Realistic Action Times Please

[Jex 1104]

Can we start thinking about changing the time it takes to do things so "the right tool for the job" is worth something?

 

I can open a can of food with a can opener in exactly the same time it takes me to do it with an axe. I've opened cans with knives before and it takes ages compared to a can opener. I'm not even sure how you would open a can with an axe.

 

If I use a badly damaged sewing kit to repair my trousers, it should take a lot longer to do than a pristine set.

 

Tasks should be taking a lot longer when using the wrong tools and then get faster with better tools....

 

Open a can of....

Screwdriver.....30 second

Knife............20 seconds

Can opener.....5 seconds

Edited February 12, 2015 by Jexter

[IgnobleBasterd 161]

Can we start thinking about changing the time it takes to do things so "the right tool for the job" is worth something?

 

I can open a can of food with a can opener in exactly the same time it takes me to do it with an axe. I've opened cans with knives before and it takes ages compared to a can opener. I'm not even sure how you would open a can with an axe.

 

Actually you can do it quite quickly if you practice. At work I used to open cans with a knife for a long time because asshole boss would't buy a can opener for the employees. After a while I got quite good at it and it can't have taken more than perhaps 10 seconds longer than with a standard opener.

[Jex 1104]

Actually you can do it quite quickly if you practice. At work I used to open cans with a knife for a long time because asshole boss wouldn't buy a can opener for the employees. After a while I got quite good at it and it can't have taken more than perhaps 10 seconds longer than with a standard opener.

 

LOL ur boss was that much of a cheapskate and why didn't anyone just buy one???? They cost nothing (and less if you loot someone else's house.....what, officer?)

 

You may well get faster in RL but we're talking about a game here.

[TheHermit (DayZ) 22]

Actually you can do it quite quickly if you practice. At work I used to open cans with a knife for a long time because asshole boss would't buy a can opener for the employees. After a while I got quite good at it and it can't have taken more than perhaps 10 seconds longer than with a standard opener.

LOL, my goodness.

 

OP... I love that idea.

If we're going to be able to use screwdrivers, than there should be a cost/risk to make the can opener more of a desirable goal.

 

It also means that some folks will just as well skip using canned food until they find the opener, and that might lead people into less obvious food gathering locations/strategies.

 

edit: of course this also means that you're a little screwed as a fresh spawn on the coast... but that means you gather your cans, go off and hide and open them in the woods before going off.

Edited February 12, 2015 by TheHermit

[Jex 1104]

LOL, my goodness.

 

OP... I love that idea.

If we're going to be able to use screwdrivers, than there should be a cost/risk to make the can opener more of a desirable goal.

 

It also means that some folks will just as well skip using canned food until they find the opener, and that might lead people into less obvious food gathering locations/strategies.

 

edit: of course this also means that you're a little screwed as a fresh spawn on the coast... but that means you gather your cans, go off and hide and open them in the woods before going off.

 

Well not necessarily. Right now the food loss isn't a deterent to opening anything with a screwdriver or whatever. There's so much food it's not an issue. I spawned in yesterday in a small village in the center of the map and almost every house out of 20 had 2 or 3 food items in them. I left them because my backpack was already crammed with food.

 

There is also an argument to say we shouldn't lose any food at all. I never lost any using a knife, sure as hell wouldn't with a screwdriver so why is this in when the obvious problem with the wrong tools is how long it will take you. I don't get how this isn't obvious from the start. Have the devs never opened cans with anything but can openers? Do they realise that it's pretty easy to do - it just takes longer?

 

So we have a mechanic in a game nobody gives a shit about, losing a little food. So it makes it pointless and needs to be removed. If the game is going to get to the point where you need that 15% of beans you spilled to live, nobody is going to be playing this game a week after they implement that. So we can be pretty sure here that we've made a case for scrapping the stupid food loss.

 

That then leave the case wide open for implementing the length of time actions take. I guarantee you this will make everyone want the right tool for the job. If they have to spend 30 seconds opening a can of beans and can find something that takes 5 seconds, they are going to take it and treasure it - fact.

