Does anyone dislike the "no military stuff" agrument?

[pilgrim* 3513]

Manchester in UK, and New York City, despite assumptions that everywhere in the US has personal firearms rights, is very restrictive in the sense that that only the waethy and well connected can own pistols and semiautomatic rifles and pump action shotguns are outlawed.

 

Chernarus is a fictonal location similar to war torn Iraq or East Ukraine, imagine if dayZ took place in Donetsk or Baghdad, would the anti military crowd still have a leg to stand on?

 

I know late reply. 20 hour flights suck.

 

Yo! Some boring stuff about Baghdad - as you mentioned 'Baghdad'

Here's the summary (in case you all don't want to read it and I don't blame yo for that):

SUMMARY: Most of the guns and munitions brought into this fight were brought and carried by Westerners who did their best not to leave them lying around.

OK - why? what happened ? and how come the USA has more guns per civilian in peacetime than Baghdad civilians had in the middle of a battle?

 

*

In Baghdad (after the war itself) during the 9 months of 'Operation Imposing Law':

In all, around 7,500 civilians were killed during the operation along with more than 1,200 insurgents, almost 100 suicide bombers, and more than 870 members of the Coalition forces, including at least 324 U.S. soldiers (this is one 'official' estimation)

How were the Coalition forces and the civilian casualties caused? : the majority of Coalition soldiers and many civilian casualties were killed by car bombs and suicide bombers, not by weapons fire, or troops were attacked by bomb ambush coupled with short weapons fire attacks The coalition insurgents did have a quantity of assault weapons and rocket weapons, we know, but relied very strongly on manufactured explosive devices, suicide bombers, and on (face to face) murder of unarmed civilians to inflict casualties.The majority of civilian victims were murdered at night by insurgents (using knives, hangings, defenestration, beatings, stoning, and were 'sometimes' shot).

How were the insurgents killed? : The vast majority of insurgent fighters were killed by weapons fire from coalition troops and coalition air attack.

[Note: Previous to this operation, during the war itself, the destruction of Baghdad infrastructure and casualties were entirely caused by USA airborn attacks, ie by coalition weapons, as we know. We watched it on CNN]

The insurgents used weapons fire IF desperate, when completely cornered or taken by surprise (and consistently lost).. or used weapons fire in very SHORT surprise or opportunistic ambushes, and short attacks (for instance on patrols, helicopters, or police stations).

Put it all together:

- the Coalition did a lot of shooting: The Insurgents did much less shooting.

Nevertheless, despite this lack of weapons and the lack of will (or the good sense not to try) to use them in straight armed firefights against coalition forces, the insurgents inflicted considerable (terrible) casualties on civilians, coalition troops, politicians, and also on members of other anti-government insurgent groups (superficially on the 'same side')

This situation can be compared - IMO distantly and with caution - with the situation in the Irish 'Troubles'. The insurgents were at no time armed adequately to fight planned strategic or even tactical firefights against coalition forces. The Coalition had many more men and a vastly greater force of arms. (I say this, but I understand this fact brings no relief to anyone who were themselves or had friends in that situation).

Because there is a great concentration of violence, death, fanaticism, and destruction in a small area - in this case we are considering one city in one year.. this does NOT mean that a large quantity of weapons and munitions are available to the violent faction. In fact the statistics indicate the opposite: overwhelmingly it was the Coalition had the guns and munitions, as well as the air-power, and all this equipment LEFT the area along with the coalition troops. We know of course that the coalition forces made DAMNED SURE it did.

Through the worst days of this 9-month military action aiming to bring peace and Law to Baghdad, to drive out insurgents; you will find that the number of weapons per civilian population in Baghdad was then - and is still - ALWAYS less than the average weapon ownership per civilian of any USA city today, in peacetime USA. (and I intend no offense to US players by this simple unemotional statistical fact)

MOST weapons were brought to Baghdad by the coalition forces, and were taken away again.

Weapons were primarily available to the insurgents from the obvious sources following the war, but there was little or no continuing logistic supply (to give to one you have to take it away from the other). That was all they had to play with. Explosives are MUCH easier to obtain in an industrial environment, where your big fanatic's knife is the law and the police are NOT going to show up.. AND the existence of these (limited) military arms in the hands of a fanatical minority does NOT mean the population of the city was armed AT ALL, or was involved in fighting EXCEPT as unarmed victims.

I am not including the weapons carried by coalition soldiers in the estimate of gun ownership in Baghdad, compared to gun ownership in the USA. Most of the guns and ammunition brought to this fight were carried by Westerners who did their best not to leave them lying around. You guessed it - their orders on that were strict.

And note: I'm not implying these insurgents were 'good guys' in ANY way just because they were under-armed and up against well-armed, constantly resupplied, full Western military units. You know that 3 or 4 guys with 3 weapons and total 25 rounds between them plus a couple of machetes or sharp knives can rule a whole city block of 5000-10000 civilians - if they are ruthless, smart, fanatical, and nasty enough. ..

But none of this means that there are a lot of weapons or munitions lying around anywhere.. in fact, not more than you'll find lying on a Manchester street in Britain on an average Saturday night.

