Should the VSS vintores fit into a backpack or get a buff?

[Salty seadog 125]

The VSS is my favourite weapon, and I was stoked when I heard it would make it into this game. But I think it needs to be looked at heavily. (On a side note, I feel its always best to have your hands free, so you can pickup an enemies loot or weapon and bring it to your stash, or pick up a fallen allies weapon. Even just use a pistol/grenade/ medical supplies without losing a gun mid firefight. So im basing my balance around the assumptions that most players will play like this, for the reasons stated)

.

Currently, I feel this weapon is in the same place as the izh 18, and I think it needs to be classed as a rare SMG, and occupy the same amount of space. It performs like an SMG, just with slightly higher damage, but with much lower bullet velocity, mag size, and versatility. I love the VSS, but I would pick the UMP over this weapon for every possible combat scenario.

By using this VSS, you are severely gimping your effective range by a huge margin, for no gain. Why would you ever use this gun, when you can carry a bolt action, assault rifle or LMG, while also carrying a pistol, smg or sawnoff in your backpack? You cant carry heaps of ammo for it either. Ammo is extremely rare( I dont think its currently spawning though).

And with all the new high end weapons on the way, and the plethora of great weapon combinations that will come from that, why would anyone ever wilfully use this gun? Even when it first realesed and there was mountains of ammo for it, the people I play with just thew it in the creek for an AK.

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I think it should be classes as an SMG, and occupy the same amount of spaces, otherwise I fear it will never be used by anyone and remain useless.

Anyway, what are your thoughts? Cheers

Edited August 1, 2016 by Salty seadog

[Funkmaster Rick 373]

Honestly, I think it ought to be able to be disassembled, like the Trumpet; if I recall correctly, it was actively designed to break down for transportation and storage in a small briefcase.

[-Gews- 7443]

It should not get a 'buff', it should be 'nerfed'. That may not be popular but the game is supposed to be at least somewhat realistic. Given its real life specifications, it's clearly much too powerful.

This weapon's 9x39 SP-6 ammunition has a 'hit' value of 11, making it 34% more powerful than the 7.62x39 weapons and 84% as powerful as .308/7.62x54R. That's about the same level of damage as one would give to full-power rifle cartridges producing around 3000 J—for example, .303 British, 7x57 Mauser, .260 Remington, etc—from full-length barrels.

9x39 is not a full-power rifle cartridge, it's a subsonic version of an intermediate cartridge. It produces only 600-700 J. Yes, it has a fairly big bullet, but even so, that much damage isn't justified. It's not even close to a .303. In addition it already loses very little damage over range. At 200 m the damage advantage has increased to around 70% more than the 7.62x39.

5 hours ago, Salty seadog said:

I think it should be classes as an SMG, and occupy the same amount of spaces, otherwise I fear it will never be used by anyone and remain useless.

The VSS has a length of 35.2 inches. In comparison to a few other weapons:

VSS Vintorez: 35.2"
AKM: 34.6"
M4 Carbine, stock extended: 33"
Steyr Aug: 31.1"

So no, it should not be able to fit inside a backpack as is. But see Rick's comment above...

4 hours ago, Funkmaster Rick said:

Honestly, I think it ought to be able to be disassembled, like the Trumpet; if I recall correctly, it was actively designed to break down for transportation and storage in a small briefcase.

Yep! VSS has buttons on stock and suppressor which allow it to be easily taken apart. However, if they allow disassembly of more modular weapons, this ability should not apply only to the Vintorez. Hopefully the models can be easily rearranged to make disassembled versions.

5 hours ago, Salty seadog said:

By using this VSS, you are severely gimping your effective range by a huge margin, for no gain. Why would you ever use this gun, when you can carry a bolt action, assault rifle or LMG, while also carrying a pistol, smg or sawnoff in your backpack? You cant carry heaps of ammo for it either. Ammo is extremely rare( I dont think its currently spawning though).

And with all the new high end weapons on the way, and the plethora of great weapon combinations that will come from that, why would anyone ever wilfully use this gun? Even when it first realesed and there was mountains of ammo for it, the people I play with just thew it in the creek for an AK.

