Weapons - Where Should They Go Next?

[Count_Blackula (DayZ) 39]

I wouldn't call the Walther PP or MAC-11 obscure, at all. That argument is invalid anyway, because the list of 9x18mm guns is far more obscure than .380 ACP, which is a relatively common pistol caliber. There are no 9x18mm Walthers, no 9x18mm MACs, no 9x18mm Berettas, etc. In fact, there are far more 9x18mm "base model" guns with .380 conversions than .380 "base model" guns with 9x18mm conversions, of which there are very few.

 

If you want to ignore pistols, fine;

• PM-63 RAK | 9x18mm-base model, has .380 PM-73 already in game
• PM-84 Glauberyt | 9x18mm-base model, has a 9x19mm model
• PP-91 Kedr | 9x18mm-base model, no conversions
• Skorpion Vz.61 | .32 ACP-base model, .380, 9x18mm, & 9x19mm, among other conversions
• OTs-02 Kiparis | 9x18mm-base model, no conversions
• Bizon PP-19 | 9x18mm-base model, .380 & 9x19mm, among other converisons
• Arsenal Shipka | 9x18mm-base model, 9x19mm conversions
• APS Stetchkin | 9x18mm-base model, 9x19mm conversions (Machine Pistol)
• OTs-33 Pernach | 9x18mm-base model, no conversions (Machine Pistol)

As you can see, most of them can be replicated with 9x19mm and/or .380 ACP. Yes, there are more 9x18mm SMGs than that, but that's just a general overview.

 

I never thought having 9x18mm OR .380 ACP was necessary, considering there's nothing that .22LR, 9x19mm, .45 ACP, and .357 Magnum really couldn't do already. However, with a larger overall variety of guns chambered in .380 ACP and most Eastern Bloc guns having conversions available, in addition to completely avoiding confusion, .380 ACP was a perfectly fine alternative.

 

Basically, it just boils down to the stupid, but still recognizable issue of confusion. You can quite clearly see that MOST of these guns are available across the board, but the real reason .380 ACP was chosen over 9x18mm is because the devs did not want two bullets called after "9mm" ingame. It's a stupid issue, and I would've been okay with either, but honestly the potential for both is just a bunch of pistols & SMGs, and not every single design is going to be added from either, so .380 ACP allows for the greatest variance.

Missing my primary point which is that 9x18mm is endemic to Russia Eastern-bloc states. The .380 is primarily used in the homes of Americans for recreational shooting. Personally I think the developers should do everything they can to foster a unique post- Soviet kinda of feeling in DayZ. I think games like STALKER and Metro 2033 are a good example to follow when attempting to build a apocalyptic zombie horror/survival type game and I'll admit my admiration for these games factors in a good amount when thinking about DayZ. The 9x18mm Makarov is iconic in many Eastern European countries and as a gun nut I think it would add to the kind of atmosphere that STALKER and co seem to ooze. 

 

My secondary point was that most weapons chambered in .380 are extremely uncommon variants of weapons originally chambered for other ammunition and every single weapon except for the Skorpion you listed there is a token variant of a weapon that was originally manufactured with 9x18 M in mind. Sorry but a .380 Makarov just feels wrong to me but as I've said I'm a big fan of firearms and I'm pretty biased in that regard. 

 

From your previous posts it seems like you belong in the camp that doesn't really have any motivation to cultivate a unique feel and tone in DayZ through the medium of firearms & ammunition. You just want balance and variety judging by your suggestions of adding weapons like the hideous F2000 and TAR-21. That's absolutely fine and you're entitled to your opinion. You've even justified the existence of weapons like these by using quotes by Chris Torchia that seem to open the door to any type of weapon imaginable being inserted in to Chernarus. But as I've said, I would really like to preserve that lovely and neglected bleak post-Soviet feel that would lend itself so well to DayZ.

 

By the way your arguing style comes off as very abrasive sometimes, don't know whether you mean it or not but just chill it's just a light-hearted discussion.

 

edit: yes the whole debacle about not wanting to add two 9mm cartridges because it would have blown newbies minds was stupid.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Count_Blackula

[Count_Blackula (DayZ) 39]

The renderer is being rebuilt, the only actual overviews we've had of the Chernarus+ terrain are from ports to ArmA 3 and that's not representative of what you see in DayZ (keep in mind that ArmA 3 had few forests).

