DayZ Standalone Base Building is almost here! How do you plan to use it?

[emuthreat 2837]

I think Funkdoc makes a good point with regards to balancing base durability, with vulnerability.  I'm leaning towards a doctrine of "only build as much as you can personally oversee."  For instance, a single, lone-wolf player could conceivable secure a small number of vehicles, and use those to transport over time, a large enough amount of building materials to construct a base suitable for a clan of twenty.  Should that player be able to assure the security of such a base on his own, facilitated solely through heavy-handed durability timers?  Would that player not better suit xis needs by building a relatively small, and more hidden base, rather than a larger and *artificially more durable* base?

Even five minutes of pounding on a wall with a sledgehammer seems like enough exposure and risk to reward the invading player with access.  After all, they could have set-up concertainers outside the walls to give them a higher resistance to entry than the walls provided; or perhaps they have placed their concertainers hidden just behind the weaker walls--providing a surprise technical limitation to the invader who saw walls, and only thought to bring tools appropriate to destroy wooden/tin walls.  If i show up with two friends, and we each have two grenades to put up against a single fence, and single row of concertainers, I would full expect that we should gain entry to the base; if we don't, I cry foul.

Better still, if a lone player builds a base larger than they are personally capable of monitoring to ensure security, would that not be an opportunity to go out into the server seeking friendly players with whom to share this large base?  I mean, that's what I been doing with my bases.  When I get to the point where I definitely know that I have too much shit, I go looking for other players to wow with my massive stockpiles.
 All but one of the players that I have taken to my bases have been honest, and were even a bit hesitant to start equipping themselves from my redundant sotckpiles for a few days.  I have to ask people to do chores like cutting firewood, and helping me cook, or hunting down spare tires, before most people feel comfortable taking anything that I've offered them from my base.  And the one who lied to me and stole, was betrayed by his accomplice who later met me and had a change of heart about stealing from such a helpful player. The rat was passive-aggressively insulted for a couple days voice comms (while he didn't know that I knew it was him), eventually hunted down and fraudulently "friendly" fired upon at Stary tents, and then finally killed a second time and humiliated when we came to bring him back his gear from the "friendly fire incident"--all very good emergent gameplay too, I might add.

Edited May 23, 2016 by emuthreat

[emuthreat 2837]

12 minutes ago, Funkdoc said:

a spawn slide to a saver position anywhere around 100m of the base is a must, for everyone except the base owner(?)

How would we recognize base ownership, and may it be shared?  If it can be shared, how easily can the "share conditions" be spoofed?

[emuthreat 2837]

6 minutes ago, Luc Tonnerre said:

 

Just imagine you make it into the center of a base and step over a well placed trip-wire and suddenly all containers around you will open up and a hoard of zombies on leashes are coming for you. As soon as you are dead the leashes get retracted, dragging the zeds safely back into their containers.

 

+1 for winches.  +1,000,000 for transportable shipping containers.

[Funkdoc 46]

12 minutes ago, emuthreat said:

How would we recognize base ownership, and may it be shared?  If it can be shared, how easily can the "share conditions" be spoofed?

i think there should only be one owner, that one who built up the "central base element". of course, this additional data has to be stored in the server hive database. this guy is able to spawn in his base in case of base raid and call his mates for support while he can open up the door fast from inside for them. but there should also be keys for the others, which also can be found, stolen, body-stripped, forwarded from/to them.

 

Edited May 23, 2016 by Funkdoc

[Funkdoc 46]

another problem is the growing camp amount on a server. this can very early affect server performance if for ex.(i only say any number) over 150 bases are built up on that server.

so it needs to be time limited. a abandoned base (timer is up on last action) is exposed to a naturally decay. if the limit is reached, no camp building is possible meanwhile on that server.

[Whyherro123 2283]

I have an alternate idea.

There is no base ownership. None. Zilch. Nada.

That way, there is none of this nonsense about "plot poles", "zones of ownership", "who can build what, where". 