Well, why would they choose it? The gun has a very specific purpose. Combat in DayZ is usually against solo players or very small groups, it often takes place in fairly open and unplanned locations, and there's no rubble, smoke, noise of artillery, jets, distant gunfire, etc. Players also sprint around like crazy which doesn't favor lower-velocity rounds. Not much advantage to the VSS there. Even if they introduced disassembly (which is a good idea) in how many situations would people bother with that? Especially if it required an animation with a realistic time frame. Most players will choose weapons that make better all-around combat rifles. I don't see a particular problem.

[Red_Ensign 990]

ammo is spawning - I have some I picked up not long ago.

[Salty seadog 125]

13 hours ago, -Gews- said:

It should not get a 'buff', it should be 'nerfed'. That may not be popular but the game is supposed to be at least somewhat realistic. Given its real life specifications, it's clearly much too powerful.

This weapon's 9x39 SP-6 ammunition has a 'hit' value of 11, making it 34% more powerful than the 7.62x39 weapons and 84% as powerful as .308/7.62x54R. That's about the same level of damage as one would give to full-power rifle cartridges producing around 3000 J—for example, .303 British, 7x57 Mauser, .260 Remington, etc—from full-length barrels.

9x39 is not a full-power rifle cartridge, it's a subsonic version of an intermediate cartridge. It produces only 600-700 J. Yes, it has a fairly big bullet, but even so, that much damage isn't justified. It's not even close to a .303. In addition it already loses very little damage over range. At 200 m the damage advantage has increased to around 70% more than the 7.62x39.

The VSS has a length of 35.2 inches. In comparison to a few other weapons:

VSS Vintorez: 35.2"
AKM: 34.6"
M4 Carbine, stock extended: 33"
Steyr Aug: 31.1"

So no, it should not be able to fit inside a backpack as is. But see Rick's comment above...

Yep! VSS has buttons on stock and suppressor which allow it to be easily taken apart. However, if they allow disassembly of more modular weapons, this ability should not apply only to the Vintorez. Hopefully the models can be easily rearranged to make disassembled versions.

Well, why would they choose it? The gun has a very specific purpose. Combat in DayZ is usually against solo players or very small groups, it often takes place in fairly open and unplanned locations, and there's no rubble, smoke, noise of artillery, jets, distant gunfire, etc. Players also sprint around like crazy which doesn't favor lower-velocity rounds. Not much advantage to the VSS there. Even if they introduced disassembly (which is a good idea) in how many situations would people bother with that? Especially if it required an animation with a realistic time frame. Most players will choose weapons that make better all-around combat rifles. I don't see a particular problem.

 

True, you raise some good points, and I know this game dosent intend for all weapons to maintain Battlefield levels of balance, but I do believe every "high end" gun should at least be considered as an option, even if its seldom the "go to" gun.

As for discussing bullet balance baced on real world ballistics and tissue damage, Its not really that relevant. If you or I get shot by a 9x39 round, or even a 9mm round, probably even a .22, its going to kill you or incapacitate you. I thinks saying that the VSS bullet is OP is a bit silly if your simultaniously making a realism arguement. Mates who are in the aussie commandoes have showed me helmet cam footage of actual gunfights when they were deployed, and even sometimes seeing a mate get shot in the shoulder, or having a round richochet of his barrel and tear his hand up, it fully incapacitates them. Shock sets in, and your worth to the team and to the fight is almost non existant. If not for highly trained teammates pulling him from the fight and stabilising him, theyd be dead. And if not for immediate evac to a fully functional hospital with a team of surgeons and specialists, you would probably just bleed out internally over a few hours, or shattered bone fragments in your leg would turn septic over a week or two anyway. So if we are going for realism, then all bullets should be vastly more lethal, surviving any form of ballistic damage should kill you slowly over time unless you run into a surgeon and working medical equipment, and simply using a saline bag is not going to fix ya.