 

Right now the can opener is pointless because I have a stone knife which I think will probably open a can. If it doesn't, I'll grab a kitchen knife. I need a knife anyway to gut animals so right now, I can save a slot by dropping the can opener because they have made it completely useless. All it does is take up an inventory slot.

 

The can opener is used here because it's the most blatant and easiest example to use but this will apply to every single tool across the game.

 

Need to screw something, use a knife and take 40 seconds or a screwdrivers and take 10 seconds. You can think of loads of things this would work in DayZ and it should be implemented because finding the right item for the job you want makes you feel good when you find it and we want good experiences in a game :)

 

Wow rambled on there, sorry lol

[TheHermit (DayZ) 22]

I can only guess that they went with the less tedious/more player friendy route with food loss vs having to wait ~30 secs for every can. But it doesn't then explain the picking apples from tree phenomena. What should be the fastest way to grab a low tier snack is in fact the most tedious in game!

 

There is also a little cute charm to chopping a can open with a machete and losing 80% of the food. The game does have it's little humour and I do hope they retain some of that in lieu of 'realism'. OK the fire hydrant was a bit much, maybe.

 

But other than zuchinni, most of the fresh foods aren't that sustainable. You'll still have to sit there and eat quite a bit which will take up a certain amount of time rather than slashing open cans with your fist!!

Cans will always be the most desired for efficiency, I think. Rice is a whole 'nother story, and I think cereal is pretty accurate.

 

Overall I agree with your angle. If you take the time to loot less common items, you should gain a benefit over the guy that found low tier items within the first 5 minutes of gameplay. I think that's what you're getting at.

 

Me, I just like the idea of having a reason to go off and hide, go somewhere off the beaten path to get your health up, rather than standing in the street LOL. It also adds potential funny mini role play scenarios/strategies.

[Jex 1104]

Overall I agree with your angle. If you take the time to loot less common items, you should gain a benefit over the guy that found low tier items within the first 5 minutes of gameplay. I think that's what you're getting at.

 

Me, I just like the idea of having a reason to go off and hide, go somewhere off the beaten path to get your health up, rather than standing in the street LOL. It also adds potential funny mini role play scenarios/strategies.

 

Berries and bushes take a while and certain things should take time, which of course the player should be able to cancel anytime should a situation arise. 30 seconds or even a minute is nothing when it only has to be done once or a few times. Loads of people grind for hours in MMO's but in MMO's there's no short cut. In DayZ, you don't want to spend as long doing things, get the right tool for the job and you're good.

 

This then promotes players to explore more until they've found all the top tier items (and I'm suddenly reminded I haven't seen a can opener in weeks....) and gives more value to the items. If all you have is an axe and it takes you 30 seconds to open a can then you come across a knife and it takes you 20 seconds you'll notice the difference right away and you'll appreciate a lot more than saving 18% of the food.

 

Cooking steaks takes ages and I like it lol. They just need to add the sound of the fire and the sizzle of the meat ;)

[gibonez 3633]

Entire game needs to be slowed down substancially imo.

 

Movement speed

Lack of animation and ability to run while in your inventory

insane speed of mounting optics and accesories

speed of eating

speed of drinking

 

everything is far too instant.

[Jex 1104]

Entire game needs to be slowed down substancially imo.

 

Movement speed

Lack of animation and ability to run while in your inventory

insane speed of mounting optics and accesories

speed of eating

speed of drinking

 

everything is far too instant.

 

If you want to get into your back pack, your back pack should have to be placed on the ground. I mean in rl I've tried rummaging and flailing my arms behind me but I just end up looking like a loon and the shop assistant is calling the police.

[rybec 339]

If you want to get into your back pack, your back pack should have to be placed on the ground. I mean in rl I've tried rummaging and flailing my arms behind me but I just end up looking like a loon and the shop assistant is calling the police.

Or at least have you slowed to a steady walk while holding your pack with one hand and grabbing things inside with the other.

[gibonez 3633]

If you want to get into your back pack, your back pack should have to be placed on the ground. I mean in rl I've tried rummaging and flailing my arms behind me but I just end up looking like a loon and the shop assistant is calling the police.

I like this idea.

