Improvement Ideas: Amputation and Medicine

[Rucki 6]

So i got some ideas, how to improve the gameplay. I thought more on gameplay issues, than on pure realism

1.) Amputations
The ability to amputate an arm or leg from surrendered survivors with f.e. an machete.

The one who initiate the amputition needs only a machete or saw for this, but the poor survivor or an 3rd player will have to to heal the wounds with rags, alcohol and maybe an machete which was heated in fire ( to close the wound )
Without closing the wounds, the survivor will die fast in time, cause of heavy blood loss.
If the Machete or Saw which was used for amputition, was not heated before the "operation", the patient, may got infectet with sickness.

Taking 1 arm  = Loosing ability to take rifles and 2 arms weapons like axe in hand
But you can use Pistols and Machetes f.e. Longer Reloading Time

Taking 2 arms = Loosing ability to take anything in arms, but you may live, with friends force feeding you.

Taking 1 leg = Without an supporting Item, You can only crawl.With supported Items, you can go normally, but not run. ( Supported Items = Wooden Stick, or other long items like the shovel, maybe we can get an new crafting recipe for an wooden leg )

Taking 2 legs = Crawl only



So we have already cannibalism in game, so i dont think this would be too brutal.
Taking 1 leg or arm, may be good for curing instantly an infection, so it would not only be an option for bandits.
You have to decide to let your actual survivor live further and asking an friend for amputation, or to die on infection without medicine.

Shortform:

Amputator needs
-Sharp Item like Machete, Saw
-Without heating this items in an fire, the victim will get an infection after the operation
-Will instantly cure the victim from all infections, never mind what you take.

Patient needs.
-Rags for stoping bleeding
-Heated Item like Machete, Axe to close the wound
-Without closing the wound, after an short time the wound will start bleeding again
-When got leg taken, an supporting item for going may be usefull



2.) Medicine and Illness System
We really need something new to give the game more deep and to stop KOS.
Not to stop KOSíng at all, because i find it legit for everyone who whants to play like that, to do it, but it would be nice to have an second option, something usefull to not kill somebody, so i thought about medicine as an ingame currency, because medicine should be the most important thing in an apocalypse scenario.

You would think twice about kosing someone or asking him to trade with you, exchanging some medicine or maybe selling him a little bit from you medicine to get his shotgun or axe. If medicine would be important enough ingame, than it might be possible.

So we need more illnesses like:

Headaches = Reduced max view distance ( gotten from running around too long with "thirsty status" )
Pain = shaking effects + the player will have to sit for an moment  ( gotten from shots or melee wounds, amputations )
Catching a Cold = You will get faster cold and needs more often an warm place, like fire. You will make noises. Maybe slower running and will need more food and water. (Getting a cold from running around to long without warm clothes in winter months + to bath in lake or sea )
And last but not least :
Heavy stomach trouble = loosing your eating and drinking status all 10 minutes through vomitation ( eating bad things. Meat without heating it f.e. )

Possible medicines:

Paracetamol for Headaches and Pain
Cough Syrup for Cold-Illness
Antibiotics for Heavy Stomache Trouble

All Medicine should be rare.



So, what do you think about my ideas ?

 
 

Edited December 10, 2014 by Rucki

[Jfiles 439]

Stopping KOS will never happen. Stuff may cut down on it. But it will never cease. Its DayZ. Just never will.

[Whyherro123 2283]

So i got some ideas, how to improve the gameplay. I thought more on gameplay issues, than on pure realism

1.) Amputations

The ability to amputate an arm or leg from surrendered survivors with f.e. an machete.

The one who initiate the amputition needs only a machete or saw for this, but the poor survivor or an 3rd player will have to to heal the wounds with rags, alcohol and maybe an machete which was heated in fire ( to close the wound )

Without closing the wounds, the survivor will die fast in time, cause of heavy blood loss.

If the Machete or Saw which was used for amputition, was not heated before the "operation", the patient, may got infectet with sickness.

Taking 1 arm  = Loosing ability to take rifles and 2 arms weapons like axe in hand

But you can use Pistols and Machetes f.e. Longer Reloading Time

Taking 2 arms = Loosing ability to take anything in arms, but you may live, with friends force feeding you.