I do believe the game should "feel" as realistic as possible though. While tweaking some aspects that are more true to life but are unenjoyable, to still keep the illlusion of reality yet promoting a better game mechanic. Its not useful as a primary because by the time youve found one of these, youve most certainly passed up much better options that also work better with other weapon combinations.  In many other games it is classed as a SMG or PDW, so I dont see the hesitation to tweak it so it becomes an option in that category, where it would make more sense and add more to the game.

As for legnth, I understand its not the smallest SMG. But considering I can just toss my MP5 K sporting an acog, full stock and supressor into my backpack within 3 seconds while its closed on my back, and I can do the same to get it out, I dont really see why allowing a gun with maybe a few extra inches at most to fit into the same category. From what I could gather, the mp5 k with a supressor is 31'' in legnth, and thats without the butstock attatched. So as for legnth, the VSS sounds like it could be more portable than the MP5 K. It also performs on par with all the SMGs in the game, although the damage is nice, it lacks a decent mag size, CQC optics, has terrible bullet velocity and cant carry as much ammo.

All I know is its not being used by anyone I play with, anyone I have killed, anyone ive met or myself in the 100s of hours ive been playing since its release. And I think its for the obvious reason that it is superfluous , and just completely redundant given your other options. Why have it in the game if no one is using it, may aswell tweak it so gets some use. I think it shold just fit into a backpack like an SMG, or if that is such an unfavourable change to a gun that is not seeing any use, then why not allow the weapon to be dissasembles as Funkmaster Rick suggested? 

9 hours ago, Red_Ensign said:

ammo is spawning - I have some I picked up not long ago.

Thats odd, ive looted mishkino probably over 100 times and havent found any. Did you find it at a heli crash? I found a mag with 2 bullets at one, but its hardly worth carrying the gun for that.

[Funkmaster Rick 373]

With respect, he made an argument that the VSS round outperforms other rounds for its in-flight energy expectations. The fact that all rounds in DayZ currently don't do damage commensurate with their real-life up-shit-fucking ability does not invalidate his argument. You're citing systems that are incomplete, only partially implemented, and due to change in the future.

You're essentially making an argument to the effect of 'since this game isn't entirely realistic yet, we should stop talking about realism.' You start by saying that every high-end gun should at least be considered as an option, but later ask why it's even in the game if nobody uses it. You're confused, man.

[Salty seadog 125]

3 hours ago, Funkmaster Rick said:

With respect, he made an argument that the VSS round outperforms other rounds for its in-flight energy expectations. The fact that all rounds in DayZ currently don't do damage commensurate with their real-life up-shit-fucking ability does not invalidate his argument. You're citing systems that are incomplete, only partially implemented, and due to change in the future.

You're essentially making an argument to the effect of 'since this game isn't entirely realistic yet, we should stop talking about realism.' You start by saying that every high-end gun should at least be considered as an option, but later ask why it's even in the game if nobody uses it. You're confused, man.

He did mention that the in-game round outperforms its real life counterpart, and that if the game were to maintain its realism, it should look at nerfing the round to act more in line with reality. 

Im just stating that we should aim for reality, but allow tweaks to mechanics and some slight weapon balance in favour of gameplay. Maybe we should look at classing it as a rare SMG that can fit in a backpack, im not suggesting we quadruple its velocity or something completely immersion breaking.

Im definitely not saying that "since the game isnt entirely realistic, we should stop talking about realism" at all, Im simply saying that we should not entirely base every singe aspect of the game on realism, and make no room for tweaking undesirable realistic mechanics in favour of gameplay.

I did say "every high end gun should be considered as an option", and I did ask "why its in the game if literally nobody is using it". Because I believe that it is currently the only high end weapon that is not being used, and therefore does not allign with my view that "all high end guns should be considered as an option" hence why I am asking we allow it to be stored in a backpack, where I feel that doing so would be enough of a change so as to see it being used.

I do understand that we are playing an alpha, and that much will change. Im citing systems that are currently in because thats the only feedback that we can give! Talking about balance and game mechanics now, is the best way to shape the future of the game as opposed to not talking about anything at all, and only giving feedback when the game is complete.

[Whyherro123 2283]

1 hour ago, Salty seadog said:

 

Im definitely not saying that "since the game isnt entirely realistic, we should stop talking about realism" at all, Im simply saying that we should not entirely base every singe aspect of the game on realism, and make no room for tweaking undesirable realistic mechanics in favour of gameplay.