I never suggested making it easy, perhaps they could even borrow the Take On Helicopters flight system, which actually requires you to have some knowledge of aircraft before going into it, so that you wouldn't just have some freshspawn running to the NWAF and hopping into a Huey.

 

Having a functioning car isn't really where the final progression of the game should be, to me. There should be a point in which you are actually noticeably capable beyond "normal standards", and if that means having tanks instead of helicopters (or cars/trucks armored up like tanks), then that's what has to be done.

 

Getting to an AK with one magazine and an old beat up Lada is not something that I want to be my proudest moment.

Seems like you're on a completely different page to myself, a large chunk of the community and probably the development team.

[killerkarrit 0]

javelin missiles

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Missing my primary point which is that 9x18mm is endemic to Russia Eastern-bloc states. The .380 is primarily used in the homes of Americans for recreational shooting. Personally I think the developers should do everything they can to foster a unique post- Soviet kinda of feeling in DayZ. I think games like STALKER and Metro 2033 are a good example to follow when attempting to build a apocalyptic zombie horror/survival type game and I'll admit my admiration for these games factors in a good amount when thinking about DayZ. The 9x18mm Makarov is iconic in many Eastern European countries and as a gun nut I think it would add to the kind of atmosphere that STALKER and co seem to ooze. 

 

My secondary point was that most weapons chambered in .380 are extremely uncommon variants of weapons originally chambered for other ammunition and every single weapon except for the Skorpion you listed there is a token variant of a weapon that was originally manufactured with 9x18 M in mind. Sorry but a .380 Makarov just feels wrong to me but as I've said I'm a big fan of firearms and I'm pretty biased in that regard. 

 

From your previous posts it seems like you belong in the camp that doesn't really have any motivation to cultivate a unique feel and tone in DayZ through the medium of firearms & ammunition. You just want balance and variety judging by your suggestions of adding weapons like the hideous F2000 and TAR-21. That's absolutely fine and you're entitled to your opinion. You've even justified the existence of weapons like these by using quotes by Chris Torchia that seem to open the door to any type of weapon imaginable being inserted in to Chernarus. But as I've said, I would really like to preserve that lovely and neglected bleak post-Soviet feel that would lend itself so well to DayZ.

 

By the way your arguing style comes off as very abrasive sometimes, don't know whether you mean it or not but just chill it's just a light-hearted discussion.

 

edit: yes the whole debacle about not wanting to add two 9mm cartridges because it would have blown newbies minds was stupid.

Oh I agree, if it were up to me I would've added 9x18mmM instead of .380 ACP, were I given the choice (yet I don't believe either is inherently necessary)

 

I absolutely want a unique feel and tone (feel doesn't really work here because it's completely subjective whereas the developers' tone is a "factual opinion") through firearms. However, yes, I personally see variety as a key influence on creating a unique feel. When I use the term "gameplay", I use it vary sparingly (although my previous posts would seem to contradict that). I do not at all want a completely balanced and/or straightforward experience, I love the idea of asymmetric gameplay that DayZ campaigns very well.

 

However, my feelings toward gameplay come into play when you have to make some less-than-authentic/realistic decisions in order to increase the depth of gameplay. What do I mean by this? I'd say the AKM is a picturesque example of this. AK-type rifles are undoubtedly the most common AR-type rifles in almost every post-Soviet state, the AKM being the most prevalent. Of all guns we have, the AKM would (probably) be the most common rifle, and maybe even firearm in general, in the real world (yes, there would be similarly high numbers of the Mosin/SKS/IZH-43, but I digress.) Maybe this is just me, but I don't believe the game experience would be improved if the majority of people were using the AKM and ignoring other rifles like the Sporter-22 & CR527 almost completely. While it's not the most realistic scenario, I do believe that having "weapon progression" rarity, where the "better" guns are rarer based on all multitudes of factors, is more beneficial to the game, than having the most common real guns be the most common in-game guns. Obviously outliers like the Engraved 1911 and other party piece weapons exist and are rarer than most "regular" weapons while still being more uncommon, but that's the purpose they serve.

