Melee is WAY too slow

[NachoNinjaGnome 28]

Now, I've only played this experimental a little so far but, so far, there's a HUGE change that should have gone the other way.  Why has the melee been slowed down SO much?  The melee from stable is already slower than a normal person.  It should not take a full second to swing an axe.  Realistically, we should be able to swing an axe, at least, twice per second, if not thrice.  These characters are survivors of a zombie apocalypse... not the incapable masses that succumbed to the initial chaos.  We shouldn't be dealing with inability when most of us could swing an axe better from the sitting position we take behind our computers.  We're swinging at zombie heads, not chopping wood.  I could understand if we were trying to break down a door or something.  In such instances, you would wind up and give it everything you've got.  It doesn't take swings like that to kill a person, much less a rotting, animated corpse.

Just some food for thought...

 - NNG

[NachoNinjaGnome 28]

Guess I spoke too soon... just played a bit more and found the combo possibility.  Took some toying around with, but I started to get the hang of it.  Just one problem now though.  For some reason, the character flings himself around wildly while swinging.  I prefer to be in control of my own movement.  Fighting is NOT that difficult in real life, why would they make the camera and the character move around so much.  It's a convoluted system for such a simplistic action.  Also, for some reason, I can't pull out my axe when I have something in my hands.  It was an easy obstacle in the previous build.  Just drop what you've got in your hands.  The 'G' key no longer has that effect.  Have to hit 'Tab', click, drag, 'Tab' again, hold right click, then swing.  Pfft.  Just died because of it.  That and because a zombie phased through a wall.  I shut myself in shed just so I could safely drop something from my hands so I could engage said zombie.  I know experimental always has some kinks, but this just seems like a giant leap backwards.

[Guy Smiley 534]

Yes, we are all trained in the art of axe swinging.  Go out and swing an axe in real life and you'll see that you aren't a samurai 

[exacomvm 101]

Have you tried the quickbar for switching to axe?
About the swinging, maybe you could swing it 2 times in a sec but it would not be that damaging.

[NachoNinjaGnome 28]

On 8/9/2018 at 5:22 PM, Guy Smiley said:

Yes, we are all trained in the art of axe swinging.  Go out and swing an axe in real life and you'll see that you aren't a samurai 

Never claimed to be a "samurai", but I have trained in martial arts (both armed and unarmed) for over 30 years.  In fact, I used to teach other people how to fight with sword, spear, staff, knife (and yes) axe, as well as various other weapon arts.  Before succumbing to crippling arthritis, I am quite certain I could easily swing a splitting axe three times per second, accurately and with enough force to split a skull, if not four times.  That's why I went for the 2-3 times instead of 3-4.  I would assume that one of these survivors is, at least, "proficient" at skills needed to survive a zombie apocalypse.  I'm not looking for expert, or even master, level martial arts ability, but certainly that of someone adept at killing zombies.

[NachoNinjaGnome 28]

19 hours ago, exacomvm said:

Have you tried the quickbar for switching to axe?
About the swinging, maybe you could swing it 2 times in a sec but it would not be that damaging.

Yes... the quickbar doesn't pull a weapon unless your hands are empty.

Also, if you're swinging it faster, it's going to hit harder.   Force = Mass * Speed

[Guy Smiley 534]

4 minutes ago, NachoNinjaGnome said:

Never claimed to be a "samurai", but I have trained in martial arts (both armed and unarmed) for over 30 years.  In fact, I used to teach other people how to fight with sword, spear, staff, knife (and yes) axe, as well as various other weapon arts.  Before succumbing to crippling arthritis, I am quite certain I could easily swing a splitting axe three times per second, accurately and with enough force to split a skull, if not four times.  That's why I went for the 2-3 times instead of 3-4.  I would assume that one of these survivors is, at least, "proficient" at skills needed to survive a zombie apocalypse.  I'm not looking for expert, or even master, level martial arts ability, but certainly that of someone adept at killing zombies.

Oh yes, I've been training for years myself for the zombie apocalypse.   Come one dude, I get what you're saying but average Joe would seriously hurt himself trying to swing an axe in the way that you're saying.

[Parazight 1599]

On 8/9/2018 at 4:25 PM, NachoNinjaGnome said:

 Realistically, we should be able to swing an axe, at least, twice per second, if not thrice. 

Possibly true.

Finding the right balance by considering multiple game factors will be paramount here.  Player health pool, infected hp, infected attack speed, infected attack damage, infected awareness levels, number of infected nearby, damage levels of various weapons, and stamina are but a few things the team needs to consider while balancing melee combat.  The combat has to be balanced, it doesn't really have to be realistic.  In fact, making it realistic probably isn't ideal.  God forbid we have to resort to the Global Cooldown.

