Weapons Expertise Skill System

[Toops 27]

Premise: If you've ever shot a gun, you know that feeling of aiming right at a target, pulling the trigger, missing, and you're like, WHAT? I was aiming RIGHT AT IT!

 

Summary: Once you find a decent gun, it's too easy to hit your target. I propose a soft-skill system that, with time and practice, allows your character to get better at hitting your target with a firearm.

 

Purpose: Soft-skill leveling systems will add replay value through continued progression. It will add long-term investment in your character, and create interesting survival trade-offs.

 

Synopsis: 

 

In reality, hitting a static object with a gun is physically difficult, and takes a lot of practice. Hitting a moving, living target is extremely difficult, and takes years of training to be effective under pressure. Most survivors are civilians. They would generally be unskilled with firearms, and would have trouble hitting static, non-living targets.

 

Also, humans get really nervous when looking at human-sized animals with intent to kill. There's an uncontrollable physiological reaction to aiming at a large living thing and then mentally committing to ending its life. I can only imagine how scary it would be to shoot a zombie, knowing you're giving away your position. Adrenaline reduces accuracy, but training minimizes the effects.

 

The following elements/subsystems are just suggestions, mainly to stimulate conversation.

 

There would be primary attributes :

-trajectoryRadius: the potential deviation from your intended target at 100 yards. 

-gunSwayRadius: how far is the gun traveling when aimed down sights

-gunSwayRate: how fast the gun is traveling along the gunSwayRadius

 

The main attributes that you can improve, and ultimately reduce trajectoryRadius would be:

-baseAccuracy: ignoring all other factors, what is my trajectoryRadius?

-animalComposure: how accurate am I when shooting at animals? affects trajectoryRadius and gunSwayRate

-humanComposure: how accurate am I when shooting at humans? affects trajectoryRadius and gunSwayRate

-zombieComposure: how accurate am I when shooting at zeds? affects trajectoryRadius and gunSwayRate

-adrenalineComposure: are you aiming at a human-sized animal? are you being shot at? have you been spotted by a zombie? affects gunSwayRadius

 

Every time you aim at a target and shoot, you improve baseAccuracy. That means shooting at anything from trees to humans to static targets in the wilderness. But be careful you don't give up your location while improving your skills!

Every time you aim and fire at the given targetType, you improve that composureType

Every time you are in a high-risk situation (shooting at person, being shot at, chased by zombie, etc), you improve your adrenalineComposure

 

An attribute that you cannot improve, that would increase trajectoryRadius would be

-healthFactor: are you sick? wounded? etc

 

Example1: Fresh Spawn

baseAccuracy: 36 inches

animalComposure: 0

humanComposure: 0

zombieComposure: 0

adrenalineComposure: 0

 

I'm not very good with guns, my base trajectoryRadius (with no improvement) is 36 inches at 100 yards. As I shoot firearms more and more, my trajectoryRadius would approach an expert 1 inch.

 

Example2: Survivalist

As a veteran survivalist, I shoot a lot of animals, which has given me:

baseAccuracy: 5 inches

animalComposure: 25

humanComposure: 2

zombieComposure: 3

adrenalineComposure: 4

 

Situation: Wouldn't you know it, the first time I enter a town in days and I'm taking fire from another person! I have a harder time hitting that person than I do a deer, because my humanComposure is very low, and adrenalineComposure is not as high as a bandit or sniper. But I'm still much more effective than a fresh spawn. In this situation, my trajectoryRadius is 14 inches at 100 yards.

 

Example3: Bandit

I hang out on the coast outside of towns and shoot fresh spawns.

baseAccuracy: 6 inches

animalComposure: 0

humanComposure: 14

zombieComposure: 6

adrenalineComposure: 29

 

Situation: I'm taking fire from a sniper. I flank him but now I have a zombie on my 6 and I'm breathing hard. I aim down at the sniper 100 yards out. My humanComposure is really good so I'm not worried about taking this tango down, my trajectoryRadius is 7 inches. Next, I aim down at the zombie. My trajectoryRadius is 12 inches at 100 yards cause I'm freaking out.

 

Other musings: 

-More general gun sway when aiming down sights: Novices don't know how to hold or balance a weapon, and their hands typically get uncontrollably shaky once they mentally commit to firing the weapon.

-Firing from the hip: It's clownshoes, and should miss like 90% of the time, like it does in real life.

-Gun drawRate: the better you are with guns, the faster you can draw it up to your sights

-Gun reloadRate: the more you use that kind of gun, the faster you can reload it

-Guns jam constantly: Make jams very common (they are irl). The frequency with which you have to clean your weapon so it doesn't jam takes OCD-like dedication. Make weapon cleaning kits very rare, so it's very likely to have to work through a jam in a firefight.