[The Aquatic Land Walrus 565]

How to open can with knife. No problem.

Step one: Put can on flat surface, or hold in hand if you like danger :)

Step two: Stab the top of the can.

Step three: Spin the knife

Step four: Enjoy the chronic flatulence.

Only takes me five to ten seconds, and I love doing that on campouts.

get on my level

[Jex 1104]

How to open can with knife. No problem.

Step one: Put can on flat surface, or hold in hand if you like danger :)

Step two: Stab the top of the can.

Step three: Spin the knife

Step four: Enjoy the chronic flatulence.

Only takes me five to ten seconds, and I love doing that on campouts.

get on my level

 

We're talking about game mechanics here, no how quick it takes in RL and YOU may be able to do it in 10 seconds but most people would take a lot longer than 30. But we could just make them all the same time making the can opener an entirely worthless inventory item. :)

[Troll_Hunter 54]

I agree, there is a lot to do and improve with the animations.

 

Many animations are simply not there yet, and waiting for a graphic bar to fill up is a not satisfying and breaks immersion.

 

But the latest news on the new controller development is encouraging and the new controller will go a long way in blending and making for complex animations, as well as better character control.

 

(Re)loading and chambering.

I like the new taking bullets and load them into your gun before shooting mechanic. Having a Mosin clip will load 10 bullets with 1 button press. An obvious advantage to having loaded stripper clips and magazines over loading single bullets or shells. Chambering happens with the R key, and needs to be done for all weapons accept the ones with last shot hold open; those are instantly ready to shoot upon changing the magazine. These mechanics will emphasise the differences of guns and make them more divers. For sure people will need to adapt their strategy, and weapon choices will change. A Mosin will be much slower in close combat in comparison to a magazine fed gun; just as in real life.

 

 

Backpack animation.

 

I think it makes sense to have items in the backpack NOT EASILY reached. So you have to make sure you put the rounds, cartridges, clips or magazines, but also bandages, maps, compass, etc in you clothes' or vest, now using a vest with many pockets makes sense! Pockets are the quick access slots.

I would love to see a fast in a hurry*(!) kneel and taking off and on backpack animation, after which you can click on the dropped backpack for opening the backpack and see the inventory screen. No more running/moving and grabbing some bullets from your backpack. Your close buddy, or thief, can access your backpack instantly; and putting the backpack's items in either your or his pockets, or on the ground. Of cause a thief could only fill up his own hands and quick pockets, so taking the full contents in 1 grab is not an possibility.

 

In my view Dayz is more a survival strategy - planning and thinking, instead of a twitch shooter; in a way true to the ARMA and BI game design philosophy.

 

 

Animation speed:

 

* in a hurry, I love to see the animations of DAYZ speed up to reflect the player being in a real hurry. This would match the panic and fear of survival situation. The current slow movement animation style are dissonant to the hurry panic situation(s), and break immersion!  To get an idea what in a hurry means, watch some 'run and gun' videos on youtube. - maybe the animation clock is to slow?

 

 

ps. One big animation omission, is the getting on top of a ladder animation; I simply hate the hands holding air when my character reaches the top of a ladder, it really breaks immersion.

pps. the drinking and eating animation also looks unpolished; my mouth is underneath my field of vision ;) and again I want to hear and see people eat and drink as fast as they can, to reflect the desperate survival situation.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Troll_Hunter

[Whyherro123 2283]

 

 

Animation speed:

 

* in a hurry, I love to see the animations of DAYZ speed up to reflect the player being in a real hurry. This would match the panic and fear of survival situation. The current slow movement animation style are dissonant to the hurry panic situation(s), and break immersion!  To get an idea what in a hurry means, watch some 'run and gun' videos on youtube. - maybe the animation clock is to slow?

 

 

ps. One big animation omission, is the getting on top of a ladder animation; I simply hate the hands holding air when my character reaches the top of a ladder, it really breaks immersion.

pps. the drinking and eating animation also looks unpolished; my mouth is underneath my field of vision ;) and again I want to hear and see people eat and drink as fast as they can, to reflect the desperate survival situation.

