Are Bandits a bad thing?

[PhillyT 554]

Wartime and post wartime survival society?

 

The American West in the 1800's with relative anarchy, theft, claim jumping, and murder?

[scriptfactory 620]

I would really like specific examples. Your words are not backed up by facts, PhillyT.

p.s. Are you the same PhillyT from Falcon?

Edited January 6, 2015 by scriptfactory

[dricht1 28]

Wartime and post wartime survival society?

 

The American West in the 1800's with relative anarchy, theft, claim jumping, and murder?

I can pretty much guarantee that the majority of people in that time period did not spend more time attempting to murder people than interacting with them.

 

A minority, maybe, but what you are describing is not the same as the current situation in DayZ.

[Whyherro123 2283]

Wartime and post wartime survival society?

 

The American West in the 1800's with relative anarchy, theft, claim jumping, and murder?

Oh GOD

 

Do some actual research into the matter, please, and you will realize that the West was not all that wild. Most of the people settling in the West were either Veterans of the US Civil War, or their families. They knew how to use a gun, and usually didn't take much shit from bandits and the like. Each town had their own (organized) judicial system, and region-wide law and order was usually enforced by large companies, usually the railroads that towns were built on, because they found that war, banditry, and general lawlessness was bad for business. In places where the local government was inefficient, the people instead formed commitiies and the like to make sure the laws were enforced and crime was down.

 

http://mises.org/library/not-so-wild-wild-west

[PhillyT 554]

Britain during the war:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/aug/29/blitz-london-crime-flourish-blackout

 

Christopher Ward wrote about banditry durign the American Revolution in the area around New York city.  I'll find the book.

 

Looting in civilian centers during WWII

http://spartacus-educational.com/2WWcrime.htm

 

Theft of food and items during periods of famine were common:

https://books.google.com/books?id=2jYdfkY8fQUC&pg=PA148&lpg=PA148&dq=food+theft+during+famine&source=bl&ots=pyqaeTRcHK&sig=HorWUMdjdaJRCWGfZAnuKJ7Fqnk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BA2sVLuvIdG1sQTU_IKADg&ved=0CCQQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=food%20theft%20during%20famine&f=false

 

Basically, anytime a central authority is weakened or reduced, the criminal elements of society will replace that order with crime and abuse, greed and self enrichment.  It is a known and understood concept that is exaggerated when looked at through fantasy and sci-fi for post apocalyptic settings.

 

Yes, that is me on Falcon!

[PhillyT 554]

Oh GOD

 

Do some actual research into the matter, please, and you will realize that the West was not all that wild. Most of the people settling in the West were either Veterans of the US Civil War, or their families. They knew how to use a gun, and usually didn't take much shit from bandits and the like. Each town had their own (organized) judicial system, and region-wide law and order was usually enforced by large companies, usually the railroads that towns were built on, because they found that war, banditry, and general lawlessness was bad for business. In places where the local government was inefficient, the people instead formed commitiies and the like to make sure the laws were enforced and crime was down.

 

http://mises.org/library/not-so-wild-wild-west

 

I wasn't referring to the fantasy "Wild West" I was referring to those regions lacking a central authority who was capable of enforcing laws.  The Rail road companies were able to, but much of that ability was an outgrowth of the stability of the Eastern United States.  With DayZ, like most post apocalyptic time periods, you have no previously existing authority remaining.  What authority exists is new, growing, and challenged.  Don't assume something when it is you who lacks an understanding of a point or argument.

[scriptfactory 620]

Basically, anytime a central authority is weakened or reduced, the criminal elements of society will replace that order with crime and abuse, greed and self enrichment.  It is a known and understood concept that is exaggerated when looked at through fantasy and sci-fi for post apocalyptic settings.

 

You seem to be arguing a different subject than me. I'm not saying theft wouldn't exist. This is pretty much the premise of a post-apocalyptic scenario, right?... Scavenging and theft. I am saying that people wouldn't be running around shooting each other in the head to take others stuff. And society would regulate itself quite quickly, as is always the case.