 

The reason why I campaign for the TAR-21 & FN F2000 is not only because of what the developers have said, but simply because they're not even out of place realistically. Quite a few different special operations forces across central & eastern Europe utilize the TAR-21 & F2000. Yes, they're in limited numbers and as I've stated special operations, so the likelihood of actually finding one would be quite low, I just take issue when people say that they "don't fit the setting at all", when they clearly do. And yes, I do believe there are many benefits to the overall gameplay of DayZ that would arise from having separate 5.56x45mm bullpup rifles, so of course I'm going to argue for that as a positive.

 

I'm a large fan of firearms too, I like guns of all kinds. In fact, you wouldn't believe how angry I was when the developers stated they wouldn't be adding 5.45x39mm way back when in January. Since then they've changed their minds, but nonetheless, I was very, very upset with the fact. I've just adopted a new ideology tethered towards a large mix of gameplay and realism, because personally I don't see DayZ as a simulator and that too much of either upsets the overall experience.

 

Metro 2033 & STALKER have the same "authentic feel" that DayZ does, but their weapon setups aren't any better, if they aren't worse. Metro 2033 is mostly fictional guns, which is fair considering the game takes place in the future. However, the only REAL guns in the game are the AK-74, VSK-94, and DShK, and the rest are mockups of various other rifles, so it's really hard to call the weapon setup realistic.

STALKER, however, really takes the cake for non-Eastern bloc weapons. It's got the Beretta 92FS, Browning Hi-Power, Colt M1911A1, USP Compact, SIG P220, Walther P99, DESERT EAGLE, L85A1, F2000, G36, SIG-550, Z&M LR-300, Mossberg Maverick 88, SPAS-12, MP5A3, SIG GL5040/M203, and, of course, a gauss rifle.

 

The 92FS, Browning HP, M1911, & MP5A3 are quite common internationally, but the rest of them are used in limited numbers across Eastern Europe (very few of them in Ukraine), mainly by special operations & irregular forces.

Yes, most of the outside weapons came from mercenaries, a heavily modernized Ukrainian military, arms dealers, and in general large amounts of people flooding into the zone for profit, but that's still a fictional plot scenario that could just as easily be devised in order to allow them into DayZ. That, and there's a Desert Eagle, which is one of the most redundant & overused firearms to date, and is only used by ONE military group in actuality; the Polish GROM.

So honestly, if you're going to use those other games as a reference point, then you mustn't have a problem with guns like the F2000 & TAR-21.

 

Seems like you're on a completely different page to myself, a large chunk of the community and probably the development team.

Which way, exactly?

 

Helicopters have been confirmed, so clearly I'm not That out of touch with the developers, at least in that regard. With the community and you, well, I'm not exactly sure what you want. I just would like the endgame to be more than having four 9x19mm bullets and a half-empty tan of baked beans.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Chaingunfighter

[Whyherro123 2283]

Bayonets. Easy to use, efficient ( a knife bayonet is also usable as a combat knife, utility knife, and wire cutter), and effective, especially when your foe runs straight at you and makes no attempt to dodge ( AKA zeds)

 

Use it in room-clearing, when low on ammunition ( Why waste a bullet on that bambi?), or when you want to scare the piss out of the enemy. 

 

Especially if this central loot economy keeps on lowering the spawn rate of ammunition, I expect bayonets to come to the forefront of combat again.

[Deathlove 2280]

If they do one of the classic LMGs from the mod i think the M249 SAW needs to be able to use BOTH the stanag magazines the M4A1 can use as well as the M249 Belt feed ammo.

 

If they do the RPK it SHOULD be able to handle both the RPK magazines as well as the normal AK magazines. Both guns are very compatible with there respective Nato and AK ammo counterpart assault rifles. At least in the mod they are.

[gannon46 788]

The renderer is being rebuilt, the only actual overviews we've had of the Chernarus+ terrain are from ports to ArmA 3 and that's not representative of what you see in DayZ (keep in mind that ArmA 3 had few forests).

I never suggested making it easy, perhaps they could even borrow the Take On Helicopters flight system, which actually requires you to have some knowledge of aircraft before going into it, so that you wouldn't just have some freshspawn running to the NWAF and hopping into a Huey.