Anyone can, theoretically, build "anything" anywhere they want. If you can get the materials to the spot, you can build there. Some invading player builds something up against the walls of someone else's base? Then that player has to do something about it, not rely on the magical "100 meters of protection" that somehow prevents other people from building near your stuff. Go out, knock it down, burn the rubble and piss on the ashes.

Of course, I also want what is actually buildable to be limited to what someone, or a group of people could feasibly move and build with no power tools.

The standard intermodal shipping container is 40 feet long and weighs about 4 tons (8,380lbs, according to wikipedia). You aren't going to be moving that with a truck-mounted winch. You could move it with a crane, but where are you going to find one in South Zagoria? Feasibly, the dockyards, but all the winches we are are literally bolted to the quays, and being fuckmassive and immobile besides.

As much as I like the idea of using intermodal containers as shelters/basebuilding materials, they just aren't feasible.

So, what does that effectively limit us to? Well, in game, you can see stacks up processed lumber, stacks of logs, pallets of bricks, and stacks of dry cement bags and concrete slabs. All of those are, technically (although it would be a time-consuming pain in the ass) movable using muscle power and the bed of a V3S. You can cut a tree down by hand and chop it into logs, or strip branches and vegetation to build wilderness shelters with.

Therefore:

1: log cabins with cement foundations would be the "highest tier" thing you could build. No 100 foot high metal towers of ominousness, etc An 8in thick log would stop most bullets, and, contrary to popular opinon, is basically inflammable without a lot of high, sustained temperatures.

They wouldn't even be all that difficult to build.

2) Defense would consist of 1- isolation, 2-regular patrolling, and 3- fortification

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palisade

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthworks_(archaeology)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrasure

All of the three above are buildable, by hand, with simple tools. No need for welding equipment, the transportation of hard-to-get materials, etc, and will be basically just as effective as any "modern" defense you could think of. 

3) There would be no "instant spawn in base" mechanic to prevent break-ins. No, you want to prevent break ins, you check regularly.  Get a group of friends together, and plan out a schedule to be on watch. If you can't do that, either 1- you don't need that stuff that badly, or 2- build a more concealed base.

"The fear of force, rather than force itself".

[emuthreat 2837]

1 hour ago, Whyherro123 said:

I have an alternate idea.

There is no base ownership. None. Zilch. Nada.

That way, there is none of this nonsense about "plot poles", "zones of ownership", "who can build what, where". 

Anyone can, theoretically, build "anything" anywhere they want. If you can get the materials to the spot, you can build there. Some invading player builds something up against the walls of someone else's base? Then that player has to do something about it, not rely on the magical "100 meters of protection" that somehow prevents other people from building near your stuff. Go out, knock it down, burn the rubble and piss on the ashes.

Of course, I also want what is actually buildable to be limited to what someone, or a group of people could feasibly move and build with no power tools.

The standard intermodal shipping container is 40 feet long and weighs about 4 tons (8,380lbs, according to wikipedia). You aren't going to be moving that with a truck-mounted winch. You could move it with a crane, but where are you going to find one in South Zagoria? Feasibly, the dockyards, but all the winches we are are literally bolted to the quays, and being fuckmassive and immobile besides.

As much as I like the idea of using intermodal containers as shelters/basebuilding materials, they just aren't feasible.

So, what does that effectively limit us to? Well, in game, you can see stacks up processed lumber, stacks of logs, pallets of bricks, and stacks of dry cement bags and concrete slabs. All of those are, technically (although it would be a time-consuming pain in the ass) movable using muscle power and the bed of a V3S. You can cut a tree down by hand and chop it into logs, or strip branches and vegetation to build wilderness shelters with.

 

 

I take issue with your cherry-picking of the 40-foot container, rather than the vastly more common (80% of all conatiners) 20-foot container. But even then, your math just does not correlate with reality.  Let's be honest, the containers in game look like the 20-foot variety.