 

I would like to debate the last point. In an "actual survival situation", you don't want to be rushing around. Rushing through something makes you MUCH more likely to make a mistake, and therefore, hurt yourself. 

 

Case in point: last weekend, I went camping with my Scout troop. The kids are rather young (between 12 and 15), and as such, they have a tendency to get ....... "excited", and want to do things as fast as possible. One of the Scouts was opening cans of soup for lunch with a can opener. He tried to open them quickly, and actually stabbed himself in the hand with my can opener when it slipped. Because I keep my tools sharp and clean, the wound was relatively minor, but in a Day Z -like situation, that would be a serious infection risk. Later on, a different Scout took a pot of water to the fire. Because he was rushing, he actually dumped the pot of water onto the fire. Luckily, he managed to avoid jamming his hand into the embers, but it was still a giant PITA to rebuild the fire.

 

On the hike to the site, one of the kids got bored with the slow pace, and double-timed it ahead. Because he was rushing, he rolled his ankle, tripped, and faceplanted into the cold, wet ground. Now, because this wasn't a survival situation (had extra clothing, pain relievers, and he had on high boots), his injuries were effectively little more than a bruised ego. But, do that in a "survival situation", and you could easily break your leg. 

 

All in all, in an actual "survival situation", you want to take things as SLOWLY as possible. Walk, don't run. Walk around things as opposed to stepping over them. Etc etc etc. Doing anything quickly drastically increases the chances of you messing up, which in turn results in either injury or failure. Plus, doing something slowly and calmly lets you remain "in control" of yourself much easily. The biggest "enemy" during a survival situation isn't the weather (although its a big one), wild animals, or even zombies. It is yourself, giving in to fear and panic. When you are afraid, you make bad decisions. Remaining in control of your emotions is #1 in any situation, and during my Wilderness Survival class, I would instantly fail anyone who panicked or showed fear, regardless of how proficient they were.

 

Panic and fear is bad. Moving fast is bad

[OnionOfShame 138]

Right now I never take a can opener. First thing I do when I spawn is make an improvised knife, it usually only loses like 3% of the can and doubles as a weapon or a tool to tear rags and chop bushes down, etc, all in one slot. If i find Military Boots and a Combat Knife I'll take those and drop the improvised, nearly identical stats but it won't take up a slot in my bag. The can opener is just a can opener. The only advantage it has is that it's still fully functional after it gets ruined, which isn't that much of an advantage. It would be nice if having the can opener actually made a difference, and I think the way to make that happen is by making opening a can a timed action.

Edited November 18, 2015 by OnionOfShame

[Troll_Hunter 54]

Hi Whyhero,

 

Well I fully agree with your assessments. I've climbed mountains such as the Mont-Blanc, and I know that avoiding injury is high if not the highest priority.

 

We all know this, and surely we'll act accordingly when we got the time, or even if we need to sacrifice (part of) the night.

 

"Bang!"

 

Now a sound of shot rattles your cage, and zombies rush in! Would you still carefully walk, or would you sprint to get out harms way?

Then 8 zombies block your path closing in, and you have to fire your mosin. You nervous hands kills 6, but your gun saying click - click -click! two are still coming. You (carefully or frantically?) reach in your pocket (pick the right quick slot!) to grab a few extra rounds to (put or JAM) in your mosin?

I think normal people would be as nervous and as hell. And for sure their movements are less coordinated and more frantic. Speedy big animations fit fighting moments.

My point is that the current animations look like performed for accuracy, slow and deliberate, but not for speed. I like to see more the speed to reflect the dire urgency of killing or being killed.

Maybe the simple thing to do is to simply play the animation faster.

If you still want to have the same reloading time, you can just add a sound of a hand fishing bullets out of a pocket followed by the speed up loading animation.

