The UMP

[awalsh47 200]

While I love the recent damage changes in Dayz making the firearms feel different I think the UMP needs a redressing. In the past it was an excellent mid tier weapon but its fallen off the cliff in the last few patches and completely eclipsed by the mp5 which is far more common.

 

45 Damage is now on par with the 9mm-in the older patches 45 was much more powerful. This damage along with the speed of the 9mm round and being able to found in houses and police stations make the ump far less practical a weapon to carry. The MP5 fires far faster at 900 rounds a minute versus the UMPs 600 rpm making it vastly superior now they both do the same damage.

 

The slower shooting but more damaging ump used to be good alternative to the mp5 but there is no reason at all to bother with it now.

 

Finally, its interesting to note that despite the reduction in the effectiveness of the ump in recent patch notes its still actually counted in stashes and hoarder in the types file on vanilla- this is probably something that should be tweaked as the weapon is so mediocre now it probably shouldn't considering the vastly more powerful ak74u/ak74 and m16s are not.

Edited August 12, 2021 by awalsh47
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[DefectiveWater 491]

34 minutes ago, awalsh47 said:

The MP5 fires far faster at 900 rounds a minute versus the UMPs 600 rpm making it vastly superior now they both do the same damage.

I think that Ingame all guns are bugged to 600 RPM or so, something like that, so that doesn't make any difference.

Quote from another post regarding the issue:

On 2/4/2021 at 2:23 AM, -Gews- said:

On some of them the devs attempted to set the correct rates of fire but there's a bug / improper configuration which means all the automatic weapons in the game are actually capped at 600 rpm, some shoot slower (Saiga/"Vaiga") but none are faster. MP5K, UMP, AK series, M4A1, FAL, VSS, Skorpion, all fire at 600 rpm.

There's also another problem affecting modded weapons where you can't set a rate of fire faster than 900 rpm, except if you want 1800 rpm specifically.

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by DefectiveWater

[awalsh47 200]

Ha! I noticed that on wobos tools actually!

 

If they fix the 600 RPM cap all the same the issue persists all the same. 

[-Gews- 7443]

UMP45 hasn't been better than MP5K since like 0.62. Which was in 2018. The reason MP5K is way better than UMP45 is the recoil. At most they should be similar to each other. MP5K higher tier even. Damage was okay some patches ago at IIRC 34 vs 26 even then a big advantage perhaps from realism. Damage from early DayZ where it was 65% more damage per shot for .45 is way too much. Way devs can balance without too much nonsense at least on official servers is by spawn system. Eg UMP and/or MP5K can spawn regularly with suppressors and optics and other attachments where AKs don't. Pistol suppressor way more common than assault rifle suppressor. Etc.

[Tonyeh 444]

All of the guns need increasing in lethality. Especially the 9mm, because it is absolute fucking shit. I've just put 5 rounds into a new spawn and they didn't put him down.

That's just a load of old bollocks.

[EzyStriderPS4 191]

That’s 9-mil @Tonyeh! Sounds about right. However, it takes three .45ACP rounds to kill military unarmored infected. That’s shit. Should be one or two shots from inside 15 meters (if we had vitals), survivors or infected if unarmored. 5.56 is way too strong out of the 101 and M4, but the M16 feels perfect. The M16 is far more lethal when it comes to stopping power than the tiny M4 IRL because of its optimized barrel length. 5.45 seems like it produces realistic damage but not enough bleeding from yaw effect.

One time I was ambushed at Tisy mil-Base, a fella sprayed me full of 9mm out of the MP5-K point blank. I was unarmored. I fell unconscious with 5 bleeds, then he stood over me and executed me. That was before the shock buffs in recent updates!

[EzyStriderPS4 191]

I am really annoyed by the fact that currently the .308 and Russian equivalent round are so nerfed at long range.. You can’t kill targets reliably at 500-600m as you would be able to in a realistic setting.