Edited January 6, 2015 by scriptfactory

[PhillyT 554]

We are arguing the same thing, we are just taking different angles.  We have evidence of people using violence to take scarce resources.  It has happened and it is happening.

 

I think we separate on the assumption that humans will band together in a positive sense rather than resort to violence.  Many will, but they will still need to defend themselves from those forces not interested in benevolent cooperation.

 

Historically, the time it took for groups to recover from a calamity could be quite a long time.  And in many cases, it was a one time occurrence that was being responded to.  In the case of DayZ, we have a problem that is continuing, zombies and a lack of central authority, and a limited resource that is not going to be replaced, canned and processed foods.

 

Additionally, you say order ALWAYS returns quickly.  In the past, order is returned by virtue of order existing externally.  DayZ takes place in what is assumed to be a global calamity.  There is no external authority to come in and take power.  If order needs to occur internally, it very well could become messy, broken, and nearly impossible.  People do things illogical when they are facing death and starvation.

[bfisher 561]

Look, according to the Mod site, there have been over 9 million player "murders" in DayZ. 

http://dayzmod.com/

 

IOW, over a period of 2-3 years, the DayZ community of 1.7 unique players has manage to implement one and a half WW II Nazi Holocausts or ten to fifteen Rwanda Genocides .  That doesn't include zombies killed or stats from the Standalone.  

 

I think it's safe to say that the world of Chernarus is a lot more violent than the real world even under the worst circumstances.

 

 

That said, DayZ is not supposed to be a "real world" simulator.  It's supposed to feel like a realistic portrayal of a zombie apocalypse as portrayed in popular fiction like The Walking Dead, 28 Days Later and the Romero zombie films (including The Crazies and it's remake), with a touch of general post-apocalyptic works like I Am Legend, The Road, Mad Max, The Postman and Book of Eli. 

 

IOW, a bleak, desperate world filled with zombies, the ruins of civilization and crazy A-holes who would sooner kill you than ask you for directions.

[reapers239 57]

No, we wouldn't be trying to kill each other for a can of beans. We would try to rebuild society since we only had one life to live.

Example: All of the poor, starving people in central Africa aren't murdering each other for food. The killing is a political power struggle between Christians and Muslims.

 

try living outside of US or any first world country and come back with your post to see if it changed. i lived half of my life between US and Brazil. To say ppl will not kill for food and give Africa as an example? dude go look up gore type sites IN AFRICA they burn thieves who steal one or two potatoes alive in the middle of the street in broad day light. 

 

In some ghetto neighborhoods here in Brazil if you look in the wrong way and the criminal doesn't like it your dead.  

 

As to the OP Welcome to dayz, it will mess with your head, not because of the game but because of how humans think. Even if a zombie apocalypse will/might never happened any brake down of modern countries where ppl became so used to everything being manufactured will cause all the problems that has been touched in this forum in the past years. 

 

 

And bandits are needed it is part of it.

Edited January 8, 2015 by reapers239

[Jex 1104]

People kill one another every day for reasons completely unrelated to "political power struggles".  In a world were resources are limited and the dead are walking around trying to kill eat you, there will be thus that view other survivors as a threat to their own survival.   Either as competition for the limited resources or due to them having something they need.  When pushed to the brink humans can be very noble and very evil beings.

 

Nope. People won't kill each other over cans of beans or anything because we're a social species and we work together and no, why would anyone view another person as a threat to your survival? What nonsense is this? Anyone that joins your party in a real world apocalypse increases your chances of survival, not diminishes them and what limited resources - food is going to be in abundance.

[Jex 1104]

try living outside of US or any first world country and come back with your post to see if it changed. i lived half of my life between US and Brazil. To say ppl will not kill for food and give Africa as an example? dude go look up gore type sites IN AFRICA they burn thieves who steal one or two potatoes alive in the middle of the street in broad day light. 

 

In some ghetto neighborhoods here in Brazil if you look in the wrong way and the criminal doesn't like it your dead.  