Do you know what a tow truck is and how it works?  They tilt the bed, and align it with the ground near the object to be loaded, and then a winch is used to drag (or in ideal circumstances, roll) the object onto the bed, which is then raised back to its level position for travel.
There would be a lot of traffic congestion if a flatbed equipped with a winch was unable to load a disabled vehicle, commonly weighing more than 3 tons.  So, assuming that we could eventually fix a V3S chassis with a tilt-bed and winch, this would absolutely be possible and feasible.

The container in this video was loaded by forklift; which, alongside the dozers and excavators scattered around the map, I'd like to one day see as functional elements of the map.

Here's another video of a purpose-built truck for delivering and picking up full dumpsters of similar mass to a container.

If you wanna do survival the amish way, that's just fine.  But don't piss on my leg and tell me that it is raining.  I could move a 20 foot container with a tow chain, an improvised sled/trailer, and a 1/4 ton pickup.  It wouldn't be pretty, or particularly quiet, but it would get to a new destination just as surely as if a helicopter airlifted it there.

 

Edited May 23, 2016 by emuthreat

[DR. IRISHMIKE 80]

2 hours ago, Funkdoc said:

just a few thoughts on basebuilding

it will be necessary to build up bases, but how to defend it from intruders over time, not being online everytime?

i think there is only one solution for this problem. parts of walls and fences should have high value timers of destruction steps. maybe one step takes one hour out of 20 steps to destroy, if the wall is "prestine".

than a clan or a group or even a lonley survivor is able to get rid of the ongoing base raid.

partially destroyed walls and fences can be rebuilt as it takes plenty of time to build up such base defence parts, finding the needed crafting items included.

Remember too that there is going to be electrified fences, barbed wire, and we already have bear traps and trap grenades. There will be some forms of protection even when we are offline. But again, don't love your loot in the base, it will get taken. You may even have to fight just to get your base back!

[Funkdoc 46]

 

2 hours ago, Whyherro123 said:

I have an alternate idea.

There is no base ownership. None. Zilch. Nada.

 

but then u have the problem as i said that the one who found your camp could easily spawn inside ur base by only switching to another server, changing his position a bit and coming back right next to your "ship container", raiding and logging out. he could steal your best item within seconds...this has to be blocked! otherwise basebuilding makes no sense

i think the suggestion with the ownership and the "base spawn protection radius" is not as worse as u think.

 

@irishmike

Quote

don't love your loot in the base, it will get taken.

yeah u are right, someone (or group) wont be able to protect a base 24/7. if a guy wants to intrude, he will, no matter the weather... its a question of time.. once ur base is sightet, he will come back, maybe with friend support. at the end, the good old barrel glitched in the tree is the better "high loot container"

Edited May 24, 2016 by Funkdoc

[Whyherro123 2283]

1 hour ago, emuthreat said:

I take issue with your cherry-picking of the 40-foot container, rather than the vastly more common (80% of all conatiners) 20-foot container. But even then, your math just does not correlate with reality.  Let's be honest, the containers in game look like the 20-foot variety.

Do you know what a tow truck is and how it works?  They tilt the bed, and align it with the ground near the object to be loaded, and then a winch is used to drag (or in ideal circumstances, roll) the object onto the bed, which is then raised back to its level position for travel.
There would be a lot of traffic congestion if a flatbed equipped with a winch was unable to load a disabled vehicle, commonly weighing more than 3 tons.  So, assuming that we could eventually fix a V3S chassis with a tilt-bed and winch, this would absolutely be possible and feasible.

 

Hidden Content

Wikipedia said 40 foot was the standard model for stacking storage, not I. Unless I missed something (and it is entirely possible), most of the concertainers in-game are stacked, and (granted, I never paid a lot of attention to them) from what I noticed, they weren't two containers linked together

If you can prove me incorrect, then I cede the point.

Regardless of whether a tow truck can lift them, I just don't think we should be relying on vehicles to carry our basebuilding materials for us, and therefore, anything that can't be transported by hand/wagon/trailer shouldn't really be a part of basebuilding, in my opinion. Granted, I don't think we should rely on vehicles for anything, but that is beyond the point.