 

Uh, no, I am going to stop you there.

Gameplay should be based around realism/authenticity, full stop. Rounds and weapons should behave as they do in real life. 

The VSS isn't a "high end weapon", it is an extremely niche weapon, both in-game and in real life.  Stop trying to make it something it is not. 

Should it be capable of being broken down? Can it do so in real life? If so, then yes. Problem solved.

Not everything found in military spawns or at helicopter crashes are "high end". I've found boots at a heli crash, does that make them "high end"?

Edited August 2, 2016 by Whyherro123

[-Gews- 7443]

8 hours ago, Salty seadog said:

As for discussing bullet balance baced on real world ballistics and tissue damage, Its not really that relevant. If you or I get shot by a 9x39 round, or even a 9mm round, probably even a .22, its going to kill you or incapacitate you. I thinks saying that the VSS bullet is OP is a bit silly if your simultaniously making a realism arguement. Mates who are in the aussie commandoes have showed me helmet cam footage of actual gunfights when they were deployed, and even sometimes seeing a mate get shot in the shoulder, or having a round richochet of his barrel and tear his hand up, it fully incapacitates them. Shock sets in, and your worth to the team and to the fight is almost non existant. If not for highly trained teammates pulling him from the fight and stabilising him, theyd be dead. And if not for immediate evac to a fully functional hospital with a team of surgeons and specialists, you would probably just bleed out internally over a few hours, or shattered bone fragments in your leg would turn septic over a week or two anyway. So if we are going for realism, then all bullets should be vastly more lethal, surviving any form of ballistic damage should kill you slowly over time unless you run into a surgeon and working medical equipment, and simply using a saline bag is not going to fix ya.

It is relevant, because weapons are each given certain damage values and those values should be based on the real-life performance, not pulled out of thin air. The 9x39 SP-6 is overpowered relative to other cartridges.

I agree with your point in a way. I think. I don't like how damage differences are so obvious. Weapons are often picked on their damage instead of other factors.There should be less disparity in the guns, players should not be so easily able to differentiate the damages based on their gameplay experiences. Shooting at someone with 7.62 NATO should not automatically result in dramatically different results than with 7.62x39. Consider that hunters, soldiers, etc, argue for decades about which caliber is "the best", and they all have their own anecdotes and often end up coming to completely different conclusions! 

In real life the main factor is shot placement, but in DayZ we don't have any shot placement to speak of. Your character has simply a "torso" and shots there will deal a certain damage, gear and health status being equal there's no possibility for minor wounds with a .308 in one case, or fatal shot with a single .22 in the next. It's already better than DayZ mod in this respect, but can still be improved.

 

8 hours ago, Salty seadog said:

As for legnth, I understand its not the smallest SMG. But considering I can just toss my MP5 K sporting an acog, full stock and supressor into my backpack within 3 seconds while its closed on my back, and I can do the same to get it out, I dont really see why allowing a gun with maybe a few extra inches at most to fit into the same category. From what I could gather, the mp5 k with a supressor is 31'' in legnth, and thats without the butstock attatched. So as for legnth, the VSS sounds like it could be more portable than the MP5 K. It also performs on par with all the SMGs in the game, although the damage is nice, it lacks a decent mag size, CQC optics, has terrible bullet velocity and cant carry as much ammo.

The base MP5K is small, the base Vintorez is large. But no, it doesn't make much sense. However, neither does the fact stocks don't fold yet the weapon still takes up same space. It's an unfinished system. If they allowed the VSS to fit in backpack as is, they need to allow AKM, AUG, etc as well. Which won't happen for gameplay reasons, which the devs value. The bullet velocity is on par the various SMGs, by the way:

MP5K................350 m/s
VSS...................300 m/s
RAK, Skorpion...300 m/s
UMP-45.............260 m/s

8 hours ago, Salty seadog said:

All I know is its not being used by anyone I play with, anyone I have killed, anyone ive met or myself in the 100s of hours ive been playing since its release. And I think its for the obvious reason that it is superfluous , and just completely redundant given your other options. Why have it in the game if no one is using it, may aswell tweak it so gets some use. I think it shold just fit into a backpack like an SMG, or if that is such an unfavourable change to a gun that is not seeing any use, then why not allow the weapon to be dissasembles as Funkmaster Rick suggested? 