Edited January 26, 2015 by BoopyFriend

[SomeCallMeNomad (DayZ) 89]

I like it! :beans:

[Valdenburg 200]

Every time you aim at a target and shoot, you improve baseAccuracy. That means shooting at trees, or targets in the wilderness. But be careful you don't give up your location while improving your skills!

 I allrdy see macros being written for just skilling up.

 

It would end up with exclusive servers where people do nothing but raise the skill.

 

No thanks :D

[Conrad_The_Comrade 577]

These are the types of "Skills" that I want to see :D Beautifully done sir, and thank gawd for not suggesting I be able to tank through a town if I level up enough ;)

[Draco122 412]

I'm not sure I'm onboard with the idea that skill progression can be made purely by shooting tree's as targets. I think that perhaps a more suitable idea for this would be that you had to craft a target. Perhaps for example, one can make a target out of a burlap sack, some straw or grass and then painted in the form of a target. It can then be attached to tree's and this would in essence be your target, there you can gradually gain skill progression, providing you A) have enough ammo (it would make the Sporter 22 viable for target practice) and B ) were suitable in a secluded area where your gunshots wont attract too much attention

Edited January 26, 2015 by Draco122

[DURRHUNTER 597]

No, this isnt Skyrim, this is pure survival, not a 'im level blah blah blah so i can shoot with iron sights accurately to 700m'.

Nope from me, its a silly idea, yes in real life this happens, but its not going to work with everyone, i personally dont want to have to waist ammo shooting trees or at a target making my aim perfect.

 

Guns are guns, you point, pull the trigger, and boom, the bullet hits where you shot, unless the scope is off, or the Czechs messed with the iron sights on your Mauser.

Edited January 26, 2015 by DURRHUNTER

[Conrad_The_Comrade 577]

No, this isnt Skyrim, this is pure survival, not a 'im level blah blah blah so i can shoot with iron sights accurately to 700m'.

Nope from me, its a silly idea, yes in real life this happens, but its not going to work with everyone, i personally dont want to have to waist ammo shooting trees or at a target making my aim perfect.

Then don't waste your ammo? Shoot at those zeds and hope for the best, but when you miss cause you didn't practice... ;)

[Sleeves 98]

This is a horrible idea.

Once again, the idea of player morality and other similar ideas must be brought up.

Yes, in real life I would have difficulty shooting someone for a bean can, but this is not real life, it is a game. I should not have my characters aim go to shit because his feelings would be hurt.

[cywehner1234 582]

I wouldnt mind a very very soft system, but nothing much. Maybe by firing your mosin 50 times you can increase accuracy by 2%, but other than that, no. I mean, VERY soft skills. Run for 10 km in total, sprint 3% faster, and be able to hold breath .25 seconds longer. 

[gibonez 3633]

Yea more RPG elements not a good idea.

 

I am in favor of having the shooting mechanics be extremely realistic and mimic real life so any shooting progressing is done entirely because the player has learned not because the player artificially gets better.

[NicoBaloira1357 24]

When I saw the title I was like nah, fucking not, but after reading it I kinda like it!

[ToySmokes 116]

I personally really like this idea. If this was added to the game, people would start carring about there character because otherwise you would not only have to get new loot when you die. But also "level up" your skills. I think that soft skills are on the Road Map so we will probably see something that has to do with that. I'm all for it short said!

 

Edit: Didn't spell "loot" correct (how the f*ck? ;P)

Edited February 24, 2015 by MrCactusMan

[Avant-Garde 229]

This is such a well made thread man, good job. The idea, imo, is a must for a game like this. Where the endgame can be having a pro shooter survival instead of loot. Gives players a lot more options on how to play.

 

Maybe these softskills idea could be applied to melee!

 

But not only combat, I believe we should have softskills a lot of things like foraging, cooking, medical skills and all that, so people who play in groups can especialise themselfs. I seriously can't see one single solid argument against the idea. I think that the more RPG elements we have, the better.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Avant-Garde

[Toops 27]

This is such a well made thread man, good job. The idea, imo, is a must for a game like this. Where the endgame can be having a pro shooter survival instead of loot. Gives players a lot more options on how to play.

 

Maybe these softskills idea could be applied to melee!

 

But not only combat, I believe we should have softskills a lot of things like foraging, cooking, medical skills and all that, so people who play in groups can especialise themselfs. I seriously can't see one single solid argument against the idea. I think that the more RPG elements we have, the better.

Hey thanks man. Look I totally agree that cooking/medical/foraging should have their own LIGHTWEIGHT skill systems too (lightweight guys, nothing crazy). Paradoxically, having systems like this will allow for many different playstyles, and free up the game, unless they really botch it. However you like to play, just play like that, and your character will modestly improve in those areas. 

