sit in queue DEFINTELY gives those with P.A. A HUGE ADVANTAGE.  It happens, it's happened to me and it happens to others regularly on some of the biggest servers out there.  By getting that advantage, I would argue, P.A. has the real consequence of changing gameplay as it delivers an advantage to those that have it over those that don't if they are in a PvP fight.

I'd gladly like to hear an argument that P.A. does not provide an advantage as it is currently implemented.  How does the other player, with no P.A., overcome tactically being killed from behind when they EVENTUALLY get back in, as the enemy has had the opportunity (because they paid for it) to get behind them and kill them while they are logging in?

Priority Access disenfranchises players that don't have it.

Edited October 13, 2021 by THEGordonFreeman

[ImpulZ 2491]

Server restarts are announced in advance (at least on our official servers and any server has the possibilities to do so), and server restarts happen maybe every 8 hours. Considering these circumstances, being in a position where you engage in PVP knowing a server restart is coming in the next minutes and the restart happening while both of you are alive and the opposing player knows your quite exact position, we consider this an edge case. And even if the priority queue wasn't paid, you still would probably never know if the user who just got the jump on you actually was in priority queue, or just got an earlier slot in the queue.

[Just Caused 423]

13 hours ago, THEGordonFreeman said:

I like that qualifier "gameplay cannot be affected is a player is not on the server."  So if you are in PvP, and a restart happens, and those you were PvPing have Priority Access and push ahead of you in the queue to get a better location on you or away from you while you sit in queue DEFINTELY gives those with P.A. A HUGE ADVANTAGE.  It happens, it's happened to me and it happens to others regularly on some of the biggest servers out there.  By getting that advantage, I would argue, P.A. has the real consequence of changing gameplay as it delivers an advantage to those that have it over those that don't if they are in a PvP fight.

I'd gladly like to hear an argument that P.A. does not provide an advantage as it is currently implemented.  How does the other player, with no P.A., overcome tactically being killed from behind when they EVENTUALLY get back in, as the enemy has had the opportunity (because they paid for it) to get behind them and kill them while they are logging in?

Priority Access disenfranchises players that don't have it.

Just don't play for 15 minutes hoping that the player will go away?

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

On 10/14/2021 at 2:49 AM, ImpulZ said:

Server restarts are announced in advance (at least on our official servers and any server has the possibilities to do so), and server restarts happen maybe every 8 hours. Considering these circumstances, being in a position where you engage in PVP knowing a server restart is coming in the next minutes and the restart happening while both of you are alive and the opposing player knows your quite exact position, we consider this an edge case. And even if the priority queue wasn't paid, you still would probably never know if the user who just got the jump on you actually was in priority queue, or just got an earlier slot in the queue.

So your answer is you should pay attention to the server restart time while in PvP.  And if it happens it's an edge case and it's very unlikely you will know if the player that killed you was actually a priority queue player.

 I like how make one very narrow argument to support a position that it's an edge case.  What is the purpose of Priority Queue?  Why does it exist?  What's its INTENDED function?

[Parazight 1599]

On 10/13/2021 at 2:01 PM, THEGordonFreeman said:

So if you are in PvP, and a restart happens, and those you were PvPing have Priority Access and push ahead of you in the queue to get a better location on you or away from you while you sit in queue DEFINTELY gives those with P.A. A HUGE ADVANTAGE.

This 'huge advantage' can be totally avoided though.

Server crashes are not a huge problem.  This means that server restarts for the servers that B.I. controls are on a predictable schedule.  As an experienced player, you should know, or will learn to know that you have to take this factor into consideration.  You know when the restarts will happen, this makes it your responsibility to avoid this issue.  All MMOs have restarts.  It's predictable and the disadvantage you put yourself at can be avoided, right?

1 hour ago, THEGordonFreeman said:

What's its INTENDED function?