 

Having a functioning car isn't really where the final progression of the game should be, to me. There should be a point in which you are actually noticeably capable beyond "normal standards", and if that means having tanks instead of helicopters (or cars/trucks armored up like tanks), then that's what has to be done.

 

Getting to an AK with one magazine and an old beat up Lada is not something that I want to be my proudest moment.

i thought I read somewhere that the dev's are taking the flight controls from take on helicopters or at least a version much like it.

[hyerjohn 5]

Air Rifle and Pelet Gun

[Chaingunfighter 917]

i thought I read somewhere that the dev's are taking the flight controls from take on helicopters or at least a version much like it.

Well DayZ does use a modified Take on Helicopters engine (a very heavily modified version at this point), so there's no real reason why they couldn't do it.

But helicopters aren't really for this thread.

[Katana67 2907]

Here is my favorite scope of all time. Chances of it making it into the game: 5%

http://images2.opticsplanet.com/365-240-ffffff/opplanet-trijicon-rfx-42mm-6pt5-moa-amb-dot-sgt-blk-15-fltp-mnt-rx30-23-front-v1.jpg

 

Chances might go up, at least on the "real-world precedent" side of things.

 

 

Interesting to see people still so unrelenting and fundamentalist about having only Warsaw Pact gear in DayZ.

 

We've got an M4A1, we've got a tactical 1911, we've got an MP5K, we've got an Amphibian S, we've got an FN FNX/P, we've got a multi-thousand-dollar Blaser B95, we're getting .308  Winchester, we're getting a Steyr AUG.

 

We've got two AKs, we've got a Makarov, we've got a PM-73, we've got a Mosin, we've got an SKS, we're getting an AKS-74U, we're getting 5.45x39, we're getting an SVD.

 

I think the jury's pretty well out on the diversity present in DayZ's weapon lineup, from a standpoint of "origin."

Edited September 24, 2014 by Katana67

[General Zod 1114]

Sorry Xbow you're still not thinking BIG enough, it has to go further and harder than that, plus, adding every fricking military firearm and scope known to man. What is scary is when I hear comments like 'its in CS though´or others to that effect makes me see where some people want to take this game.

You guys are so small minded

[Legio23 82]

You guys are so small minded

How can anyone argue with that ! :beans:

[Count_Blackula (DayZ) 39]

Chances might go up, at least on the "real-world precedent" side of things.

 

 

Interesting to see people still so unrelenting and fundamentalist about having only Warsaw Pact gear in DayZ.

 

We've got an M4A1, we've got a tactical 1911, we've got an MP5K, we've got an Amphibian S, we've got an FN FNX/P, we've got a multi-thousand-dollar Blaser B95, we're getting .308  Winchester, we're getting a Steyr AUG.

 

We've got two AKs, we've got a Makarov, we've got a PM-73, we've got a Mosin, we've got an SKS, we're getting an AKS-74U, we're getting 5.45x39, we're getting an SVD.

 

I think the jury's pretty well out on the diversity present in DayZ's weapon lineup, from a standpoint of "origin."

I just want the bulk of weapons to be native Chernarussian. I have no problem whatsoever with NATO firearms being added in fact the more the merrier. Soviet weapons should spawn in barracks and general military spawns while NATO weapons should spawn at heli sites. There would obviously be a few cross overs especially with firearms chambered in 9mm Parabellum simply because it's so widespread.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

I just want the bulk of weapons to be native Chernarussian. I have no problem whatsoever with NATO firearms being added in fact the more the merrier. Soviet weapons should spawn in barracks and general military spawns while NATO weapons should spawn at heli sites. There would obviously be a few cross overs especially with firearms chambered in 9mm Parabellum simply because it's so widespread.

That's an arbitrary line, though, because not all NATO firearms are inherently better than Warsaw Pact weapons, especially in the perspective of a video game.

 

There'd be no real incentive to use most of the NATO equivalents when the Warsaw Pact ones are more common as well as ammunition is more abundant. Granted, I do like the system they've set up now, and currently the FNX-45 & M4A1 are limited to crashsites because they're innately the "best" of their group as the game stands (FNX-45 having quite a few attachments & the M4A1 being super modular). However, I don't think any gun should be limited on terms of the weapon's origin alone.