 

I just don't see how this game will have any longevity unless there is some reward for actually surviving. This is just my opinion, but if it's just a sandbox lootfest + pvpfest like it is now, where the clans just server-hop and gank all the top-tier loot, with no way to stay engaged with a character, and no real reason to preserve your own life once adequately geared, this game will be the biggest disappointment since Diablo 3.

 

Every single game developer needs to learn from how hard Diablo 3 failed: Blizzard misunderstood the psychology of loot grinding completely. For most people, there has to be a constant stream of small upgrades, with the potential of low-probability big upgrades, to stay engaged with a game like this. Once you get the stuff you want, without some kind of character building mechanics, you will disassociate from that character, go all Rambo and, ultimately, die. If that's what everyone wants, that's totally fine. But that's definitely not what I want.

[Toops 27]

Yea more RPG elements not a good idea.

 

I am in favor of having the shooting mechanics be extremely realistic and mimic real life so any shooting progressing is done entirely because the player has learned not because the player artificially gets better.

 

Now of all the viewpoints opposing character progression, this one makes the most sense to me. I would not go so far as to call it "RPG elements." I'm not talking about a character sheet with STR/DEX/VIT and all that crap. Make no mistake, characters in DayZ already have those concepts associated to them.  I just don't think this game will have any longevity as a survival game without a reason for your character to survive, and a system that rewards you for doing so.

 

Like I said in a previous post, the last thing I want is game-changing systems that can be min-maxed. I don't want anyone to actually have to think about character design, "build types" or anything like that. none of these attributes would even be visible to you through a character screen. I want to avoid RPG breakpoints and cookie-cutter build stuff just as much as the next guy. I totally get that. 

 

But if I jog everywhere, I think it's completely reasonable that over time, my character will be able to jog faster, for longer amounts of time before my feet and leg muscles get tired. If I am constantly fighting zombies in close quarters, I should get marginally better at hitting them in the head with my melee weapon. The key here is marginal gains. Again, nothing that's gonna make people fire up their own server so they can "max" their skills.

 

Most of the people against the idea seem to have some axe to grind with traditional game design elements, which is kind of punk rock and awesome.. But I've yet to hear an argument against lightweight progression elements that compels me to change my mind. I'm very open to being convinced, though!

Edited January 27, 2015 by BoopyFriend

[sachad 1016]

Well, I like the idea, but I still think it'd turn some public servers into skillfarms. If there's gains to be had, no matter how small, people will try and find the best possible shortcuts to get them. On private hives, I can't see any issue with some minor skill progression. You can still try to farm skills by, say, chopping logs all day, but you'll still need to consider everyone else on the server. 

[Sleeves 98]

Can there by a papyrus making skill? I just hope being a Pastafarian does not stop me from living this dream.

[gannon46 788]

so you want to add grinding to dayz ummmmmm no i can see no way this can be balanced at all. it would be a bunch off asshats that just farm zeds on low pop or these supposedly public servers that kick everyone max out skills then just kill everything with no weapon sway and excellent accuracy. now if they would add in disease a life span and a very authentic medical system like if you get shot in a vital area your fucked like mr.orange in reservoir dogs then i could see it as combat would have a little more risks involved than just bandaging or morphine/splint. and we would also need soft skills in farming cooking carpentry such as barricading hell even building fires since most folks i know can't start one without a lighter etc. again i just don't see the need as of now for skills it would just fuck up everything i know there are a lot of honest players that would level honestly but look at how some folks are it would just be shit not your idea or the mechanic itself but the players themselves would make it shit.

Edited January 27, 2015 by gannon46

[Toops 27]

so you want to add grinding to dayz ummmmmm no i can see no way this can be balanced at all. it would be a bunch off asshats that just farm zeds on low pop or these supposedly public servers that kick everyone max out skills then just kill everything with no weapon sway and excellent accuracy. now if they would add in disease a life span and a very authentic medical system like if you get shot in a vital area your fucked like mr.orange in reservoir dogs then i could see it as combat would have a little more risks involved than just bandaging or morphine/splint. and we would also need soft skills in farming cooking carpentry such as barricading hell even building fires since most folks i know can't start one without a lighter etc. again i just don't see the need as of now for skills it would just fuck up everything i know there are a lot of honest players that would level honestly but look at how some folks are it would just be shit not your idea or the mechanic itself but the players themselves would make it shit.

 

Dude I hate grinding too, that's the last thing I want. But I do want to feel like there's an incentive to survive. I think a lot of poorly designed/executed/balanced games half-assedly pull in rpg-style features just to get people cheaply addicted to the game. That sucks, and I agree. The perils of cheaply designed stats and skill trees that require min/maxing are real.  But let's not throw the baby out with the bath-water here.