The second you rely on something to get something integral to the game done, it turns me off. If that makes sense. Which is partially why I am so against there being "loot-extravaganza's" in the game, or wilderness crafting/survival being ignored in favor of more guns n' such. Every "playstyle" should be viable, and if I have to scrum high and low for tow-truck spawns in order to build a base, then something went wrong.

All of the things I linked to can be built by hand, using an axe and a shovel. No vehicles or power-tools required.

[emuthreat 2837]

2 minutes ago, Funkdoc said:

 

if a guy wants to intrude, he will, no matter the weather... its a question of time.. once ur base is sightet, he will come back, maybe with friend support. at the end, the good old barrel glitched in the tree is the better "high loot container"

This is why a mix of both fortified bases, and concealed stashes is the best approach.  Nothing else in the game could live up the the feeling of triumph you would get from getting killed alone in your big base, then running back to near your base in a half hour, eating-up from some semi-coastal stashes, and grabbing an SVD that you strategically hid on a hillside overlooking your base.  One should always prepare both escape stashes to help survive a retreat from their bases, and assault stashes to mount a retaking attempt, around their bases to prepare for an incursion.  They will happen.  Even on low-pops, I find camps.

[Whyherro123 2283]

5 minutes ago, Funkdoc said:

 

but then u have the problem as i said that the one who found your camp could easily spawn inside ur base by only switching to another server, changing his position a bit and coming back right next to your "ship container", raiding and logging out. he could steal your best item within seconds...this has to be blocked! otherwise basebuilding makes no sense

i think the suggestion with the ownership and the "base spawn protection radius" is not as worse as u think.

 

@irishmike

yeah u are right, someone (or group) wont be able to protect a base 24/7. if a guy wants to intrude, he will, no matter the weather... its a question of time.. once ur base is sightet, he will come back, maybe with friend support. at the end, the good old barrel glitched in the tree is the better "high loot container"

Which is why building a base on a public hive is a lesson in absurdity. "Server-hopping" is a cancer related to public hives, and will never go away so long as easy server-switching is available. I, for one, would rather there be no basebuilding allowed on private hives, than suffer through the absurdity of a "magical anti-building barrier".

Of course, this is also coming from the person who believes that 99% of all "base defenses" should be easily defeated through the use of a ladder. Wall? Throw a ladder up against it and hop over. Locked gate? Ditto. Barbed/electrified wire? A wooden ladder laughs at that..

A ladder, a sledge and some bolt-cutters should be all you need to break into any base. The "fortifications" give you ability to fight back, not "make it next to impossible to break in".

[Funkdoc 46]

i think intruders wont attack a active defended base... they will come in when nobody is there defending it. this happens maybe when ur sleeping iRL

[emuthreat 2837]

17 minutes ago, Whyherro123 said:

Wikipedia said 40 foot was the standard model for stacking storage, not I. Unless I missed something (and it is entirely possible), most of the concertainers in-game are stacked, and (granted, I never paid a lot of attention to them) from what I noticed, they weren't two containers linked together

If you can prove me incorrect, then I cede the point.  It seems we'll have to split the point.  Wikipedia said 80% were either 20 or 40.  I blame the line-break.

Regardless of whether a tow truck can lift them, I just don't think we should be relying on vehicles to carry our basebuilding materials for us, and therefore, anything that can't be transported by hand/wagon/trailer shouldn't really be a part of basebuilding, in my opinion. Granted, I don't think we should rely on vehicles for anything, but that is beyond the point.

The second you rely on something to get something integral to the game done, it turns me off. If that makes sense. Which is partially why I am so against there being "loot-extravaganza's" in the game, or wilderness crafting/survival being ignored in favor of more guns n' such. Every "playstyle" should be viable, and if I have to scrum high and low for tow-truck spawns in order to build a base, then something went wrong.  You won't need a tow truck to build a log cabin, only to move another vehicle, or a shipping container; possibly a utility trailer loaded with generators, expandable earth-filled barricades, light fixtures and spools of wire, and a barrel full of nails.