Surely opening of the can can be done in the same time, but having faster and more arm movements would present a character that is working harder to survive, not like a person that is slowly opening a beer can laying in the sun at the beach enjoying his vacation. ;)

Edited November 19, 2015 by Troll_Hunter

[Troll_Hunter 54]

Right now I never take a can opener. First thing I do when I spawn is make an improvised knife, it usually only loses like 3% of the can and doubles as a weapon or a tool to tear rags and chop bushes down, etc, all in one slot. If i find Military Boots and a Combat Knife I'll take those and drop the improvised, nearly identical stats but it won't take up a slot in my bag. The can opener is just a can opener. The only advantage it has is that it's still fully functional after it gets ruined, which isn't that much of an advantage. It would be nice if having the can opener actually made a difference, and I think the way to make that happen is by making opening a can a timed action.

 

In real live a can opener would make a difference, they are lighter weight, and much more available in an urban (kitchen setting).

However like you, and most others I think a hunter knife is by far a more versatile tool.

Maybe a Swiss army knive is a nice lightweight option for cutting meet, opening cans, and it may have a compass too.

[Whyherro123 2283]

Hi Whyhero,

 

Well I fully agree with your assessments. I've climbed mountains such as the Mont-Blanc, and I know that avoiding injury is high if not the highest priority.

 

We all know this, and surely we'll act accordingly when we got the time, or even if we need to sacrifice (part of) the night.

 

"Bang!"

 

Now a sound of shot rattles your cage, and zombies rush in! Would you still carefully walk, or would you sprint to get out harms way?

Then 8 zombies block your path closing in, and you have to fire your mosin. You nervous hands kills 6, but your gun saying click - click -click! two are still coming. You (carefully or frantically?) reach in your pocket (pick the right quick slot!) to grab a few extra rounds to (put or JAM) in your mosin?

I think normal people would be as nervous and as hell. And for sure their movements are less coordinated and more frantic. Speedy big animations fit fighting moments.

My point is that the current animations look like performed for accuracy, slow and deliberate, but not for speed. I like to see more the speed to reflect the dire urgency of killing or being killed.

Maybe the simple thing to do is to simply play the animation faster.

If you still want to have the same reloading time, you can just add a sound of a hand fishing bullets out of a pocket followed by the speed up loading animation.

Surely opening of the can can be done in the same time, but having faster and more arm movements would present a character that is working harder to survive, not like a person that is slowly opening a beer can laying in the sun at the beach enjoying his vacation. ;)

 

I still maintain that doing things slowly and deliberately is more "effective" 99% of the time.

 

Would I sprint away from "zombies", or would I walk? ......are you really asking me that? Seriously? Of fucking course I would run away from the zombies. I wouldn't sprint, though. That is a good way to trip (over something on the ground, over even over your own two feet). A nice steady jog would expand the distance nicely.

 

When reloading, I would quickly but carefully remove the rounds from my pocket, which I ideally would have readily available for just this situation. ( I am a fervent believer in that where you put things in your inventory determines how fast you can get to them. In a vest/belt pouch? Fastest retrieval. Stuffed in a pants pocket? Have to dig for it, takes a little longer. Deep inside a backpack? You have to take that sucker off). Frantically grasping for loose rounds is a great way to drop them. Same thing with loading. Stuffing the rounds frantically into the chamber is a great way to jam the firearm. Move deliberately, not frantically.

 

Of course, realistically, I would back myself into a corner and start to crush skulls with the Mosin buttstock. No need to frantically reload, or even run away. Just reverse the firearm and go to town. 

[micalo 13]

Entire game needs to be slowed down substancially imo.

 

Movement speed

Lack of animation and ability to run while in your inventory

insane speed of mounting optics and accesories

speed of eating

speed of drinking

 

everything is far too instant.

hell no, I don't want to play an "eating simulator" or spend half an hour to prepare a "campfire"

it's a game!

zombieapocalypse!!!

if you want to spend a realistic amount of time on things: there is a better game, it is called "life"

walk to the supermarket, grab you some nice ingredients, and cook yourself a delicious meal or invite someone, and enjoy your time

edit: and yes, I can search for things even in my backpack while I am running, might miss a detail on the road and trip, though - so this is quite accurate

less realistic is, that i have to go to the inventory to check if i am hungry (once again: https://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/229590-understanding-realism-in-computer-games-through-phenomenology-dayz-discussion/?hl=immersion )

Edited November 19, 2015 by micalo

[Jex 1104]

Can we start thinking about changing the time it takes to do things so "the right tool for the job" is worth something?