Taking 1 leg = Without an supporting Item, You can only crawl.With supported Items, you can go normally, but not run. ( Supported Items = Wooden Stick, or other long items like the shovel, maybe we can get an new crafting recipe for an wooden leg )

Taking 2 legs = Crawl only

So we have already cannibalism in game, so i dont think this would be too brutal.

Taking 1 leg or arm, may be good for curing instantly an infection, so it would not only be an option for bandits.

You have to decide to let your actual survivor live further and asking an friend for amputation, or to die on infection without medicine.

Shortform:

Amputator needs

-Sharp Item like Machete, Saw

-Without heating this items in an fire, the victim will get an infection after the operation

-Will instantly cure the victim from all infections, never mind what you take.

Patient needs.

-Rags for stoping bleeding

-Heated Item like Machete, Axe to close the wound

-Without closing the wound, after an short time the wound will start bleeding again

-When got leg taken, an supporting item for going may be usefull

2.) Medicine and Illness System

We really need something new to give the game more deep and to stop KOS.

Not to stop KOSíng at all, because i find it legit for everyone who whants to play like that, to do it, but it would be nice to have an second option, something usefull to not kill somebody, so i thought about medicine as an ingame currency, because medicine should be the most important thing in an apocalypse scenario.

You would think twice about kosing someone or asking him to trade with you, exchanging some medicine or maybe selling him a little bit from you medicine to get his shotgun or axe. If medicine would be important enough ingame, than it might be possible.

So we need more illnesses like:

Headaches = Reduced max view distance ( gotten from running around too long with "thirsty status" )

Pain = shaking effects + the player will have to sit for an moment  ( gotten from shots or melee wounds, amputations )

Catching a Cold = You will get faster cold and needs more often an warm place, like fire. You will make noises. Maybe slower running and will need more food and water. (Getting a cold from running around to long without warm clothes in winter months + to bath in lake or sea )

And last but not least :

Heavy stomach trouble = loosing your eating and drinking status all 10 minutes through vomitation ( eating bad things. Meat without heating it f.e. )

Possible medicines:

Paracetamol for Headaches and Pain

Cough Syrup for Cold-Illness

Antibiotics for Heavy Stomache Trouble

All Medicine should be rare.

So, what do you think about my ideas ?

 

 

What.

 

Why would you cut off a limb? If the limb is bad enough (assuming no access to advanced medicine.....which is the situation in Day Z) where it warrants being cut off, you are already going to die. Cutting off the limb won't remove the infection. All you did was remove the gangrenous bits, which WOULD help, but a blood infection is possibly, and probably, spread to more than just a localized part of the body.

 

And, you are forgetting the fact that the subject will be subjected to utterly MASSIVE levels of shock if you try to amputate a limb with the process above. The shock from the amputation alone would kill them, THEN there is the rapid loss of blood from the amputated limb, THEN there is the MASSIVE levels of shock AGAIN, from the cauterization, which, by the way, fell out of favor as treatment option about 175 years ago. You are doing more harm than help by amputating with the above method. There are methods of "safely" amputating a limb, but again,  if the infection gets to the point where a whole limb needs to go, you are pretty much fucked, and a bullet in the head would be far more of a mercy.

 

So, no to amputations, much less with a machete. Machetes are blades made for chopping through leafy vegetation, not hacking through bone. A hacksaw? Maybe. You would be better off going through the joint with a sharp knife, and that means the ankle, the knee, or the hip. Which means that that character is essentially useless. 

 

I've made a thread about diseases, you should take a look at it.  (http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/216141-diseases/)

 

And, yes, synthetic medicines would be rare, but with a little know-how, you can prepare "natural" versions of most medicines that would work as well as the pills. I can make antibiotics out of spaghnum moss (which would grow in almost any swampy place in Chernarus) and honey, painkillers out of willow bark, blood-staunching agents out of smashed plantain leaves (which are also edible), and stomach-settlers from a tea made from white pine and wintergreen.

 

Survival is fun. People should really look into it sometimes.

[Rucki 6]

What.

 

Why would you cut off a limb? If the limb is bad enough (assuming no access to advanced medicine.....which is the situation in Day Z) where it warrants being cut off, you are already going to die. Cutting off the limb won't remove the infection. All you did was remove the gangrenous bits, which WOULD help, but a blood infection is possibly, and probably, spread to more than just a localized part of the body.