Re: item switching.  I do hope that they find a great solution for when you need a melee weapon in hand RIGHT NOW.  Players have had complaints about losing items due to switching items in hand.  Sometimes there's room in your bag, sometimes items got dropped.  There is no simple solution.  I'm sure a simple and elegant solution would be appreciated, but what is it?

[exacomvm 101]

4 hours ago, NachoNinjaGnome said:

Yes... the quickbar doesn't pull a weapon unless your hands are empty.

Also, if you're swinging it faster, it's going to hit harder.   Force = Mass * Speed

Thats true for bullets, but not with an axe.  Hitting with axe fast would be the same as holding sharp-ish piece of metal and punching with it.
Well unless you have incredible strenght so that axe is like thin stick for you that would be true.

With something like hatchet i believe u can swing it like u want, but im talking about something like Firefighters axe which is over 2-3kg and its fkn long.
The only way of swinging it multiple times is holding it on top like here ( actually it could be fast attack animation holding it like with two hands etc ) : https://youtu.be/c1Ke3E_9r-k?t=1m27s 

Edited August 11, 2018 by exacomvm

[NachoNinjaGnome 28]

5 hours ago, Guy Smiley said:

Oh yes, I've been training for years myself for the zombie apocalypse.   Come one dude, I get what you're saying but average Joe would seriously hurt himself trying to swing an axe in the way that you're saying.

I'm not expecting the "average Joe" to have "above average" combat capability.  I'm expecting that a zombie apocalypse would have killed off the average Joe's, adding them to the hordes of the dead.  The survivors would be of above average ability.  I'm not talking about your 1 in a million "master level" fighters or anything, just your 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 naturally gifted individuals.  The sort of people who pick things up quickly and constantly improve on an incremental basis.

[NachoNinjaGnome 28]

2 hours ago, Parazight said:

Possibly true.

Finding the right balance by considering multiple game factors will be paramount here.  Player health pool, infected hp, infected attack speed, infected attack damage, infected awareness levels, number of infected nearby, damage levels of various weapons, and stamina are but a few things the team needs to consider while balancing melee combat.  The combat has to be balanced, it doesn't really have to be realistic.  In fact, making it realistic probably isn't ideal.  God forbid we have to resort to the Global Cooldown.

Re: item switching.  I do hope that they find a great solution for when you need a melee weapon in hand RIGHT NOW.  Players have had complaints about losing items due to switching items in hand.  Sometimes there's room in your bag, sometimes items got dropped.  There is no simple solution.  I'm sure a simple and elegant solution would be appreciated, but what is it?

I understand the importance of game balance, as well as all the associated factors of consideration.  The issue is though, why would you want to balance other factors around poor combat performance rather than good combat performance.  These are die hard survivors, not meek little cannon fodder.  They should perform closer to the bad asses of a zombie apocalypse that would actually still be living after the dead have become the mass majority of the world's population.  We've all played the fast paced, high intensity shooters and fighting games that have made gaming such an enjoyable experience.  When a game slows things down to an unrealistic degree, it really gives the immersion factor a huge hit and kind of ruins the experience.

As for a simple solution, they already had it in the last build.  You're running along with a full load of loot, got a backpack, tent, tire, barrel, etc. in your hands and need to pull your axe to deal with an aggro, you drop the object in your hands at your feet (though, slightly to the side) and pull your weapon as if there wasn't anything there to begin with.  Now, granted, you could add a bit of an additional animation for tossing it to the side to mitigate the obvious advantage of carrying additional loot, adding a slight delay to the weapon pull animation.  They even managed to eliminate the game breaking bug (for the most part) of your dropped items disappearing completely.  All that they need to do to improve it is to fix the bug where you have an invisible item in your hands when dragging something from the ground to swap with your held item and have to re-log to see and interact with it.

[NachoNinjaGnome 28]

2 hours ago, exacomvm said:

Thats true for bullets, but not with an axe.  Hitting with axe fast would be the same as holding sharp-ish piece of metal and punching with it.
Well unless you have incredible strenght so that axe is like thin stick for you that would be true.