 

I can open a can of food with a can opener in exactly the same time it takes me to do it with an axe. I've opened cans with knives before and it takes ages compared to a can opener. I'm not even sure how you would open a can with an axe.

 

If I use a badly damaged sewing kit to repair my trousers, it should take a lot longer to do than a pristine set.

 

Tasks should be taking a lot longer when using the wrong tools and then get faster with better tools....

 

Open a can of....

Screwdriver.....30 second

Knife............20 seconds

Can opener.....5 seconds

 

Fuck me the beans for this comment were a little delayed, weren't they??? LOL

[scriptfactory 620]

Can we start thinking about changing the time it takes to do things so "the right tool for the job" is worth something?

 

I can open a can of food with a can opener in exactly the same time it takes me to do it with an axe. I've opened cans with knives before and it takes ages compared to a can opener. I'm not even sure how you would open a can with an axe.

 

If I use a badly damaged sewing kit to repair my trousers, it should take a lot longer to do than a pristine set.

 

Tasks should be taking a lot longer when using the wrong tools and then get faster with better tools....

 

Open a can of....

Screwdriver.....30 second

Knife............20 seconds

Can opener.....5 seconds

 

I feel the focus on this game should be on surviving and not waiting for a timer to run out. That being said I think it is much more intuitive to have the "open" action take more time and completely removing the food loss mechanic. I mean, I can, literally, open a can with a rock and not lose any of the contents...

[micalo 13]

Can we start thinking about changing the time it takes to do things so "the right tool for the job" is worth something?

 

I can open a can of food with a can opener in exactly the same time it takes me to do it with an axe. I've opened cans with knives before and it takes ages compared to a can opener. I'm not even sure how you would open a can with an axe.

 

If I use a badly damaged sewing kit to repair my trousers, it should take a lot longer to do than a pristine set.

 

Tasks should be taking a lot longer when using the wrong tools and then get faster with better tools....

 

Open a can of....

Screwdriver.....30 second

Knife............20 seconds

Can opener.....5 seconds

I completely disagree: regarding realism: 90% of the can openers suck and their handling is not so quick, yet I can smash a can with one swing of my axe - and loose a lot of the content! that food loss does not matter at the moment is a different story, and cannot serve as an argument to turn dayz into a "find 5 ingredients and spend so much of your time to craft item yxz"

application of imperfect tools usually not prolongs the task, but more often renders the product worthless

I don't understand the obsession to turn games into something tedious, adding simplest tasks for the sake of "realism" - you end up playing a game where you do nothing more than in every day life - well you do it instead of living your life.

In almost every house in dayz there is a computer - maybe it should be more realistic, and possible to turn them on and play, let's say a survival game...

Edited November 19, 2015 by micalo

[Jex 1104]

I feel the focus on this game should be on surviving and not waiting for a timer to run out. That being said I think it is much more intuitive to have the "open" action take more time and completely removing the food loss mechanic. I mean, I can, literally, open a can with a rock and not lose any of the contents...

 

The point is to give value to items. U have a rock - that makes every other implement in the game useless as it does it as well. The whole reason for making things take longer is because they would. You go and try and gut a cow with a stone knife and I'll do the same with a nice sharp steel one and we'll see who takes longer. Time is the thing players don't like to waste so that's why you make the timings more realistic to the quality of the tool being used. If you don't like spending 30 seconds gutting with a stone knife, find a real knife and do it in 10.

 

What this does is it pushes people to want to find better gear because it has a real in game benefit to them. That benefit then transfers into fear when they get into a firefight. Meaningless gear nobody cares about - look at COD - you always start fully geared. DayZ, you spend 3 hours looking for gear, getting the right clothes for the look you have and collecting the best tools in the game you are going to feel the game coming to get you when you realise you could lose it all.

 

That's the reason everyone played DayZ in the first place.

[OrLoK 16182]

Hello there

 

I think the devs *will* revisit this and indeed interaction in general.

 

Not that this thread doesnt have worth, but I do think it will be addressed.

 

if not we have this thread ready for the modders

 

rgds

 

LoK