 

If Bohemia implements a skill system, your "maximum" gains just absolutely must not be that much better than base-level. IMO it should always be hard to hit a living target at more than 50 yards. Otherwise the game is out of balance by design, and now everyone is required to powerlevel their character else be a gimp. That's garbage, nobody wants that.

 

One solution: Make your skill improvements purely time-based. So the longer you stay alive the higher your accuracy and poise under pressure. Doesn't matter how much you use the skill. That way, it's 100% impossible to powerlevel. And again, just to reiterate, even if you're alive for a year, your accuracy should not be that much better than a fresh spawn. But it should be noticeably better.

 

The alternative is skill-use-based progression, which I fully support. In any case, over time, you should just get a sense that you're hitting targets slightly more often, or that your gun is not moving around or jamming quite as much as it used to. After two weeks of playing a char, you might realize quite out of the blue, hey! I aim down my mosin faster than I used to!

 

As another balancing element, you could make every skill have an equally bad trade-off. Here are some examples:

-the better you are at shooting animals, the worse you are at shooting people

-the higher your killing aptitude, the worse you are at growing food and cooking

-the more calm you are under fire (better adrenalineComposure), the faster your sanity depletes when you're not in combat (assuming they implement a sanity system, which is a HUGE assumption)

 

Anyway, you get the idea. I have some other examples of skill trade-offs in the fitness thread. Like the more you jog, the better you get at jogging.. BUT the lower your body fat and higher your metabolism, so you starve faster and get cold faster.

 

Ultimately what I want is replayability, and for me that comes through progression. But the only kind of progression that captivates me is a balanced system of trade-offs, where every choice you make both gives you something, and takes something away.

Edited January 27, 2015 by BoopyFriend

[Toops 27]

No, this isnt Skyrim, this is pure survival, not a 'im level blah blah blah so i can shoot with iron sights accurately to 700m'.

Nope from me, its a silly idea, yes in real life this happens, but its not going to work with everyone, i personally dont want to have to waist ammo shooting trees or at a target making my aim perfect.

 

Guns are guns, you point, pull the trigger, and boom, the bullet hits where you shot, unless the scope is off, or the Czechs messed with the iron sights on your Mauser.

 

It's not a silly idea. Your immature reduction of my complex idea into a silly idea sounds silly, I'll give you that.  I get it, you want 24-hour ezmode, but if that's what Bohemia delivers, I'm disappoint.

Edited January 27, 2015 by BoopyFriend

[Prophet_01 1]

I disagree. A fight should be and cirrently is determined by the player's tactical position, knowledge about the games mechanics and experience. Judging distances, knowing the area, teamwork (a scout can be a huge advantage), experience with your weapon and equipment. That's the stuff that matters most when it comes to gun fights in dayz. This is some kind of skill system, but its not toed to your char, but to the player. I just don't see a the need for it. Stress and keeping yourself calm and concentrated already are parts of the game. I've played in groups of 2 to 4 people and have seen many stupid things happen because people were scared. Experienced players completely missing theire target with a full magazin or running off... the permadeath and steep learning courve of dayz make a skill system mostly obsolete in my opinion

[Sleeves 98]

We should resort to rolling dice, it is both fair and would impede those nasty KoS kitties. B^)

[DURRHUNTER 597]

It's not a silly idea. Your immature reduction of my complex idea into a silly idea sounds silly, I'll give you that.  I get it, you want 24-hour ezmode, but if that's what Bohemia delivers, I'm disappoint.

thats just what a person that wants a hardcore survival game and not a RPG style level up system with super cool stuff and achievements.

I want brutal survival. No bells and whistles, pure survival.

[Toops 27]

thats just what a person that wants a hardcore survival game and not a RPG style level up system with super cool stuff and achievements.

I want brutal survival. No bells and whistles, pure survival.

 

Now that's totally fair, I also want brutal survival. That's how this idea came up, is I was riffing on how easy it is to hit people from 300 yards right now, or 100 yards with iron sights. It's leading to gameplay that resembles neither brutality nor survival. Even if they don't introduce a soft-skill system for weapons use, I really hope they make it harder to hit your target in general.

[DURRHUNTER 597]

Now that's totally fair, I also want brutal survival. That's how this idea came up, is I was riffing on how easy it is to hit people from 300 yards right now, or 100 yards with iron sights. It's leading to gameplay that resembles neither brutality nor survival. Even if they don't introduce a soft-skill system for weapons use, I really hope they make it harder to hit your target in general.

The game is a work in progress, a early alpha, so what do you expect? i mean there is only so much you can do.