 

As to the OP Welcome to dayz, it will mess with your head, not because of the game but because of how humans think. Even if a zombie apocalypse will/might never happened any brake down of modern countries where ppl became so used to everything being manufactured will cause all the problems that has been touched in this forum in the past years. 

 

 

And bandits are needed it is part of it.

 

If this were true the human race would never had survived. However, anthropology and history prove you wrong.

[krazypenguin 174]

Sadly, I have to say that I think that bandits are a good thing.  Rightly or wrongly, if the Devs removed the ability of players to harm other players, they would be removing the largest challenge the game has.  

 

I am not scared of the zombies and I'm not scared of the environmental\physical affects in the game.  I can hide in a house and hack the zombies with my axe, or just run away.  I can wear a rain coat or light a fire.  There's enough food and water to survive most illnesses and never be hungry or thirsty.  What scares me is meeting another player who might decide to attack me without warning.

 

I know that zombies are due a major overhaul (which I am very much looking forward to) and I hope that we see a rebalance of the availability and quality of food and water, along with increased risk of disease and illness.  I'd like the zombies and the real world to be significantly more challenging.

 

However, I think the devs need to be careful to find a balance which meets the needs of enough players to keep the game alive.  Go too hardcore and the casual gamers (who even in the DayZ world must surely be the vast majority?) will be driven off by a game that's too hard, keep it too softcore and the guys who want the whole anti-game survival sim will lose interest and this will just become a CoD clone.

 

Either way, human interactions will always be the most dangerous but also most rewarding aspect of the game.

[mercules 1290]

Yes, there are periods of unrest in history, however those are the exceptions, not the rule. In general humanity has a strong desire for social interaction and organization and will end up developing a society again to bring that about, often fairly quickly. 7 years of war, however, tend to be more dynamic and influential on history than the 80 years of tranquil peace that preceded it. 

[mercules 1290]

Sadly, I have to say that I think that bandits are a good thing.  Rightly or wrongly, if the Devs removed the ability of players to harm other players, they would be removing the largest challenge the game has.  

 

Ah.... but you see most of us are not saying having that element is bad. I for one play this game for that adrenaline rush when I know I am around another player and wonder about their intentions. What most of us are saying is that when 99% of the players in the game are KoS, ambushing, no interaction "bandits" the game gets really boring really quick. What is more fun? Encountering a player and wondering if they might trade with you or if they are going to try and cook and eat you... OR ...having to shoot every single person you see because every single one of them is going to shoot you or rob you.

 

You need bandits, but when every one is a bandit then there is no longer any point to the game we might as well just play BF/CoD/ARMA III mods like Wasteland.

[reapers239 57]

If this were true the human race would never had survived. However, anthropology and history prove you wrong.

 

 because as of yet we never had real global collapse. where government falls apart and total chaos rules the street. man if ppl dont have wifi these days they all get upset fast, imagine if there is no more food being produced, markets being ran sacked in the first couple of weeks and so on. im talking about worst case scenario, true we do seek to be civilized, but remember the black plague? 

 

my point of view comes from where we as a society most ppl have have desk jobs and credits in the bank, ppl dont know where or how get food the way we did back a few centuries ago. look up the show naked and afraid and they were suppose to be survivalist. 

 

also im not talking about if we make it or not as a species but talking about the choas in between and not the outcome, the period until ppl actually adapts to the new reality.

[krazypenguin 174]

Ah.... but you see most of us are not saying having that element is bad. I for one play this game for that adrenaline rush when I know I am around another player and wonder about their intentions. What most of us are saying is that when 99% of the players in the game are KoS, ambushing, no interaction "bandits" the game gets really boring really quick. What is more fun? Encountering a player and wondering if they might trade with you or if they are going to try and cook and eat you... OR ...having to shoot every single person you see because every single one of them is going to shoot you or rob you.

 

You need bandits, but when every one is a bandit then there is no longer any point to the game we might as well just play BF/CoD/ARMA III mods like Wasteland.

 

Yes, I agree 100%.  