With something like hatchet i believe u can swing it like u want, but im talking about something like Firefighters axe which is over 2-3kg and its fkn long.
The only way of swinging it multiple times is holding it on top like here ( actually it could be fast attack animation holding it like with two hands etc ) : https://youtu.be/c1Ke3E_9r-k?t=1m27s 

It's true for all objects, axe included.  Hitting fast with anything is about short, quick, direct movements.  If you're trying to hack through an armored opponent, sure, you'll want a full swing, but for the decaying dead, short and sweet would be more than adequate.  The way he's holding the axe is, basically, what you want, though you don't need to choke up THAT much.  Only, instead of drawing back (adding an unnecessary movement), you swing side to side like they have the combo system configured now, just quicker.  It's not about strength... it's about controlled, fluid motion.  With a two handed technique, you have a LOT of control over where each part of the weapon is going at any given moment.  I wish I had the means to make my own demonstrative video to show you what I mean, but I'm poor, disabled, haven't practiced in years and would probably hurt myself doing the demo.  I have, however, done some slight searching through Youtube and found a video that can help to demonstrate what I am trying to explain. 

Now, keep in mind, these people aren't using the exact technique that I am referring to, but from what they are doing and what I have explained, you should be able to visualize my intended meaning.  Check out the girl at 2:25 of the following video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUYXceCWRTQ  and she isn't even swinging very fast and has both hands at the bottom end.  Then, check the guy at 3:30 doing his little awkward looking combos.  He's not even choked up as much as he could and he's swinging even faster, though you can tell he's holding back as not to hurt his demo volunteer.  Now, with the forehand closer to the head of the axe, you can swing even faster.  And with more fluid technique, your speed increase would be compounded.  These two individuals are very average in their technique and ability.  You could see how someone on the higher end of the spectrum might perform.

 

 

[exacomvm 101]

42 minutes ago, NachoNinjaGnome said:

Now, keep in mind, these people aren't using the exact technique that I am referring to, but from what they are doing and what I have explained, you should be able to visualize my intended meaning.  Check out the girl at 2:25 of the following video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUYXceCWRTQ  and she isn't even swinging very fast and has both hands at the bottom end. 

 

Well, in this example it would be harmless for a human, it probs would cut skin and cause severe bleeding, but its not strong enough to crack the skull for example especially considering that axe's arent razors, they're pretty dull also that the axe is pretty much swingin on its own without any "support" force that will help to get higher penetration power also if she would hit something with these swings the axe most likely would fall from her hands or more likely would totally stop the fluid movement so she would have to start over + considering it would do barely any damage she probs would be already eaten by Z . I've tried some time ago to cut decaying bones with an axe ( from animals of some sort ) you still need pretty good force usually full upper swing to break it apart. However back then i was not rly tough + teenager.

This is something more realistic: 

Also keep in mind that these martial arts doesn't translate well into real world scenario, they have "art" in a name for a reason, its more for entertainment, ofcourse its way better than nothing, but for example i doubt that some fancy ninja with his fancy and stylish movements would take down someone who have trained Krav Maga.

Good example: 

Also in real life zombie bones/skulls would not be that weak like in TWD. 

Edited August 11, 2018 by exacomvm

[NachoNinjaGnome 28]

9 hours ago, exacomvm said:

Well, in this example it would be harmless for a human, it probs would cut skin and cause severe bleeding, but its not strong enough to crack the skull for example especially considering that axe's arent razors, they're pretty dull also that the axe is pretty much swingin on its own without any "support" force that will help to get higher penetration power also if she would hit something with these swings the axe most likely would fall from her hands or more likely would totally stop the fluid movement so she would have to start over + considering it would do barely any damage she probs would be already eaten by Z . I've tried some time ago to cut decaying bones with an axe ( from animals of some sort ) you still need pretty good force usually full upper swing to break it apart. However back then i was not rly tough + teenager.

This is something more realistic: 

(Youtube video #1)

Also keep in mind that these martial arts doesn't translate well into real world scenario, they have "art" in a name for a reason, its more for entertainment, ofcourse its way better than nothing, but for example i doubt that some fancy ninja with his fancy and stylish movements would take down someone who have trained Krav Maga.

Good example: 

(Youtube video #2)

Also in real life zombie bones/skulls would not be that weak like in TWD. 

Way to pick and choose your arguments... :p

Obviously, the girl swinging isn't generating a lot of force.  Hence the phrase. "and she isn't even swinging very fast".  And I don't really know the girl, so I can't say whether she's got any significant combat skill for such a survival scenario.  She was doing a demo, and a demo is what was needed to help present the argument.  Most demonstrations, as well as choreographed fights, are slowed for the purposes of allowing the audience to see the movements.  In an actual fight, with trained combatants, the majority of movements happen at speeds that the average person can't process.  And it REALLY doesn't take much force to cave in or crush a skull at all.  With an axe, you don't need a razor edge.  The axe is a splitting/crushing weapon, not a slashing/cutting weapon.  Considering the human skull can receive a compound fracture from a well placed, well thrown punch, more than enough force could be provided by a short, quick swing with an axe, especially considering the concentration of force at the point of impact.  If you look at the second person I pointed out, you can see that he is providing enough force to do some serious damage to a skull, and he's holding back and has some fairly shoddy technique.