I'm not sure but customers investing money into priority access seems like a great way to retain players and build online communities.  A trivial bonus like priority queueing helps to fund servers more than it hurts servers.  Because restarts are predictable.

[William Sternritter 449]

1 hour ago, Parazight said:

I'm not sure but customers investing money into priority access seems like a great way to retain players and build online communities.  A trivial bonus like priority queueing helps to fund servers more than it hurts servers.  Because restarts are predictable.

I just wonder what happens during scheduled restarts if majority of active players are paying for priority queue? 🙂

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

On 10/15/2021 at 11:47 PM, Parazight said:

This 'huge advantage' can be totally avoided though.

Server crashes are not a huge problem.  This means that server restarts for the servers that B.I. controls are on a predictable schedule.  As an experienced player, you should know, or will learn to know that you have to take this factor into consideration.  You know when the restarts will happen, this makes it your responsibility to avoid this issue............

Planned restarts are META, and as an experienced PvP Player, I will use ANYTHING to get an advantage on another player, including restarts.  My choice on an impending restart is simple, if we are down to the last minute and my opponent quits firing at me, it's time to push, chances are he is sitting down waiting on that 15 second timer for his body to disappear from the server, he is DEAD MEAT.  Or if I know I am against a seasoned player, I may choose to stop firing in that last 60 seconds before the server restarts to allow my opponent to push me, I simply turn the volume up on my headphones and listen for those footsteps and pre-fire as necessary.

That's what a planned restart gets you.  It's super meta, but it's used to gain an advantage, just like P.A.  I have won more fights than I have lost at restarts by utilizing that strategy, but many times you get lost in the moment of trying to stay alive all the way until the server boots you.  And the enemy can use the same strategy prior to restart, so it's FAIR.  P.A. is not fair.  It's not my responsibility to say "OOOOHHHH!  Here comes a restart, better go hide because it's possible the enemy can have P.A. of which I can't do anything about....," while the enemy is on my ass or I know they know about where I am located.  That's the same thing players that subscribe to P.A. do, they pay for the advantage to get into the server before others so they can spot players FIRST.  That is the truth, and nothing more. I've been running servers and taking donations from players without ever using P.A. for years.  P.A. removes the ability to counter the opposing player's knowledge of your whereabouts, but what do I know, it's just an edge case anyway, like vehicles, I guess.  Sounds like they are treating the flying vehicle issue with the same love and care as P.A.  Cars flying?  Nothing to see here, it's just an edge case... move along. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by THEGordonFreeman

[Parazight 1599]

9 hours ago, THEGordonFreeman said:

P.A. is not fair.  It's not my responsibility to say "OOOOHHHH!  Here comes a restart, better go hide because it's possible the enemy can have P.A. of which I can't do anything about....,"

Oh.  But you DO have options.  You have the option to not play on that server.  You have the option to pay for P.A.  Vote with your feet.   Or avoid servers with P.A.    It seems to be a great way to help build communities and fund servers that wouldn't otherwise exist.  You don't seem to like it, and that's fine, but you're not required to play there.

You understand how the system works.  You know how to not get killed because of restarts.  Just apply that tactic.  Maybe you need to realize other options other than logging right back into servers with P.A.

[DefectiveWater 539]

On 10/16/2021 at 5:31 AM, THEGordonFreeman said:

What is the purpose of Priority Queue?  Why does it exist?  What's its INTENDED function?

Supporting servers without direct PVP/gameplay advantages...

It exists because it's the fairest way to monetize and get some money/support by your players (other than straight up donations).

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

8 hours ago, Parazight said:

You understand how the system works.  You know how to not get killed because of restarts.  Just apply that tactic.  Maybe you need to realize other options other than logging right back into servers with P.A.

I haven't played on a server with P.A. for years, but most players are oblivious to the advantages given to those who pay for P.A. and that's why I am using this forum to make sure they know they are at a disadvantage playing on those servers.