[Tonyeh 444]

11 hours ago, EzyStriderPS4 said:

That’s 9-mil @Tonyeh! Sounds about right. However, it takes three .45ACP rounds to kill military unarmored infected. That’s shit. Should be one or two shots from inside 15 meters (if we had vitals), survivors or infected if unarmored. 5.56 is way too strong out of the 101 and M4, but the M16 feels perfect. The M16 is far more lethal when it comes to stopping power than the tiny M4 IRL because of its optimized barrel length. 5.45 seems like it produces realistic damage but not enough bleeding from yaw effect.

One time I was ambushed at Tisy mil-Base, a fella sprayed me full of 9mm out of the MP5-K point blank. I was unarmored. I fell unconscious with 5 bleeds, then he stood over me and executed me. That was before the shock buffs in recent updates!

Nah man. 5 rounds of 9mm should be more than enough put an unarmoured guy down. I know it's a game and all, but seriously. It didn't even stop this guy's stride.

[Riddick_2K 121]

Well... Given that I bought (and play) DayZ for survival against the infected and NOT to fight humans (for this I have Battlefield which is better because it's done on purpose... and it's not even that full of defects 😄 ), so all my tests were done against the Zs, wolves and bears. That are my real "antagonists". Then it is true that we must also defend ourselves, but I always hope that the results are always in proportion... also because, at the moment, I would not even have the possibility of having a "character" up which do the tests.
However...
Regarding the difference between UMP and MP5 as "anti-wolf" (for bears not even a whole 30 magazine is enough) I had done some tests before the introduction of the D-Eeagle, which with its .357 is unbeatable as a personal defense, pity they reduced it... but it's still a good caliber.
Then...
With the MP5 and its 9x16 it took 5 shots to kill a wolf... exaggerated and absurd, like so many things in DayZ: - /
With the UMP and its .45 ACP it took 4 shots to kill a wolf... even this exaggerated and absurd, but you had to imagine it.
And considering that:
The 9x19 is quite common a little everywhere.
The .45 ACP is rare and found only in military areas.
The shot difference to kill a wolf is minimal and I wouldn't trust doing it with just a gun, even if it was a CZ-75 with 15 shots. In theory you could kill 3 wolves and make the others flee... but if you miss a single shot, and I... despite having killed dozens of them at this point, when I have to fight them I'm always a little "agitated" and not all shots go hit... but now I only use the D-Eagle, and now 2 is enough, not 5 or 4.
For the above, I always take an MP5, which is much more widespread and the munitions are found almost everywhere.
If I really have to go to military areas and look for more "rare" weapons, surely my choice goes "beyond" the UMP, at least an AKS-74U that with its "small" 5.45x39 can still be right even with a bear .

And in any case, you must always consider that DayZ is anything but a "realistic game"... it looks like "the festival of the absurd". You don't have to pay attention to the image of the object thinking (hoping) that it "simulates the real object": it does not exist in DayZ. Here it is all absurd, done to the "dick of dog" and "passed off" as "realistic" or "adapted to the game". But it's all rhetoric passed off by these (pseudo) programmers who from what I've seen in the course of my experience in DayZ: either they hate the game... or they hate its players... because most of the bullshit in the game is NOT bugs but "deliberate choices" 😞

Therefore, in DayZ, ALL .22, .38, 9x19 & .45 caliber weapons can ONLY be used to kill Zs with a headshot, considering that Pistol Suppressors are quite findable.
For wolves, get yourself a Desert Eagle which with its .357 is fantastic, 1 dry shot was enough, but it has been reduced and now you need 2. Always a good self defense weapon, and with the suppressors is quite silent.
For the bears, which I have tried for a long time, both in my personal server, and with the Arkensor MOD to do the various tests...
NOTE: I did NOT have time to try 1.13, these results refer to 1.12 (and it's an average of many similar tests below)
The best caliber of all is definitely 7.62x54: kill a bear between 2 and 5 shots, depending on where you get it
Then the 9x39 AP, serving 4 dry shots
Then the 9x39, which serve between 4 and 5...
NOTE: I have found that the VSS wears out faster than the SVD.
Then the 12 with buckshots, between 4 and 6 shots
Then the 12 with slugs, between 6 and 8 shots
NOTE: With a Saiga you go of measurement with the 8 magazine (better with buckshots for safety 😄), now that the 20 one is nowhere to be found.
Then the .308, between 8 and 10 shots
NOTE: The only noteworthy weapon with the .308 is the FAL, which is unobtainable, too bad you only mount the Improvised Supressor which is crap that lasts almost nothing.
Then the .357, between 9 and 10 shots
NOTE: With 1.12 you could kill a bear even with only one magazine ... now it has been reduced (a lot it seems) and I would no longer go to bears with only a D-Eagle... 😞
Then the others to decrease...
5.56x54: between 10 and 22
7.62x39: between 16 and 24
5.45x39: between 17 and 24