And yes, Dmitri does display another effective technique, but that's not the technique I was describing, which is why I didn't include that very same video that appears at the top of an "axe fighting" search on Youtube.  While effective in open spaces, it's not exactly something that can be done in close quarters.

Also, "martial arts doesn't translate well into real world scenario"?  ... ...  Martial arts DO, in fact, translate into real world scenarios as they were made for real world combat.  Granted, so showy styles such as Wushu and Tae Kwon Do aren't as effective as styles such as Bushidokan , Muay Thai and Krav Maga (yes, that's also a "martial art").  They have "art" in the name because, back in the day, the word "art" was used to describe a proficient and applied knowledge.  We've only had terms like "science" in recent history.  "Martial Arts" is often referred to as "Combat Science" in more modern descriptions.

Also-also yes :p the phrase "don't bring a knife to a gunfight" is a common phrase due to dumb asses like that standing still when a gun is pulled.  It's like the bet I had with a buddy years ago who wanted to make a similar argument.  I informed him that, under the right circumstances, a knife can be just as effective, if not more-so.  To prove the point, I handed him a "handgun-style" paintball gun with holster (my buddy used to play with an old toy revolver when he was younger and could do all the little tricks and was a fairly decent quick draw).  I grabbed a small paint brush, dipped it in some left over paint from a recent renovation and said, "bet I can hit you before you hit me".  I closed the distance and put the paintbrush to his throat before he could even touch the handle.  He argued, "I wasn't ready... if we're going to showdown, you gotta do it right."  So, I backed up a good few feet and said, "alright, draw".  I flung the brush and hit him in the forehead before he even "cleared leather".

Now, you can make all the arguments about how "average" people can't do this or that but, I will still maintain that these survivors are not "average".  Nobody wants to play a game representing average people.  We want bad ass, epic heroes of the apocalypse that lend a sense of grandeur to grant temporary escape from our average lives.  That's what video games are for.

[Parazight 1599]

Okay, so the premise of DayZ is that everyone was exposed to the infection and those who weren't turned are naturally immune to it.  Players take the role of those who are lucky enough to be unaffected.  Those who turned to zeds are not just weaker humans, thus, players are not super-human.

The danger with making melee combat too strong is that it then turns the meta into a devolution of zig-zagging hip-firing/directional pointing ambush tactics or long range sniping.  Mid-range combat with lower level firearms becomes a much more non-viable alternative. 

Now, I realize that movement and swing speed are different, but they still affect one another.  Maybe the best advice is to wait until all of the combat mechanics and player controller functions are all up and running before evaluating combat balance.

Personally, in .62 stable, it sure feels like you're on equal footing with someone who is armed with a gun, and at 20 meters away whereas the person with the handgun should logically have an advantage.  .63 isn't perfectly balanced yet, but it just doesn't seem like you can take a solid gamble and ignore firearms as much.

[-Gews- 7443]

War axe:




Splitting axe:


Big difference and for a reason, too.

Characters doing those side to side swings don't look too terribly slow to me.
 

[NachoNinjaGnome 28]

6 hours ago, Parazight said:

Okay, so the premise of DayZ is that everyone was exposed to the infection and those who weren't turned are naturally immune to it.  Players take the role of those who are lucky enough to be unaffected.  Those who turned to zeds are not just weaker humans, thus, players are not super-human.

The danger with making melee combat too strong is that it then turns the meta into a devolution of zig-zagging hip-firing/directional pointing ambush tactics or long range sniping.  Mid-range combat with lower level firearms becomes a much more non-viable alternative. 

Now, I realize that movement and swing speed are different, but they still affect one another.  Maybe the best advice is to wait until all of the combat mechanics and player controller functions are all up and running before evaluating combat balance.

Personally, in .62 stable, it sure feels like you're on equal footing with someone who is armed with a gun, and at 20 meters away whereas the person with the handgun should logically have an advantage.  .63 isn't perfectly balanced yet, but it just doesn't seem like you can take a solid gamble and ignore firearms as much.