 

And, you are forgetting the fact that the subject will be subjected to utterly MASSIVE levels of shock if you try to amputate a limb with the process above. The shock from the amputation alone would kill them, THEN there is the rapid loss of blood from the amputated limb, THEN there is the MASSIVE levels of shock AGAIN, from the cauterization, which, by the way, fell out of favor as treatment option about 175 years ago. You are doing more harm than help by amputating with the above method. There are methods of "safely" amputating a limb, but again,  if the infection gets to the point where a whole limb needs to go, you are pretty much fucked, and a bullet in the head would be far more of a mercy.

 

So, no to amputations, much less with a machete. Machetes are blades made for chopping through leafy vegetation, not hacking through bone. A hacksaw? Maybe. You would be better off going through the joint with a sharp knife, and that means the ankle, the knee, or the hip. Which means that that character is essentially useless. 

 

I've made a thread about diseases, you should take a look at it.  (http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/216141-diseases/)

 

And, yes, synthetic medicines would be rare, but with a little know-how, you can prepare "natural" versions of most medicines that would work as well as the pills. I can make antibiotics out of spaghnum moss (which would grow in almost any swampy place in Chernarus) and honey, painkillers out of willow bark, blood-staunching agents out of smashed plantain leaves (which are also edible), and stomach-settlers from a tea made from white pine and wintergreen.

 

Survival is fun. People should really look into it sometimes.

 

Like i wrote, i didnt cared too much for reality, more thought on ideas to improve gameplay and wouldnt it be fun for all the bandits out there to cut off a limb ? Even when i would be got as an victim, i would more like to see something like an amputation than an simply robbery with getting shot after.

 

I didnt thought exactly on an special illness, where it would be usefull to amputate and i definitely did not thought on zombie infection.

But if it is so important, may it be f.e Gangrene illness:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangrene

 

I dont have a really good acknowledgement in medicine, but didnt the doctors in american civil war amputated very many soldiers ? And many of this soldiers survived. Amputation is knowing since 15.Century according to german wikipedia.

 

Pictures from 18th. Century:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amputation#mediaviewer/File:Amputations_18c.jpg

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amputation#mediaviewer/File:Amputationswerkzeug.jpg

 

So what do you would do, in an dayz zombie situation and your friend would got heavy gangrene ?

 

But thumbs up for your diseases thread, you got my beans :)

Edited December 10, 2014 by Rucki

[Deathlove 2286]

You realizing chopping off your limbs with just anything can make matters worse right? Theres a reason hacking off limbs in our American Civil War was considered a death sentence considering our medicines were so crude back than.

 

 

I wouldn't mind this in game but it would be a very grueling process and probably would mean death regardless considering how rare the right tools would be and also considering how after this disaster happened all modern medical practices would be out the window at a certain point.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Deathlove

[Whyherro123 2283]

Like i wrote, i didnt cared too much for reality, more thought on ideas to improve gameplay and wouldnt it be fun for all the bandits out there to cut off a limb ? Even when i would be got as an victim, i would more like to see something like an amputation than an simply robbery with getting shot after.

 

I didnt thought exactly on an special illness, where it would be usefull to amputate and i definitely did not thought on zombie infection.

But if it is so important, may it be f.e Gangrene illness:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangrene

 

I dont have a really good acknowledgement in medicine, but didnt the doctors in american civil war amputated very many soldiers ? And many of this soldiers survived. Amputation is knowing since 15.Century according to german wikipedia.

 

Pictures from 18th. Century:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amputation#mediaviewer/File:Amputations_18c.jpg

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amputation#mediaviewer/File:Amputationswerkzeug.jpg

 

So what do you would do, in an dayz zombie situation and your friend would got heavy gangrene ?

 

But thumbs up for your diseases thread, you got my beans :)

American doctors during the Civil War did amputate many limbs, but they also did not do it correctly (causing a lot of pain and shock for the subject), as well as actually sewing up the stump at the end of the procedure. They usually would not cauterize. And, a lot of soldiers did in fact die from post-amputation infections. Don't forget, the germ theory wasn't really in vogue yet, and many doctors wouldn't sterilize their instruments. A similar process would occur in Day Z, not due to misinformation, but to lack of resources in a post-apocalyptic world. 

 

If my friend developed an infection in a wound, I would have them rest almost 24/7, with them being warm and comfortable (exertion and discomfort leads to a depressed immune system), while having them drink plenty of clean water and eating the best and most of whatever food I had. (being dehydrated or hungry [low on energy] also leads to a decreased immune response) I would also clean up the wound to the best of my ability, by actually applying hard alcohols (yet again, hard 40-50+ proof alcohols are your friend!), clean (boiled) dressings, and washing out the pus with warm water and soap.