[Jex 1104]

 because as of yet we never had real global collapse. where government falls apart and total chaos rules the street. man if ppl dont have wifi these days they all get upset fast, imagine if there is no more food being produced, markets being ran sacked in the first couple of weeks and so on. im talking about worst case scenario, true we do seek to be civilized, but remember the black plague? 

 

my point of view comes from where we as a society most ppl have have desk jobs and credits in the bank, ppl dont know where or how get food the way we did back a few centuries ago. look up the show naked and afraid and they were suppose to be survivalist. 

 

also im not talking about if we make it or not as a species but talking about the choas in between and not the outcome, the period until ppl actually adapts to the new reality.

 

So you mean thousands of years ago we had governments? That's funny, I thought we developed those over centuries which if true, means we had chaos ruling yet we still managed to join together and build what we have today.

 

Also, how many people do you know that want to go around murdering other people because I don't know anyone and I know a large number of people and that's not counting the people I've met.

 

If a ZA happened, you would love to see another human being. There's absolutely no way on this planet that you wouldn't want to see other people.

[soulfirez 901]

So you mean thousands of years ago we had governments? That's funny, I thought we developed those over centuries which if true, means we had chaos ruling yet we still managed to join together and build what we have today.

 

Also, how many people do you know that want to go around murdering other people because I don't know anyone and I know a large number of people and that's not counting the people I've met.

 

If a ZA happened, you would love to see another human being. There's absolutely no way on this planet that you wouldn't want to see other people

Pretty much this^^ , Its a video game played by people who when it comes to fps games they are being played as straight kill anything that moves so i expect people to be more likely bandits( they arent real bandits really they are just crazed killers as often dont even loot the bodies just shoot and go )

 

BUT PLEASE for fuck sake stop trying to say thats how it would be in real life to justify your play style( you dont need to justify it ,its a game) IF a real zed apoc broke out and 98% of humanity turned into vicious killers wanting to eat the other 2% left alive you better believe what was left of humanity would be pretty happy to see any human that wasnt foaming at the mouth to eat them , and before anyone throws out the oh but legit pyschopaths wouldnt , thats true but the percentage of actual functioning pyscho's is TINY and then figure in the odds what the chance that many of those survived when there is only 1 or 2% of humanity left .

 

Then how long would they last on there own with 98% of the population zeds if any survived the initial event that created all these zeds ( which arent currently in game the tiny zed pop we have lol)

[Whyherro123 2283]

 because as of yet we never had real global collapse. where government falls apart and total chaos rules the street. man if ppl dont have wifi these days they all get upset fast, imagine if there is no more food being produced, markets being ran sacked in the first couple of weeks and so on. im talking about worst case scenario, true we do seek to be civilized, but remember the black plague? 

 

my point of view comes from where we as a society most ppl have have desk jobs and credits in the bank, ppl dont know where or how get food the way we did back a few centuries ago. look up the show naked and afraid and they were suppose to be survivalist. 

 

also im not talking about if we make it or not as a species but talking about the choas in between and not the outcome, the period until ppl actually adapts to the new reality.

That is the thing: "the period until people adapt to the new reality" would be pretty short, between a couple weeks to a couple months. After that, people would get their shit together, and society would begin again. 

[reapers239 57]

So you mean thousands of years ago we had governments? That's funny, I thought we developed those over centuries which if true, means we had chaos ruling yet we still managed to join together and build what we have today.

 

Also, how many people do you know that want to go around murdering other people because I don't know anyone and I know a large number of people and that's not counting the people I've met.

 

If a ZA happened, you would love to see another human being. There's absolutely no way on this planet that you wouldn't want to see other people.

 

i am looking at modern society, basing on how many really know how to live of the land and not only farming. I saying this from former military service in intel where we actually saw that deep scary stuff of what poverty and other areas can do to a person´s mind, how in Iraq a neighbor would tell of his friends stash of ak74s to get some reward  also hence why i mentioned what they do to those steal just two potatoes in Africa. 