[Parazight 1599]

1 hour ago, THEGordonFreeman said:

I haven't played on a server with P.A. for years, but most players are oblivious to the advantages given to those who pay for P.A. and that's why I am using this forum to make sure they know they are at a disadvantage playing on those servers.

So, most players can’t understand what Priority Access means??  How do you know this?  How do you know that ‘most players’ are oblivious??  Where do you get your metrics?  How many of the current player base, to the nearest percent, would you say that don’t understand how this works?  Seems like a straight forward type of concept. 

[William Sternritter 449]

5 hours ago, THEGordonFreeman said:

I haven't played on a server with P.A. for years, but most players are oblivious to the advantages given to those who pay for P.A. and that's why I am using this forum to make sure they know they are at a disadvantage playing on those servers.

Understanding what advantage it gives you is not a problem. I just hope that all servers who allow it properly state it upfront. I'm not sure if you can know who actually has it. Thus making the decision on what to do at restart depends on how lucky you feel I guess. 

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

7 hours ago, William Sternritter said:

Understanding what advantage it gives you is not a problem. I just hope that all servers who allow it properly state it upfront. I'm not sure if you can know who actually has it. Thus making the decision on what to do at restart depends on how lucky you feel I guess. 

You're almost there, William.  There are many popular servers out there that DON'T state they have P.A. enabled.  There's nothing that tells the player if it's being used or not.  Just the server admin's and their "friends" know it, UNLESS they spill it out in a recurring message, or something like Server Panel mod.   But I know factually there are several popular servers that DO NOT SPELL that out for players.  And the only way, you could know it is if you pay close attention to the queue numbers as you sit and wait.  If you get pushed back, they are using P.A.

It's a very shady mechanic, and whatever the "reasons" for it's existence, those that PvP know what advantages it brings on those servers and they use it.  BI acting like it's no big deal does not change the fact that it is used and abused and players should KNOW about and determine if they want to be disadvantaged on a server or not.

12 hours ago, Parazight said:

So, most players can’t understand what Priority Access means??  How do you know this?  How do you know that ‘most players’ are oblivious??  Where do you get your metrics?  How many of the current player base, to the nearest percent, would you say that don’t understand how this works?  Seems like a straight forward type of concept. 

Seriously, are you not listening?  Unless the admin states it being used on the server, then PLAYERS DON'T KNOW IF IT'S BEING USED.  There is nothing to tell them it's in use.  That's why I say watch the queue, if you get pushed back in line, they are using priority access.  They know how it's used and abused, but they get paid so they don't put a disclaimer out there. 

[DefectiveWater 539]

22 minutes ago, THEGordonFreeman said:

It's a very shady mechanic

You are talking about this like it's some gamebreaking exploit that is 1000% Pay2Win and makes you kill everyone on the server instantly while giving you god mode...

If you abuse server restart queue to kill anyone while they are logging in (you join first), with or without Priority queue, you aren't being a fair player.
Not that it's bannable, just not 100% fair, and there's nothing much you can do about it, since it's just how the game works.
Server restarts, you get put into the queue, you may be first, or last, or in the middle...

The solution to this is really simple...
Just avoid server restarts all together, don't engage in PVP during those moments, don't log back in immediately if you have a bad queue number.

Point of Priority queue is not to get you sooner into PVP to kill someone while he's waiting for his loading bar to fill up, it's made primarily for those who... Don't want to wait, like streamers for instance. Who enjoys watching a 15-20 minute silent loading screen stream?

If you can provide better monetization methods, I'm sure BI and server owners would love to hear about it, but for now... chillax a bit.

EDIT:

So if you take worst case scenarios to remove certain features, then you probably also don't want admin tools?
Cuz there IS a possibility that certain shady admin is using it to see through walls and use cheats, right?

So let's remove handy admin tools that are used to track down and ban cheaters and stream snipers and griefers /s

Edited October 20, 2021 by DefectiveWater