I also tried with the 9x19, but you need at least 41 shots... unthinkable to go to bears 😄

ALL this on an original vanilla server with 1.12. I know that the .357 has been reduced, I don't know about other ammunition.
I just hope that the damage produced by the various hits is anyway "proportional" both on the various animals and on the infected and on humans, since I have no way of trying in a "test" situation on human players.
Furthermore, humans have many more "variables" that animals do not have. But for the infected there are military ones with a bulletproof vest (the one with the plates) and military helmets, which can be used for testing.
But I still haven't had time to try everything again with 1.13

In my opinion, however, the general concept remains that:
*) ALL "minor" shots .22, .38, 9x19 & .45 can ONLY be used to kill Zs with a headshot, considering that pistol suppressors are quite findable.
*) The .357 is great for wolves and as an extreme self defense (I always look for a silenced D-Eagle that I keep in the main holster)
*) All other shots can also go for bears... and who does PvP for humans as well... but the "problem" of silencers (or, more exactly, "suppressors") remains, which are rare and not always usable.

This is why I always try to find at least:
*) A MKII like "anti-Z", not very common but not rare either, and the .22 boxes, also quite common, contain 50 rounds. Excellent against the infected, from hidden, with the classic "blow to the head" (this only from 1.13, before 1 single shot would not have been enough; in fact before I didn't even consider it)
*) A D-Eagle as an "anti-wolf" and extreme personal defense... walking around the cities it is not very difficult to find one, the suppressors as well... the box of rounds are quite rare, but with a little patience 2 or 3 is not impossible, and it's always 40-60 shots. To defend himself from wolves and in case of "emergency" he can go.
*) An MP5, as the first submachine gun. Easy to find and refuel... but to be replaced as soon as possible with a more "serious" one in a larger caliber. Generally, if I find I prefer a classic AKM in 7.62x39: good caliber and very common everywhere because it is considered "hunting caliber" (you don't have to look for it in military areas). The real problem is finding a suppressor, otherwise it becomes really difficult to use the weapon. And even with a specific suppressor, if you shoot, it doesn't silence much... because it attracts a fair number of infected in the area. It's not like guns, which hardly anyone hears.
In my experience, probably because many prefer Western weapons and its suppressors "fly off the shelf", with difficulty but I can find the suppressors for AKM, but hardly ever those for M4.
Obviously only on sparsely populated servers. I don't think I even need to write it.
A FAL or a VSS or a VSD, on a public server, I have never even seen ... and in any case, on a public server, I have never even seen a "heli-crash".

For all of the above, and to conclude...
I really don't understand the UMP "problem". They are fundamentally useless weapons, due to the rarity of finding, the rarity (and danger) of supply and the substantial uselessness of the caliber used.
And I don't even understand many of the disquisitions on the various "flaws" of the various calibers, making comparisons with the "real world"... WHEN EVER DayZ was done in a realistic way?!? It's all a fake, absurd and grotesque world... with very little relevance to the "real world"... and I'm not talking about the infected and the pandemic, of course, which is the "fulcrum of the game"... but some objects, too the most banal, it is almost always with characteristics or behaviors that NOTHING have to do with the "real world" and often "justified" with "adaptations to a virtual game world".
FALSE !
Indeed often quite the opposite.
I don't want to go to OT, but just remember the idiotic characteristics of the cars (I'm not talking about bugs, but the power, the gears, the grip of the wheels uphill, etc... all things done on purpose, NOT defects), the backpacks to be emptied to deposit, the tents made increasingly difficult to assemble, the fences that can only be mounted on the flat and not not well placed side by side, the fires that cannot be done in a forest and under 5 meters of the ceiling, and many other bullshit made on purpose , NOT flaws !!!!!
DayZ is a damn fun game with enormous potential, but if you hope to see it "running seriously" on a vanilla server run by B.I. you will die of old age but you will NEVER see it!
I'm sorry to say, because I don't like modded servers (too full of bullshit, is no longer played at DayZ), but the only hope of seeing a "serious" and "almost realistic" DayZ is just to set up a personal server and put in the "right mods".
Is the only way...