 

now ask you this how people you know of that can live without relying on supermarkets? given that depending of whatever disaster, it might have a big effect on crops and etc. like some one noted this scenarios will bring the very best or the very worst out of people. I am not basing on ZA but also weather or nuclear disaster not even counting if the government is running or not. 

 

Also its not about if they can or are capable, is a matter if they can be strong mentally or not to face desperation.   

Edited January 8, 2015 by reapers239

[reapers239 57]

That is the thing: "the period until people adapt to the new reality" would be pretty short, between a couple weeks to a couple months. After that, people would get their shit together, and society would begin again. 

 

dude is easy to assume that it will be quick. look at katrina how long it took to repair it or try to and yet it is not at 100% now that's with a running government. you and try to guess that would be a short period but it all depends on how many are alive, the size of dmg to infrastructures, scarcity of food vs numbers of people.

 

but bottom factor is their mind. Its not as easy or quick as you may think, things move fast today because we are connected and money can be wired in an instant, like i mentioned before i am looking at worst scenario.

Edited January 8, 2015 by reapers239

[Whyherro123 2283]

i am looking at modern society, basing on how many really know to live of the land and not only farming. I saying this from former military service in intel where we actually saw that deep scary stuff of what poverty and other areas can do to a person´s mind. hence why i mentioned what they do to those steal just two potatoes in africa.  

 

now ask you this how people you know of that can live without relying on supermarkets? given that depending of whatever disaster, it might have a big effect on crops and etc. like some one noted this scenarios will bring the very best or the very worst out of people. I am not basing on ZA but also weather or nuclear disaster not even counting if the government is running or not. 

 

Also its not about if they can or are capable, is a matter if they can be strong mentally or not to face desperation.   

FYI, farming is "living off the land". Farming is hard, especially when you lack synthesized fertilizers and machines to till the soil.

[reapers239 57]

FYI, farming is "living off the land". Farming is hard, especially when you lack synthesized fertilizers and machines to till the soil.

 

yes i know is hard, farming vs hunting, shall we? you kill a dear you gut it and skin and a couple of ours you have cooked meat. farming, takes months depending of number/ size of crop but if we are to discuss one tomato it will take one month at least for it grow if i remember right and what are you going to do while you wait for it grow?. raising cattle even more work. Now with everything going crazy do you think ppl will have time to be able to raise crops and cattle? 

 

BUT here is the real question out of 7 billion ppl how many have the skills or know to actually do all that, while they are starving, left out to weather hazards, not protected by your local law or goverment? Katrina was just that my unit was one of those to go for katrina we had reports of 10 year old with 9 mils in hand.  

Edited January 8, 2015 by reapers239

[Whyherro123 2283]

dude is easy to assume that it will be quick. look at katrina how long it took to repair it or try to and yet it is not at 100% now that's with a running government. you and try to guess that would be a short period but it all depends on how many are alive, the size of dmg to infrastructures, scarcity of food vs numbers of people.

 

but bottom factor is their mind. Its not as easy or quick as you may think, things move fast today because we are connected and money can be wired in an instant, like i mentioned before i am looking at worst scenario.

Name a point in time during the entirety of human existence when we have lived without some form of laws, either written or unwritten, and I will call you a liar.

 

PS: the amount of looting and crime that occurred during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina was greatly exaggerated by news media. Most of the "reports" were either completely made up, exaggerated beyond belief, or mere rumors.

 

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/doc/422041076.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Sep%2027,%202005&author=Susannah%20Rosenblatt%20and%20James%20Rainey&pub=Los%20Angeles%20Times&edition=&startpage=A.16&desc=RITA%27S%20AFTERMATH;%20Katrina%20Takes%20a%20Toll%20on%20Truth,%20News%20Accuracy;%20Rumors%20supplanted%20accurate%20information%20and%20media%20magnified%20the%20problem.%20Rapes,%20violence%20and%20estimates%20of%20the%20dead%20were%20wrong

 

http://fair.org/extra-online-articles/demonizing-the-victims-of-katrina/