 

Otherwise, you'd have guns like the LongHorn, Magnum, and Blaze 95 being super rare simply because they're not prevalent in real Eastern Europe, even though there's nothing really special about them.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Chaingunfighter

[Katana67 2907]

I just want the bulk of weapons to be native Chernarussian. I have no problem whatsoever with NATO firearms being added in fact the more the merrier. Soviet weapons should spawn in barracks and general military spawns while NATO weapons should spawn at heli sites.

 

But if Chernaruska Zbrojovka (the only in-universe firearms manufacturer of Chernarus) made a SCAR lookalike (call it the CR 17H) then it would be Chernarussian-made.

[Count_Blackula (DayZ) 39]

But if Chernaruska Zbrojovka (the only in-universe firearms manufacturer of Chernarus) made a SCAR lookalike (call it the CR 17H) then it would be Chernarussian-made.

Yeah but would that happen in reality? Since when have poor Eastern European countries been licensed to produce modern expensive Western firearms. Using your example, if the 'CR-17H' spawned rarely then I wouldn't have a problem, maybe the Chernarus Defence Force did license produce SCARs for their special forces. I'd just personally prefer to maintain a level of authenticity and viability when it comes to weapon selection. If we say 'oh well Chernarus is a fictional country based on a myriad of real life countries so there's no boundaries to cross' then we might as well imagine the CDF using astronaut suits as their standard battle fatigues and license producing gatling guns as their primary infantry weapon system. 

Edited September 24, 2014 by Count_Blackula

[Count_Blackula (DayZ) 39]

That's an arbitrary line, though, because not all NATO firearms are inherently better than Warsaw Pact weapons, especially in the perspective of a video game.

 

There'd be no real incentive to use most of the NATO equivalents when the Warsaw Pact ones are more common as well as ammunition is more abundant. Granted, I do like the system they've set up now, and currently the FNX-45 & M4A1 are limited to crashsites because they're innately the "best" of their group as the game stands (FNX-45 having quite a few attachments & the M4A1 being super modular). However, I don't think any gun should be limited on terms of the weapon's origin alone.

 

Otherwise, you'd have guns like the LongHorn, Magnum, and Blaze 95 being super rare simply because they're not prevalent in real Eastern Europe, even though there's nothing really special about them.

This isn't a first person shooter game though really so maintaining this perfect spawn balance between weapons shouldn't really be top priority. I've said it a billion times but my primary desire when it comes to weapons is authenticity combined with a nice varied selection. It's just got to be a matter of fact that some weapons are going to be better than others and some weapons are going to be similar in function. I do think it would be nice if the devs provided an incentive to pick rarer NATO weapons over other guns through modularity and accuracy, but in real life an M4 is just going to be superior to an AK in some ways and inferior in other ways. What matters is choice.

[Killawife 599]

They should work on the melee system. At least two different attacks and the ability to block would be excellent. Nothing fancy is needed but its kinda lame as it is now.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

This isn't a first person shooter game though really so maintaining this perfect spawn balance between weapons shouldn't really be top priority. I've said it a billion times but my primary desire when it comes to weapons is authenticity combined with a nice varied selection. It's just got to be a matter of fact that some weapons are going to be better than others and some weapons are going to be similar in function. I do think it would be nice if the devs provided an incentive to pick rarer NATO weapons over other guns through modularity and accuracy, but in real life an M4 is just going to be superior to an AK in some ways and inferior in other ways. What matters is choice.

 

And I completely agree with you, there should obviously be incentives and sacrifices you have to make when picking weapons, with no "true best" weapon, but some clearly better than others to most people.

 

I just don't like the idea of making a gun rarer on the fact, and on that fact alone that it was (probably) made in the United States, Belgium, Austria, the UK, or Germany, rather than Russia or anywhere else outside of Eastern Europe, unless the weapon it-self's purpose is to be a "rare, but cool" gun. I'd prefer guns we add to have a point, and variety alone is meaningless when you have, in essence, zero REAL incentive to pick something up.

 

 

 

They should work on the melee system. At least two different attacks and the ability to block would be excellent. Nothing fancy is needed but its kinda lame as it is now.

 

I don't know that they should be creating some melee fighting simulator, but it'd be nice to at least have a regular attack and a "charge up" attack that uses greater force and is possibly able to break through someone's block.