I said it should be able to be disassembled and stored in a backpack. It's fast and easy to do so! However, it's not the only weapon with that capability, and they shouldn't discriminate. Also, I think a large part of the reason you see no one using it is the rarity. It's not the easiest weapon to find. This combined with its narrow PoU, not a common sight.

[Red_Ensign 990]

15 hours ago, Salty seadog said:

Thats odd, ive looted mishkino probably over 100 times and havent found any. Did you find it at a heli crash? I found a mag with 2 bullets at one, but its hardly worth carrying the gun for that.

can't remember 100%, but I'm pretty sure I found them at the sobor tents.

I sent you a forum pm with where you can pick up the few I found.  we've traded before in-game.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Red_Ensign

[Salty seadog 125]

4 hours ago, Red_Ensign said:

can't remember 100%, but I'm pretty sure I found them at the sobor tents.

I sent you a forum pm with where you can pick up the few I found.  we've traded before in-game.

Thanks heaps for the offer Red_Ensign, I think we traded for something similar last time! But I might pass on the offer, as Im not really looking to use the VSS anymore. Cheers anyway.

[Salty seadog 125]

13 hours ago, Whyherro123 said:

Uh, no, I am going to stop you there.

Gameplay should be based around realism/authenticity, full stop. Rounds and weapons should behave as they do in real life. 

The VSS isn't a "high end weapon", it is an extremely niche weapon, both in-game and in real life.  Stop trying to make it something it is not. 

Should it be capable of being broken down? Can it do so in real life? If so, then yes. Problem solved.

Not everything found in military spawns or at helicopter crashes are "high end". I've found boots at a heli crash, does that make them "high end"?

 

Ok ease up! You're assuming that im dealing in absolute's, and I dont like that, its not what im saying here. Also no... Boots are not a high end gun.... they are boots. Cmon... Weather im right or wrong here, I would make the assumption that the "M4, AK101, AUG, SVD, UMP, VSS" are all high end weapons, and that the Scout' SAW and probably a few others will also join the ranks of end game weaponry. Even if it isnt a high end weapon, my point still stands that it is not seeing use.

Look, I believe the game should be as realistic as possible too. Yet if we can't discuss any minor tweaks in any single category because you feel its not hyper realistic, I would be inclined to remind you that this is still a video game. Why would we even have a forum if the answer to every possible solution is "no, because realism". There is also a debate that could be had on what you percieve as realistic, as opposed to what someone else views as realism. Every single possible aspect of this game is still, and will remain, grossely unrealistic in comparison to real life, bullet physics probably being the closest thing to real life. I wouldnt dare suggest changing bullet physics and velocities, unless it was very minor damage tweaks in favour of gameplay.There are probably 1000"s of unrealistic things that happen in every hour of play, so suggesting a gun the same size( maybe smaller) as a supressed MP5 K cant fit into the same backpack, seems like an overly firm stance to have.

Im not suggesting we start messing with bullet velocities at all, or anything else that would be deemed immersion breaking, just trying to come up with a way to make all guns in this game an option, at least in some area of the geardness scale! Because itll suck if the only possible option is one or two high end or common weapons, while the other ~20 are just not used. If weapons can be collapsed or broken down in real life, then I also agree it should be an option in game.

I know not everything found at a heli crash is deemed high end gear, but I am just saying that it is one of the rarest guns in the entire game at the moment, and only found at high risk locations and heli sites, so you could probably assume that it is considered somewhat high end.

Anyway, to help rectify this, there are a number of options you could take that dont seem to be horrificly unrealistic, or unrealistic at all:  Have the weapon break down or collapse, Allow it to fit into a backpack and take up the same space as a SMG or(possiby allign it vertically and have it take up just a few extra spaces over an SMG), Make it a fairly common gun with common ammo so it might be considered before you drop it for an M4, introduce the 20 round mag for it maybe...