All of the things I linked to can be built by hand, using an axe and a shovel. No vehicles or power-tools required.  I definitely would like to see trees cut down first into logs; then split logs which can be quartered for rails or firewood, or taken to a sawmill to make planks.  There's no reason we can't have both.

Have you been talking to Ned Ludd?  I hear it's a great way to recoil at the mention of using technology to achieve superior results.

Edited May 24, 2016 by emuthreat

[Whyherro123 2283]

Just now, Funkdoc said:

i think intruders wont attack a active defended base... they will come in when nobody is there defending it. this happens maybe when ur sleeping iRL

........ which is why, asides from bases taking a realistic (that is, several "hours") amount of time to build, lone wolves should have a hard time building a large, obvious base?

Humanity has existed in tribes and clans throughout its entire existence for a reason. Surviving as a lone wolf should be very difficult, and building a base more complicated than a tent or a shelter in the woods should, realistically, be pretty damn difficult. 

If you have a large base, you either 1) schedule clan mates to patrol/defend the base over night, like people would do in real life, or, 2) maybe build a less ostentatious base, or build it in a more remote location?

I dunno, seems like common sense to me.

[Funkdoc 46]

u have people that would only defend the base for 24/7. i dont believe that this is interesting to anyone over a longer period of time. the people want to play, not guarding a camp when nobody is coming for days... boring

Edited May 24, 2016 by Funkdoc

[Whyherro123 2283]

22 minutes ago, emuthreat said:

Have you been to Ludds?  I hear it's a great place to recoil at the mention of using technology to achieve superior results.

I'm not averse to technology per se, I just am not a fan of relying on hard-to-maintain "modern tech" in the face of a society-ending apocalypse. It is "unsustainable" and will, most likely, end in ruin when the required materials inevitably run out. "Down-techning", that is, using lower "levels" of technology that are simpler to repair and replace, is infinitely more realistic and believable

Let us examine how sustainable some of the things suggested in this thread are:

-generators: depend on fuel, which is refined from petroleum, and close-tolerance spare parts, which is dependent on the existence of skilled machiners.

-lights: dependent on electricity, which is dependent on the above generator, as well as glass-making, wire-making, and the aforementioned spare parts.

- electrical wire: ditto

-barbed wire: by far the easiest of the bunch to maintain.

-vehicles: reliant on fuel, oil, hydraulic fluids,spare parts, electrical equipment, as well as skilled labor.

Versus:

a fireplace: requires, well, wood., and provides both heat, a cooking surface and light

a lantern: requires fuel, which can be anything from alcohol to animal fat

a palisade of logs supported by thornbushes: a shovel, and axe and some gloves

a log cabin: requires an axe

So on and so forth.

I also think it makes for a better game, as "magical" logistics is almost infinitely boring to me.

Imagine how exciting the game would be in these two scenarios:

1) you and your clan take your truck down to the gas station, which never runs out of gas (due to server restart/reset)

2) your truck won't start, so you go out to look for some oil. After finding some (draining it from an abandoned car), you realize you are low on gas, so you stop by the gas station. The gas in the tank is expired, and has gone "bad" (gasoline is a highly refined product, and can last "only" up to two or so years with stabilizer added). You don't have enough in the tank to make it to the next town, so you send a clanmate with a jerrycan. He comes back chased by zombies

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ApocalypticLogistics

etc

 

Edited May 24, 2016 by Whyherro123

[Whyherro123 2283]

12 minutes ago, Funkdoc said:

u have people that would only defend the base for 24/7. i dont believe that this is interesting to anyone over a longer period of time. the people want to play, not guarding a camp when nobody is coming for days... boring

If your clanmates don't give enough of a shit about your base, nor the stuff in it, then basebuilding probably isn't for them.

Not my fault your clanmates are children with the attention-spans of goldfish.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, in my opinon. If you want to build a large obvious base, then you have to defend it 24/7. If you don't want to do that, then don't build a large obvious base. Make smaller stashes.