Then it is still useful to discuss the various "faults" or "features" of the game in the forum... but NEVER hope to see a "serious and realistic" DayZ on a public vanilla server: YOU WILL NEVER SEE IT!
And, I'm afraid, these (pseudo) programmers will continue to add bullshit, fix some little things, ruin other good and useful things and "peddle rhetoric" in the foruns where people argue and (rightly) complain.
Until it is definitively abandoned.
For that time, however, these (pseudo) programmers could do the best move of their life: give the game to the community of modders, so that they continue it.
In this case it could really make a qualitative leap... but it will depend on who gets their hands on it, because I've seen good modders with good ideas and "poor" modders with "bullshit" in mind. I'd be really curious to see it, anyway.

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Riddick_2K

[EzyStriderPS4 191]

I know what you mean as far as gameplay goes, @Tonyeh. However, 9x19mm is not a round that has much stopping power. It definitely hurts like hell. So the other survivor not even flinching is unrealistic.  Furthermore, there are plenty of accounts of real life situations where people survive having been shot 7 or even 9 times with 9-mil.

[Tonyeh 444]

Well sure, "surviving"...after much hospitalisation no doubt. But I guarantee you that anyone getting hit with a 9mm slug isn't going to be running around like nothing happened. They're not made of foam.

It's just that I think if you hit an unarmoured player numerous times (5 in this case), even with a pistol calibre slug, it should at least lead to a stagger effect and an unconscious state. Now, he must have been gushing blood and needed multiple bandages to stem the flow. But still.

As I said, I understand that it's a game, but the likes of that just shouldn't be happening and all it results in is useless items that players aren't afraid of. Now, I'm not saying that .380 or 9mm should have the same affect as a rifle calibre round, but it certainly needs to be upped in terms of what it can do.

[EzyStriderPS4 191]

I agree @Tonyeh 5 shots should definitely be enough to uncon another survivor with 9x19mm or .380 as far as shock values go.  WOBO on YouTube has good metrics for this kind of stuff, I don't know what the values are for those calibers in-game.

[boggle 36]

The arguing of the realistic damage from pistol rounds all seems off imo. They are pistol rounds, pistols are not super lethal. People die or become incapacitated from gunshots via mass bloodloss, which means a bigger hole, or more holes. So the nitpicking of the 45 vs 9mm is a tale as old as time. 

I think that aside from headshots, unarmored infected or players shouldn't immediately go unconscious or die unless shot at LEAST 3 or 4 times from either 9mm or 45 in the torso, or maybe 5+ in limbs, within rapid succession. Only then do I believe that someone would go unconscious and/or die. Popping someone in the chest with a 9mm rd (unless it was in the heart maybe) isn't going to make them fall over and die. Anyone who has been in any firearms self defense class can attest to this. 

 

Trying to argue which of those two rounds should only require 1 less shot to kill, is pointless and beyond the scope of DayZ. 

 

for those interested, take a look at this: theboxotruth.com

Edited August 24, 2021 by boggle

[Tonyeh 444]

If you get shot with a 9mm round to the chest at less than 50 yards, there's a bloody good chance of you being knocked on your arse and out like a light. A 9mm is not made of foam. It's a bit of metal hitting you at great speed. Sure, there are numerous variables at play as to how the human body would react, but It's certainly nothing to be scoffed at.