[Salty seadog 125]

13 hours ago, -Gews- said:

It is relevant, because weapons are each given certain damage values and those values should be based on the real-life performance, not pulled out of thin air. The 9x39 SP-6 is overpowered relative to other cartridges.

I agree with your point in a way. I think. I don't like how damage differences are so obvious. Weapons are often picked on their damage instead of other factors.There should be less disparity in the guns, players should not be so easily able to differentiate the damages based on their gameplay experiences. Shooting at someone with 7.62 NATO should not automatically result in dramatically different results than with 7.62x39. Consider that hunters, soldiers, etc, argue for decades about which caliber is "the best", and they all have their own anecdotes and often end up coming to completely different conclusions! 

In real life the main factor is shot placement, but in DayZ we don't have any shot placement to speak of. Your character has simply a "torso" and shots there will deal a certain damage, gear and health status being equal there's no possibility for minor wounds with a .308 in one case, or fatal shot with a single .22 in the next. It's already better than DayZ mod in this respect, but can still be improved.

 

The base MP5K is small, the base Vintorez is large. But no, it doesn't make much sense. However, neither does the fact stocks don't fold yet the weapon still takes up same space. It's an unfinished system. If they allowed the VSS to fit in backpack as is, they need to allow AKM, AUG, etc as well. Which won't happen for gameplay reasons, which the devs value. The bullet velocity is on par the various SMGs, by the way:

MP5K................350 m/s
VSS...................300 m/s
RAK, Skorpion...300 m/s
UMP-45.............260 m/s

I said it should be able to be disassembled and stored in a backpack. It's fast and easy to do so! However, it's not the only weapon with that capability, and they shouldn't discriminate. Also, I think a large part of the reason you see no one using it is the rarity. It's not the easiest weapon to find. This combined with its narrow PoU, not a common sight.

I hear you, and I agree with you that bullet damages should fall in line with real world values, and especially flight trajectories. I was just trying to say that bullets are lethal anyway, and that making a realism arguement with no wiggle room is tough considering there is such disparity between rounds in the game, and that in real life, you could easily survive a 6X 9mm to the gut, or get shot by a 5.56 that hits bone in the upper shoulder and wraps around the bone into you chest and kills you. I was just trying to have a sneaky dig at the realism arguement! 

I agree it would be brilliant if they could work on shot placement, so smaller rounds could be more lethal if it connects with vital organs, also expand the medical system and possibly some amimations for certain non life threatning shots, hand, foot etc.. (although I think I saw a limping animation coming up)

Some interesting points on velocities there, gotta say I didnt expect the ump to be slower than the VSS. But still, it kina shows how you could easily classify this gun as a SMG, as many other games do.

As for weapon legnths preventing certain guns from fitting into a backpack, it would probably be one of the only areas I would argue that we could make a small exception on the realism front to allow the VSS fit, even if it is bigger than an M4. As the whole concept of how the backpack works, and the fact some guns with attatchments are bigger than most stock guns in the game, I dont see it being a huge problem in the grand scheme of things. I just find it hard getting hung up on this one fact of it not fitting, or now having to allow most assuault rifles into your backpack because of the size, when the whole system is already heavily unrealistic, and there are already many weapons with attatchments that already break this logic. It acts like a SMG, with its own positives and negatives in comparison to the UMP, MP5 etc..So I just reason that it would be beneficial to the longevity of game if it got some use.

Although it would be great to see all guns that have collapsable stocks have the ability to fit into a backpack.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Salty seadog

[Funkmaster Rick 373]

3 hours ago, Salty seadog said:

Boots are not a high end gun.... they are boots.

Haha, stopped reading. Not what Gews said at all.

[Whyherro123 2283]

33 minutes ago, Funkmaster Rick said:

Haha, stopped reading. Not what Gews said at all.

Except, I am not Gews, though I appreciate the association with such a lauded figure

[sneakydude 480]

Maybe all of you are looking at this all wrong, all weapons arent fitting into the backpack, except pistols. Maybe the backpack is a holder for.

Can anyone confirm or deny it is possible?