 

xx pilgrim

 

Edited October 29, 2014 by pilgrim

[petetheEat 15]

I like to think that eventually military loot will be a 'final boss' of sorts. It will only spawn at the airports and bases up North, where it will be incredibly dangerous. You want military loot? You'll need a team to help fight the zombies, a car to escape with the marauding hordes that hopefully will roam the map, weapons (bows, axes), food and drink. Finding military loot should be a dangerous adventure. high risk, but high reward.

[JokersWarPig 16]

All the "Survivor man" douche bags who don't want military gear really get on my nerves.

If you want to farm, or hunt, or play against the environment then go up north into the wilderness with nothing but a hunting rifle and bandages. Don't cry because they're adding in more military gear or weapons, there's enough civilian stuff right now that they can add more military or police gear.

I respect that you want to play a certain way, but that doesn't mean this game should be a zombie game with no guns and one or two worth while melee weapons.

 

Even if the game is set years into a zombie apocalypse and we're supposed to be the survivors, why would all of this stuff be just "gone" instead of spawning on us randomly when we first spawn? If we're the only ones left alive then we would have the best gear from the get go (I don't want that mind you, I prefer looking for it).

There should be plenty of small arms in the game, from civilian to military, as well as ammo for them. If they want 100 people servers and a map full of zombies then you'll need weapons and ammo.

What should be rare are attachments for these weapons (except maybe the hunting scope given its for a hunting rifle) and heavier pieces of military equipment like belt fed machine guns.

 

I honestly welcome any piece of military gear that's added to the game, because I'd rather play as a soldier or a riot cop as opposed to a hermit that lives in the mountains. I'm even all for them adding (a very small amount) of heavy military vehicles like APC's and tanks, but these should be limited to like 3 or 4, globally, at any given time.

 

[gannon46 788]

I don't think its that a lot of us hate mil gear we just don't want COD or BF4 a lot of new guys which I'm glad to see more diverse players get the game just for lols where as some get it to survive the zed apocalypse these 2 types clash at times I mean there was a post on the steam forums of some tool saying that he doesn't think most people play for the survival aspect that they need to stop adding those types of things and he stated that they need to add more mil spawns to me he's wrong I bought the game for those very reasons not for PVP but some do and I try not to hate on them even though they seem more in abundance now days. in the future I hope there is something for everyone but I think the game is going to get brutally hard atleast I hope. this game being a sandbox game and the whole make your own story everyone sees a vision of what the game should be but we forget that the vision of the creators is the one we actually are going to see so I try to roll with the punches if they add a bunch of mil gear so be it if they become non-existant rare so be it I just hope the game is hard and authentic to an outbreak/break down of society and that everyone has fun at least sometimes.

[Mightymax 1]

Current 0.50 comes with a brand new shoe degradation system. Yes, footwear gets ruined...if the developers are working on this, weapons very susceptible to wear and tear is just the logic consequence. Manteinance-heavy weapons mean less senseless PvP just for the heck of it and more purposeful PvP.

I agree with this

[Judopunch 523]

Great points here. Personally, I look forward to the day when weapons are low on the list of priorities.

- When medical items like antibiotics and alcohol tincture are worth more than a pair of pristine high caliber firearms.

- Having to search 8-12 hours just to find 5 precious rounds of damaged ammo for a coveted but crappy .22.

- Using tools to fine-tune an inaccurate scope, maybe even finding a pristine piece of glass to replace the cracked piece I used for a month.

- When I can setup Whiskey's World Famous Fish Taco stands along the coast. Not to poison everyone, but just because I'm a Good Guy^TM.

And when this happens then the KOS will tone down as a natural result.

 

When zombies are even more dangerous creating a consequence to shooting that Bambi people will have to think twice about it.

 

When the first version of .49 came out on exp and everyone was starving all the time and all you could do was try to find food I ran into 5 separate players and helped them out. They appreciated it because they were starving and cold. They couldnt attack me because even if they tryed they would have to respawn, and that was more worrying to them then to have the small chance they could get my gun or gear.

[stielhandgranate 480]

Snip

 

 

This isn't a debate on the war in Iraq, don't make it one. Manchester and New York City do not allow the citizenry to possess select fire rifles legally unlike the Iraqi government, past and current, nor are they war zones where local and nearby governments would support Partisan movements. You're delusional if you think small arms are as common in the former. The Argument at hand is that weapons such as the ones depicted in dayz and often requested such as the Saiga 12 would be common place in the environment the developers selected. Had they wanted a weapons list restricted to single shot hunting rifles and wheel guns, they wouldn't have picked a location set in civil war with foreign military involvement.

[pilgrim* 3513]

This isn't a debate on the war in Iraq, don't make it one. Manchester and New York City do not allow the citizenry to possess select fire rifles legally unlike the Iraqi government, past and current, nor are they war zones where local and nearby governments would support Partisan movements. You're delusional if you think small arms are as common in the former. The Argument at hand is that weapons such as the ones depicted in dayz and often requested such as the Saiga 12 would be common place in the environment the developers selected. Had they wanted a weapons list restricted to single shot hunting rifles and wheel guns, they wouldn't have picked a location set in civil war with foreign military involvement.