Now, a super in depth melee system would obviously be awesome, but there are so many different combat styles in real life, and taking the time to create a huge system for that would be so much unnecessary work.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Chaingunfighter

[General Zod 1114]

Blaze should get some love and ability to attach a scope, be that PU or LRS, makes more sense than the 4x zoom PSU on AKM. 

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Blaze should get some love and ability to attach a scope, be that PU or LRS, makes more sense than the 4x zoom PSU on AKM. 

Blaze having the PU wouldn't make sense at all, and the PSO-1 mounting on an AKM is very possible.

 

However, I would like to see the LRS or even a dedicated hunting scope for the Sporter-22, CR527, and possibly Blaze (I don't really see the necessity of a scope for it, though).

[Legio23 82]

Yeah but would that happen in reality? Since when have poor Eastern European countries been licensed to produce modern expensive Western firearms. Using your example, if the 'CR-17H' spawned rarely then I wouldn't have a problem, maybe the Chernarus Defence Force did license produce SCARs for their special forces. I'd just personally prefer to maintain a level of authenticity and viability when it comes to weapon selection. If we say 'oh well Chernarus is a fictional country based on a myriad of real life countries so there's no boundaries to cross' then we might as well imagine the CDF using astronaut suits as their standard battle fatigues and license producing gatling guns as their primary infantry weapon system. 

 

Sorry to burst your bubble there but I can cite several 'poor' Eastern European countries that manufacture AR 15s and such, take for example Luvo who are a Czech company. Not only does this company make ARs in the standard 5.56 NATO they also do them in a plethora other calibers including the 7.62x39. Zastava which is a Serbian company produces some Sig clone pistols. FB which is a Polish company is starting to produce something that mightily resembles a SCAR and is in the running to become the new Polish assault rifle. I could of course name other companies from other 'poor Eastern European' countries but I think you get the idea.

 

Take a look at the links.

 

http://www.luvo.cz/products/rifles/cz-2003-blueline-n-320.html

 

http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/militaryproduct/cz-999-compact

 

https://pl-pl.facebook.com/pages/Fabryka-Broni-%C5%81ucznik-Radom/146617785399294

[General Zod 1114]

Blaze having the PU wouldn't make sense at all, and the PSO-1 mounting on an AKM is very possible.

 

However, I would like to see the LRS or even a dedicated hunting scope for the Sporter-22, CR527, and possibly Blaze (I don't really see the necessity of a scope for it, though).

I said PU only for the limited scope numbers we have, I know it wouldn't fit. And I know PSO can be fitted on AKM, but the magnification is too high really for a rifle. 

Scope for Blaze makes more sense than for Sporter, that gun is to weak for long range. Blaze on the other hand is firing full size cartridge and has long barrels, it's a high power gun. And the gun it's based takes scopes http://www.blaser.de/index.php?id=56&L=1 

[Chaingunfighter 917]

I said PU only for the limited scope numbers we have, I know it wouldn't fit. And I know PSO can be fitted on AKM, but the magnification is too high really for a rifle. 

Scope for Blaze makes more sense than for Sporter, that gun is to weak for long range. Blaze on the other hand is firing full size cartridge and has long barrels, it's a high power gun. And the gun it's based takes scopes http://www.blaser.de/index.php?id=56&L=1 

That's why I suggested implementing a mid-range hunting scope. Plus, Rugers are incredibly accurate rifles, they just don't have a lot of stopping power, but they'd still be efficient with a medium ranged scope, mainly for hunting, as (IMO) the Sporter isn't intended for serious combat anyway.

Point is I'd give the CR-527 & Sporter get optics BEFORE the Blaze, but if all three can be done then more power to everyone.

[gibonez 3633]

That's why I suggested implementing a mid-range hunting scope. Plus, Rugers are incredibly accurate rifles, they just don't have a lot of stopping power, but they'd still be efficient with a medium ranged scope, mainly for hunting, as (IMO) the Sporter isn't intended for serious combat anyway.

Point is I'd give the CR-527 & Sporter get optics BEFORE the Blaze, but if all three can be done then more power to everyone.

 

A non variable fixed zoom scope would be perfect for alot of these guns.