Ah... never knew what the premise was, but, again, not asking for super humans, just humans with significant ability.  It's just frustrating to swing and miss all over the place when fighting zombies.  Swinging an axe is not difficult, but the game makes it so.  Also, I wasn't evaluating combat balance yet, was merely suggesting that you actually be able to hold your own against zombies before they balanced the rest of the combat system around a nicely polished melee system.  Better to build on a solid foundation than a heap of crap.  And before I get all the haters twisting my words, that was a metaphor for the melee system, not DayZ itself.  I wouldn't be on here giving "Suggestions" if I thought it was.

[NachoNinjaGnome 28]

6 hours ago, -Gews- said:

War axe:

(image)

Splitting axe:

(image)

Big difference and for a reason, too.

Characters doing those side to side swings don't look too terribly slow to me.
 

 

"don't look TOO terribly slow"?... so, just a little slow then?  so why not normalize the speed?

[NachoNinjaGnome 28]

Seems like everyone is hung up on the discussion about speed, where I even stated that it's not too bad, but could use a little boost.  My biggest issue, right now, is that the characters swing wildly and uncontrolled, causing them to move all over the damn place.  If I'm not moving the WASD keys, I shouldn't be moving my feet.

Also, the issue with not being able to drop what's in your hands in order to pull your melee weapon.

Edited August 12, 2018 by NachoNinjaGnome

[Parazight 1599]

5 hours ago, NachoNinjaGnome said:

Ah... never knew what the premise was, but, again, not asking for super humans, just humans with significant ability.  It's just frustrating to swing and miss all over the place when fighting zombies.  Swinging an axe is not difficult, but the game makes it so.  Also, I wasn't evaluating combat balance yet, was merely suggesting that you actually be able to hold your own against zombies before they balanced the rest of the combat system around a nicely polished melee system.  Better to build on a solid foundation than a heap of crap.  And before I get all the haters twisting my words, that was a metaphor for the melee system, not DayZ itself.  I wouldn't be on here giving "Suggestions" if I thought it was.

If you plan ahead properly, you can take on 2-3 zeds, with your bare fists, and never get hit.  Took me half a game play session to figure it out.  Being able to block effectively makes combat ridiculously easy versus the infected.  Be mindful of the loot you carry and you'll never have issues with having to drop things in order to fight.  Additionally, surviving the pve elements, such as the infected, will never be difficult.  People will always be able to figure out the AI.  The real question will always be human vs human, which requires a holistic approach to combat, not just a focus on melee combat, hence my previous post.

[NachoNinjaGnome 28]

7 hours ago, Parazight said:

If you plan ahead properly, you can take on 2-3 zeds, with your bare fists, and never get hit.  Took me half a game play session to figure it out.  Being able to block effectively makes combat ridiculously easy versus the infected.  Be mindful of the loot you carry and you'll never have issues with having to drop things in order to fight.  Additionally, surviving the pve elements, such as the infected, will never be difficult.  People will always be able to figure out the AI.  The real question will always be human vs human, which requires a holistic approach to combat, not just a focus on melee combat, hence my previous post.

Yeah, I wasn't aware that I was even blocking for quite awhile.  Took me a good few minutes just to figure out how to swing with the new system.  I just thought that you had to hold down right click in order to swing with left click, which you do, just didn't know that the combat stance was an auto-block.  Haven't really had much of a chance to use it though.  If you sneak up on a zombie, you can kill it before it even turns around.  My issue is when you get aggro you don't see coming and have to whip around to engage an already swinging zombie.  Which, the initial aggro usually, results in additional aggro.  Then you've got two or three zombies swinging wildly at you while you're swinging wildly and stepping into their swings.  Then there's the hits you take that don't appear to touch you which, often, don't result in any sort of hit indication.  In such scenarios, I've found, I often take enough hits to cripple me without even realizing that I got hit because of the lack of hit indicators as well as the screen bouncing around as wildly as the character.

All I'm asking for is a character with a decent degree of competence in melee fighting.  With the current combat system, I feel like a kid from a movie or tv show getting in his first fight, ever, and not knowing how to do it (which was not at all how my first RL fight went).  My first fight that I ever got in was my first day of first grade.  An older kid, who towered over me by about a foot and must have outweighed me by 15-20 pounds, ran up behind me and tried to tackle me.  I had seen him running towards me from across the field and paid him no mind.  I then heard the rapid footsteps behind me, looked to right side peripheral without turning my head, saw fingertips, grabbed his wrist with my left and upper arm with my right and hip tossed him.  My friends said he caught some significant air, showing me a length of about a foot with their hands that they said was the approximate spacing between our heads at his most vertical.  So, me, a little, ignorant, untrained 6-year old was able to flip a significantly larger 8-year old without even watching his approach.  If I could do that then, there's no reason these survivors should have such a hard time swinging an axe.