A lot of people seem to go around thinking that 9mm or .380 is some sort of harmless BB round. Just because a 9 mil slug isn't a 7.62 rifle round doesn't mean that it isn't dangerous. It will incapacitate you to varying degrees, including death.

As to the size of "holes", you can be shot and it might make a relatively "small hole" entry wound, but internally you could be haemorrhaging profusely. The external hole doesn't really mean all that much and it isn't the only one that leads to blood loss.

[McWendy 675]

To be fair you guys Both make good points. 

It depends mostly on the bullet type.

Not long ago we had fmj 9 mm at my work. I can tell you from experience that I shot a person 3 Times and he still came rushing at me. It was a leg shot followed by a double tap in the stomach. Granted the person was on drugs so that negated a lot of the pain. 

Now we have action effect. Its like a hollow point but not quite. It opens up on impact making sure all of the energy gets unloaded unto the body creating stopping power. Hence knockback. 

Maybe they need to make visible what kind of 9mm it is in game. They probably wont. Same goes for the .45.

But Lets be honest bullet type and gun types are Just badly implemented after the good old 0.63 update. 

[Tonyeh 444]

^

Knockback would be a great addition to the effects on a player from handgun hits. It would make a handgun useful, as opposed to just useful against the infected.

BTW, always surprised that dum dum's are legal in the US, but are banned during an actual war.

[DefectiveWater 491]

7 minutes ago, Tonyeh said:

Knockback would be a great addition to the effects on a player from handgun hits.

Just no. Please no knockback... have you people learned nothing from when they implemented knockback/stagger on pretty much all guns on experimental?

9mm and such shouldn't be anywhere near 2-3 shot to kill, UNLESS we get internal organs..
Maybe make treating gunshot wounds more than just wrapping a bandage? that way getting shot 4 times by 9mm/.45 won't be such a breeze to recover from anymore.

Speaking of gunshot wounds... can we please get the option to attach medkits to belts/vests/backpacks maybe?

Additionally... fix the rate of fire bug (lot's of faster firing guns like M4 and MP5K and plenty of others shoot too slow), please...

[EzyStriderPS4 191]

On 8/24/2021 at 12:39 PM, boggle said:

The arguing of the realistic damage from pistol rounds all seems off imo. They are pistol rounds, pistols are not super lethal. People die or become incapacitated from gunshots via mass bloodloss, which means a bigger hole, or more holes. So the nitpicking of the 45 vs 9mm is a tale as old as time. 

Dude, so much misinformation here...

.22 won't puncture your skull.  .380 has less muzzle energy than 9x19mm, which has less muzzle energy than .45ACP.

In WW II soldiers were issued .45 COLT pistols because they could incapacitate or kill with one shot, center-mass.  The G.I.'s were not issued .380 Long cartridges for a reason...

The FN 5.7 pistol round is lethal with one shot center-mass; and can be armor piercing against IIIA armors and lesser gear.  (not in the game, but clearly effective.)  What does "super lethal" even mean?  Either it is or it isn't!

Edited August 25, 2021 by EzyStriderPS4

[EzyStriderPS4 191]

6 hours ago, DefectiveWater said:

Just no. Please no knockback... have you people learned nothing from when they implemented knockback/stagger on pretty much all guns on experimental?

Completely agree that the implementation was awful!

However, it could be far more subtle.  Especially if the other person is ADS. The flinching effect should negate being able to maintain aim.

Maybe a little limp when you get shot in the leg or more gun sway if shot in the arm?  Kinda brings Fallout to mind with their limb damage system... (which was certainly far from perfect)

Edited August 25, 2021 by EzyStriderPS4

[Parazight 1594]

On 8/12/2021 at 7:03 AM, awalsh47 said:

While I love the recent damage changes in Dayz making the firearms feel different I think the UMP needs a redressing. In the past it was an excellent mid tier weapon but its fallen off the cliff in the last few patches and completely eclipsed by the mp5 which is far more common.

Who cares.