[DR. IRISHMIKE 80]

19 minutes ago, Funkdoc said:

u have people that would only defend the base for 24/7. i dont believe that this is interesting to anyone over a longer period of time. the people want to play, not guarding a camp when nobody is coming for days... boring

We actually have a few players that love the idea of managing the base and defending it. They also like to farm, etc and while they don't seek PVP they like it to come to them. For those sorts, they are built in base hounds. To each his own I guess. I'm still thinking that Bases will be best on Private servers with one connection to the hive. Especially when mods come in to being.

[Judged_Guitly 80]

IMO I don't think we should get too far into the weeds with magically erecting giant walls of steel or big cement igloos because this is supposed to be a degraded society and the technology we’re utilizing not only has a limited capacity but also requires certain training. How many of you could go to a shipping yard right now and retrieve the materials it would take to build a base 20 miles away with the knowledge you currently have? I also understand for gamesake we have to suspend disbelief and pretend were all highly trained engineer/warriors so there must be a fine line for an embellished reality. Okay, give them the ability to make a castle but give me the tools to breach it. Give me claymore mines to defend my bunker but implement the flame thrower that can barbecue my ass.  Tip for tap but we should still keep one toe firmly grounded in reality.

I think base building is a slippery slope and has the potential to be a nightmare.  If you’ve ever played ARK and you walk around the island there are all these massive structures in strategic locations while the rest of the map is littered with half built cabins and abandon walls. It completely ruins the ambiance of the game.  I don’t know what the best solutions are but from a lone wolf survivor type (probably the minority of the DayZ community) I hope they offer more options to the admins so we can choose the server which best supports our play style. I don’t like the idea of following the deathmatch community just because that’s where the majority money comes from. The squeaky wheel always gets the grease. 

[CornProducts 315]

Bases are a great way for players to gather all of their loot and vehicles in one conspicuous spot. As an avid "borrower" of items, I approve.

[igor-vk 909]

6 hours ago, Whyherro123 said:

Regardless of whether a tow truck can lift them, I just don't think we should be relying on vehicles to carry our basebuilding materials for us, and therefore, anything that can't be transported by hand/wagon/trailer shouldn't really be a part of basebuilding, in my opinion. Granted, I don't think we should rely on vehicles for anything, but that is beyond the point.

The second you rely on something to get something integral to the game done, it turns me off. If that makes sense. Which is partially why I am so against there being "loot-extravaganza's" in the game, or wilderness crafting/survival being ignored in favor of more guns n' such. Every "playstyle" should be viable, and if I have to scrum high and low for tow-truck spawns in order to build a base, then something went wrong.

I think you are wrong. If you want to transport 40 foot container you can use V3S chasis truck. You will need portable electric generator to power big crane to lift it. All that machinery makes a lot of noise and attracts infected and players. So it will be team effort and it will take a lot of planing and coordination. You will need a clan. If you dont have clan, you can collect logs, boards, pallets, scrap metal or things like that and build small shelter for 2 or 3 players max (if you do have a clan, then you need bigger base). 

[emuthreat 2837]

^^^This guy gets it.  That whole emergent player behavior facilitated by in-depth game mechanics requiring specific and complex actions to be taken in order to secure a strategic advantage, thing...

Is DayZ SA actually a 1st/3pp RTS game?  DEEP.....

[igor-vk 909]

4 minutes ago, emuthreat said:

Is DayZ SA actually a 1st/3pp RTS game?  DEEP.....

If devs make it right, it should be. Dayz gives us posibility to do what you want in game and where you want. You can have PvP wars in Electro but in same time someone on other part of map is fishing and making leather mocasines. Third guy is neck deep in zombies in Pavlovo and forth guy is just cruising in his Volga sedan.

 

[emuthreat 2837]

My playstyle has always been persistence-based; and since the addition of tents, barrels, and now vehicles, I would describe my in-game goals as mostly logistical.  If you do it right, a random death in a non-critical area, is simply a free excuse to grid a different quadrant of the map for fresh vehicle spawns.