 

What you say sounds pretty correct to me. I REPLIED to a comment about Baghdad. My reply to a statement about contemporary BAGHDAD does not make this into  "a debate on the war in Iraq", so don't make it one Dale. This is a debate on "a location set in civil war with foreign military involvement". Thank you for noticing. However, . Go find the originators of that unwanted debate and take it up with them, I'm quoting figures to the dude who brought up that topic, not debating at all.

 

People who rely on CNN and YouTube for their understanding of what happens in a "civil war with foreign military involvement" show great ignorance and naivety, they may be - as you claim - possibly "delusional". But being naive and ignorant is not medically "delusional" it is simply unfortunate.

 

I suppose these "delusional" folk you mention think the UK population during the Second World War were all armed with tommy-guns (48,024,000) .. This is a demographic statistic, - my estimate based on the official numbers - not my opinion, not a debate on the Second World War. And as the Soviet Forces moved in to the outskirts of Berlin, the citizens (4,500,000) were all equipped with at least one Schmeisser MP40 plus a thousand rounds each(total 4,500,000,000 rounds) and all that ammo in the baby carriages made it difficult for them to run for cover in the bombardments..

....  not.

 

I am not debating any war in the region called Iraq (there have been many, read your history - start early; start with Babylon 2000 BCE and you'll get more than half the story) - I REPLIED to a situation in a city AFTER the end of a recent invasion. A

'peacetime' military police action following a war. I looked up some statistics, and in this case, they were figures jointly agreed at a given date by the Iraq government and Coalition military authorities. However, varying figures were quoted by both at around the same date. You can check out demographics easily. Do it for yourself. The point I made stands. The point is NOT about any particular region, In fact you hit the nail - it's about "delusion".

 

I agree - watching YouTube helmet-footage, or playing CoD, or flicking through 'Guns and Boobs'  IS easier and more fun than looking into the truth of what happens in situations such as the above.

 

Did I mention - I have NO PROBLEM about guns in DayZ .. I think it's unfortunate that the people who can quote "Saiga 12" with such a clear and well informed idea of what it is and what it does, like those people who know the exact details and performance of classic fast cars, or the whole of the Pokemon catalog - that those same people who want to play games with these guns will say - casually - deeply uninformed things about real world situations, carelessly, as though they are mentioning an old re-run of Zorro they saw last night. But the guns.. oh, the guns they KNOW all about those...

 

Of course you are right - it would be "delusional" to think guns have any relation to real world situations. Selective fire guns only exist for military use, and the military are a tiny proportion of any population. But, the military don't have any relation to the real world either (do they?).. is that your argument?  Have it with someone else.

 

I play this game for fun. I have no problem with guns in DayZ. I am not greatly impressed by "guns" of any kind - in game or in real life. Games that are purely about guns do not attract me much. Technology of all kinds is interesting, I agree - I am an engineer, but not "delusional" and not a "fetishist".. just a DayZ player. Like you Dale That's why we're here, right?

 

The OP must know there is "military stuff" in DayZ and it's not likely to be taken out, and that antibiotics etc. and Lock-picks etc. are sliding into the gameplay too .. Antibiotics after periods of civil war (and zombie plagues?)  are frequently VERY rare black-market items - another historical note, sorry.

 

[ edit: Bohemia is known worldwide for it's military equipment in games and simulations, and we wouldn't expect it to suddenly start matching Street Fighter in melee combos, but in DayZ it is making some new moves: GOOD. There are plenty of intelligent comments in this thread, about how much or how little we need weapons varieties in DayZ, and what quantities of weapons are required for a GOOD GAME. This has completely, totally, nothing to do with   <real life after a civil war and apocalypse .. oh, and also with zombies >. Keep off the "IRL where do you find lots of assault rifles after a civil war in Europe" and you all have a much stronger argument, for or against.

 

If anyone wants to argue about "real life" weapons-locations, argue with someone (else) about the Spanish Civil War (instead, so no one will be offended). I hear they had guns too. ]

 

I already apologized last post for mentioning contemporary fighting that readers may have been directly/indirectly involved in, and also for being boring. Same again.

 

xx

Edited October 31, 2014 by pilgrim

[Schweinsteiger 107]

DayZ doesn't take place on day 1 of the outbreak. The vast majority of these items would be long gone to 1) the military and 2) looters and the like.

Says who? You? I love how people tell us what happened when no one really knows. Massive amounts of military loot would remain long after the beginning of the Zed uprising. You'd just have to figure out where to look. The armed forces in the real world do have secret caches spread around their nation. They're called "armories" and they exist. What about D.U.M.B.'s? DUMB stand for "Deep Underground Military Base" and they also exist in real life.

 

My point is there would be plenty of military gear to be found post-apocalypse, even 20 years down the line. The military pack away surplus weapons very carefully. They would be loaded with cosmoline or some similar modern equivalent and then stored in a hard-shelled container.