As Gews said, the balancing is in the spawn system.  UMP45 and MP5K are basically the same firearm.  It's a small damage difference and it's really not that important.  Your tactics, nearby infected, ammo rarity, location, goals/targets, and what handgun you're using are more important factors in DayZ.  More important than the small damage difference between those two submachine guns.

I would never choose the mp5k or the ump45 over a real assault rifle anyway.   A player will pick up either one if they have nothing.  How long will it be before you find a real assault rifle anyway?  It doesn't seem practical (or possible, really) to analyze and compare the two in a vacuum.

If you're going up against players then you don't want to be debating which submachine gun you're going to use.  You get what you can take and then work towards and optimal load-out (assault rifle), right?

[Tonyeh 444]

On official it could be, literally, months before you get your hands on a real assault rifle due to the fact that the CLE gets fucked up by all the hoarders.

[Parazight 1594]

No way.  It's not hard to find assault rifles on Official servers.  Top tier weapons, that are buried, don't count against respawn values.  Find a chopper crash or plan looting accordingly.   It is definitely not hard to get an assault rifle, especially when I group up with friends.  M16A2 and AK47u both spawn all over.  Easy to find.  It will be literally hours before I get an AR after respawn.  Hoarders are non issues.  Raid their base or just farm loot.

 

'CLE' is archaic terminology.  Referring to it doesn't help make points.  The CE controls more than just loot.

[Tonyeh 444]

Whatever.

All I can tell you is that when I was playing on official last year, it took me months to actually find an assault rifle. I had to server hop to a low pop persistence off US map to find an AK. They were impossible to find on any of the EU servers. I play only on private servers now and it's a better experience.

Also the AK47u is a carbine, not an assault rifle, and it's easily the worst of the AK family. It's not subject to the restrictions that the actual assault rifles are in the game, which is why it's easy to find. But there's no comparison to it and a proper AK rifle.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Tonyeh

[Riddick_2K 121]

I don't know if it's a Google translation problem, but the AK74U is an assault rifle, not a carbine... and it's not to be despised even if it's the smallest of the brood. You can keep it inside the backpack, instead of the MP5, without occupying the slots in the back and without being noticed and with its 5.45x39 you can take out a bear with 17/24 shots, which with the 7.62x39 of the AKM you need 16/24... practically irrelevant difference... at least in my experience. The only real problem is that they are rare bullets to find and only in military areas, while the 7.62x39 of the AKM can be found almost everywhere, because it is considered hunting ammunition. And it is not something to be underestimated. And for me who don't use Russian optics (I don't like them) and I don't do anything as a "sniper", I prefer the short version to the long one.

AND...

The real "hoarder problem" is that these programmers have put these 2 flags "count_in_cargo" & "count_in_hoarder" which are the real culprits for the absence of certain weapons. It is these 2 flags that block the respawn of certain weapons even if they are only deposited or hidden by someone... and considering that their number is very limited, just one player is enough to find an M4 with Suppressor, duplicate another 7 and hide them and in that server you will NEVER see any M4 and any Standardized Suppressor again (for this last the maximum is 5, not 8).
Same goes for the AKM and the Normalized Suppressor
This is the real problem, which these programmers don't understand and/or never play this game.
As I have already written several times it seems that they hate this game or its players... for how they are handling it.

[Parazight 1594]

 

On 8/26/2021 at 11:36 AM, Tonyeh said:

Whatever.

All I can tell you is that when I was playing on official last year, it took me months to actually find an assault rifle. I had to server hop to a low pop persistence off US map to find an AK. They were impossible to find on any of the EU servers. I play only on private servers now and it's a better experience.

Also the AK47u is a carbine, not an assault rifle, and it's easily the worst of the AK family. It's not subject to the restrictions that the actual assault rifles are in the game, which is why it's easy to find. But there's no comparison to it and a proper AK rifle.

Those servers were actually persistence ON.  They eventually addressed the issue.  

 

The AKS-74u is a shortened assault rifle or a carbine, depending on who you ask, it seems. WIKI will call it a carbine, but they're no authority.  The point was that the 74u is about the same tier as the M16A2.  It's not endgame.  They're not Tier 4 zone weapons.  It's a great comparison, when you consider rarity.