 

 IF the wound became gangrenous, I would discuss the situation with them (don't forget, the level of infection where gangrene forms often leads to decreased mental facilities due to fever), and kindly suggest a mercy kill. Life without a limb in a post-apocalyptic world would not be pleasant, both for the amputee and for the rest of the community that now has to work harder in order to both feed/clothe/warm themselves as well as now-unfortunately "dead weight". The amputee would really be limited to "little" tasks, like weaving, basket-making, etc etc. The truth of the matter is, before the "Modern Era" (1600s or so), unless you were important enough to have people already working for you, the loss of a limb usually meant death.

 

Of course, I know how to make/find natural antibiotics, sterile dressings, and soap, so I am probably better off than most people.

[CANUCKinNZ 108]

How about this. At some stage when infected bite you the message says, "My arm, (Or leg, or ear or middle finger.) was bitten" You then have the option to risk a 25% chance of infection and sickness or death or cut off your own arm The Walking Dead style to stop the infection from possible spreading or taking hold.

 

So you decide do you want to have one limb and the consequences the OP said or risk dying or getting sick? 

 

Just a thought. I voted I like medicine idea. 

[Rucki 6]

How about this. At some stage when infected bite you the message says, "My arm, (Or leg, or ear or middle finger.) was bitten" You then have the option to risk a 25% chance of infection and sickness or death or cut off your own arm The Walking Dead style to stop the infection from possible spreading or taking hold.

 

So you decide do you want to have one limb and the consequences the OP said or risk dying or getting sick? 

 

Just a thought. I voted I like medicine idea. 

 

That goes exactly the way i thought :)

 

But how it looks, unfortunately the amputation idea is not so popular.

[VermillionX 78]

Of course amputation isn't a popular idea.

In the course of amputating an arm or leg, you've just fucked yourself permanently, or at least until you die; which the amputation is meant to prevent. Better off to just die and go back and get your stuff. The same situation occurs if someone else amputates your arm/leg. Anyone in that situation would rather suicide than keep playing that permanently screwed character.

[Mookie (original) 799]

This. Amputation is one of the worst suggestions I've ever heard. The loss of function would be so bad that it would make precisely zero sense to keep going.

[Karmaterror 982]

I say yes.....the real problem isn't the amputation mechanic, but players reactions to it. Only peple playing for immersion are going to continue in that kind of state.

 

The stamina system could make this much more viable though. If you had spent a few nights getting west, and knew you had no chance of getting back to your gear then you may elect to play on.

 

If there were death timers like die and you cannot play for 30mins then people may play on and suicide at the end of the night for a fresh spawn next day.

 

So yeah I could see it working its just a case of making playing on more preferable to starting over (could these "soft skills" achieve this maybe  :)

 

Liked all the medical stuff, dunno if that's what the devs are after but the did say there will be more infections and stuff. I think little things like a headache though you would just push through. If a headache is really debilitating I don't see that person being cut out to survive in the apocalypse :)

 

PS suggestion section ;) ....sry to be that guy lol

Edited December 10, 2014 by Karmaterror

[korpisoturi (DayZ) 127]

Amputating fresh spawns goes to my NOPE list with rape and pooping

[blackberrygoo 1416]

I would love this to be in game , it's not a question of keeping things sterile (I mean the apocalypse literally just started In dayz lore ) I highly doubt all sterilizing liquids (including crude alcohol) would be gone from the face of the earth .. I mean we find morphine everywhere , we give the patient a morphine drip using an emptied out saline bag and IV (or just slowly inject morphine into the patient) and then begin the amputation with one of those mid 1900's medical bone saw sterilized (the ones that aren't electric) i think they are specially made to cut bone , but I'm not sure if it's used ante Or post mortem ...

Anyways as long as the patient is under some trance of heavy morphine or knockout gas , the bandages/tools/area were relatively sterile and antibiotics were taken every game day after the amputation , and much rest was given to the amputee Id say it would be perfectly reasonable to be able to amputate in the apocalypse .. especially if we found a hospital room that was somewhat untouched !

The only thing I would be worried about not working is the mechanics of it all , I'm sure though with this new renderer swap and new DX well be able to do a lot of things we weren't able to do and I really hope amputation is one of them :)!

Edit : double amputations should not be in the game though , I can imagine a clan all with their own personal "pets", pets actually being a human with both of his legs cut off being forced to crawl behind it's "master" ... That's too weird for gameplay lol ..

Edited December 10, 2014 by Grapefruit kush

[blaf 63]

Amputating fresh spawns goes to my NOPE list with rape and pooping

You spoil all the fun...

[WolfgangErikson 127]

Amputation is an insanely bad idea for this game. Ignoring the mechanical complications of adding this functionality to the coding and modeling, it provides no benefit to gameplay. I would rather just die. If a bandit came and cut off both my arms, they have essentially "killed" me already, offering me zero reason to keep playing.

 

All this feature would do would be provide the greatest trolling/griefing mechanic ever.

[Briljin 102]

Seriously, did anyone else imagine groups of bandits hunting down bambies so they can leave them with their legs and arms cut off?  People need to remember that this is a game not a real life simulation.  Most people wouldn't eve survive an amputation without medial support and last time I checked, those hospitals aren't staffed. 

[Whyherro123 2283]

Seriously, did anyone else imagine groups of bandits hunting down bambies so they can leave them with their legs and arms cut off?  People need to remember that this is a game not a real life simulation.  Most people wouldn't eve survive an amputation without medial support and last time I checked, those hospitals aren't staffed. 

Exactly. My problem with amputation isn't immersion, it is the fact that very few people would actually survive it in a DayZ-like situation.

[Rucki 6]

Exactly. My problem with amputation isn't immersion, it is the fact that very few people would actually survive it in a DayZ-like situation.

 

But surviving dozens hits from pistol or rifle is ok ? Yeah its enough to take some rags and we can survive, only refilling blood with healthy status through eating and drinking.

 

If you think on realism, then everyone should die shortly after get hit once from an 9mm bullet. I doubt that the survival chance would be higher than 5% in an DayZ RL situation. 

Edited December 10, 2014 by Rucki

[call him Steve 46]

This game is so far out from have the ability to cut off arms/legs. I would rather have beards before amputations. It's just a difficult idea to put in game for 100,000's of people, each having different body limbs missing or not. But the facial hair seems less hard, being that you don't interact with ANYTHING using your face.

[Whyherro123 2283]

But surviving dozens hits from pistol or rifle is ok ? Yeah its enough to take some rags and we can survive, only refilling blood with healthy status through eating and drinking.

 

If you think on realism, then everyone should die shortly after get hit once from an 9mm bullet. I doubt that the survival chance would be higher than 5% in an DayZ RL situation. 

I want that changed as well, as well as adding a more complex and in-depth medical system. If you stood a solid chance of dying due to an infected scrape, people would be much less likely to jump into PvP. PvP would be slower, more well-thought-out, and more deliberate, rather than just for shits and giggles.

[irishroy 1347]

 

NOPE.

 

 

 

IMAGINE you would experience all this.

Would this be "fun"?

 

100% NOT.

 

sorry, but this suggestion...

(if you can exit/respawn any time when doing these things you describe, it's OK. but if not (and you did not mention being able to cancel this "experience"..)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

==> 

 

 

 

 

(a bit harsh, but I think it get's the point across. Not meant offensive, but just..

just..)

 

 

 

 

and before any super-rare medicine is added, we should be able to collect/farm herbs and plants, which do work the same way as medicine (just a bit "weaker" in the effect).

For example birches.

You can tap a birch-tree and drink the birch-water/"juice".

Willow-tree-bark works the same as Aspirin.

Using wet/fresh bark and wrap it around limbs. When the bark dries, it also becomes a lot harder and stiffer, thus stabilizing the arm/leg.

 

 

Edit: Sorry if I overreaced, but just... just....

*gnaaaargh*  *bbrrrrplooolbldk*

Edited December 10, 2014 by irishroy

[blaf 63]

Amputation is an insanely bad idea for this game. Ignoring the mechanical complications of adding this functionality to the coding and modeling, it provides no benefit to gameplay. I would rather just die. If a bandit came and cut off both my arms, they have essentially "killed" me already, offering me zero reason to keep playing.

 

All this feature would do would be provide the greatest trolling/griefing mechanic ever.

Indeed, pretty much the same as force feeding disinfectant, which is already in game however...